The C7 Assault Rifle, M16, & AR15 family (C7A1, C7A2, C7 replacment, and C7 vs M16)

[Dissident]

Dr Roberts is knowledgeable and a great resource. I engaged him regarding ballistics vest and their testing and he sent me some very useful information. (Info I used to send a memo regarding the upcoming replacement of the MP OPD vest.)

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Thanks for all replies guys....really appreciate those of you that take the time to actually educate
those of us who ask for help.


Sincerely, Matthewz. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Just got the transfer notice in the mail for my Irunguns DPMS complete with "Magic Poo Dust" When I clean it I will save that Poo dust and sell it to some Afghan Vet missing the sandbox!

 

[MilEME09]

Going to CT ammo where you see a considerable reduction in ammo weight for equal performance downrange is almost a generational improvement, but the cost of switching is so high that it's got to be a fully developed system.

If you go on the DAWN, you can find the SARP timeline, which lays out that the replacement for the C7, and C9 with use CT Ammo. Infact from what i've read and heard the plan is for a made in Canada bullpup design 5.556 CT ammo and work with this integrated soldier system project

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

Just got the transfer notice in the mail for my Irunguns DPMS complete with "Magic Poo Dust" When I clean it I will save that Poo dust and sell it to some Afghan Vet missing the sandbox!

Never fired and only dropped once type of thing?

 

[NavyShooter]

If you go on the DAWN, you can find the SARP timeline, which lays out that the replacement for the C7, and C9 with use CT Ammo. Infact from what i've read and heard the plan is for a made in Canada bullpup design 5.556 CT ammo and work with this integrated soldier system project

I was at a Small Arms Conference in G-town a year or so ago and saw the presentation on this from DRDC.  They even had an ergonomic bullpup model that they were using to demonstrate.

The idea of a designed and built in Canada small arm is pretty neat, and using the CT ammo is a logical progression.

The really neat part was the integrated optic/network that they were proposing.  Think wifi connected optics with target designation systems in them as overlays.

NS

 

[Loachman]

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featured/prime-time/867432237001/made-in-canada-colt-firearms/3659630288001

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Never fired and only dropped once type of thing?

Likely used by Ugandan Security forces, likely never fired and never dropped, but a tad banged up.

 

[KevinB]

I was at a Small Arms Conference in G-town a year or so ago and saw the presentation on this from DRDC.  They even had an ergonomic bullpup model that they were using to demonstrate.

The idea of a designed and built in Canada small arm is pretty neat, and using the CT ammo is a logical progression.

The really neat part was the integrated optic/network that they were proposing.  Think wifi connected optics with target designation systems in them as overlays.

NS

And most civilized armies are dumping bullpups for the problems they have as combat rifles...

Optics - gawd - don't get me started.
Battery burn from wifi stuff is incredible - FWS stuff down here is like that (and hopefully doomed to failure).

 

[x_para76]

Hey I'm looking into ordering a Daniels Defence rifle through Wolverine.com and I'm just wondering if anyone here has any experience with this and can tell me what the turn around time is (assuming the rifle I want is in stock)?

Furthermore do I need to have a membership at a gun club prior to purchasing the rifle? I realize that I must have a gun club membership to use the rifle and to get an ATT but I figure I will get the rifle before the membership if I can.

 

[PuckChaser]

You just need a restricted to purchase. For it to leave your house you need a gun club membership and ATT.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

To get back on topic:

More and more units are adopting the C8A2 in large quantities. MPs being one. Is the shortened effective range of the C8 enough for infantry units to adopt in combat that is more heavily urbanised? Conversely, are we losing capabilities with more widespread adoption of the C8.

 

[Dissident]

To get back on topic:

More and more units are adopting the C8A2 in large quantities. MPs being one. Is the shortened effective range of the C8 enough for infantry units to adopt in combat that is more heavily urbanised? Conversely, are we losing capabilities with more widespread adoption of the C8.

No.

IIRC the muzzle velocity difference between a 20" C7 and a 16" C8 gives an effective range, where the M855 (~C77 Ball) will fragment reliably, of 150m and 90m respectively. So you "lose" about 60m where the rounds MIGHT not have as good of an effect. Which considering that a (my) section has other weapon systems integral to it which cover this gap/range, I think it is NBD. Lets also throw in there that there is some ammo available (to US forces and I suspect Cansof)  that nullify the drawbacks (Mk 262 and Mk 318).

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

To get back on topic:

More and more units are adopting the C8A2 in large quantities. MPs being one. Is the shortened effective range of the C8 enough for infantry units to adopt in combat that is more heavily urbanised? Conversely, are we losing capabilities with more widespread adoption of the C8.

Curious to see what the US Army has to report since switching from the 20'' M16A2 to the 14.5'' M4.

 

[KevinB]

Sorry for the delays - I have been out and about.

Most shoulder fired weapon systems the range is related to the user and optic - not the weapon.

a .338LM with an Aimpoint and unskilled user, is not going to be the same as the same platform with a 5-25x optic and a skilled user.

The US Army pretty much exclusively uses the Aimpoint M68 CCO (a 1x red dot - though several different versions of the CCO exist).
  The users ability to correctly adjust for bullet drop and PID a target - as well as adjust the fall of shot is significantly impacted past 200m with that.

The M16/M4 is a pretty much dead argument -- USMC shooters have Highest Possible scored the USMC/Navy qual out to 500m with the M4A1.

Hits on target kill the enemy in a longer ranged battle - and at a few hundred meters - no enemy will know if its a C7 or C8...
 

 

[Mister Donut]

Just curious, anyone here going to grab a Diemaco/Colt Canada SA20/C7 or SA15.7/C8 or is that being discussed in another thread?  I really, really wanted one but it’s beyond my pay grade for now.

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

Jawohl.

What of the 556's ability to tumble at various ranges at the lower velocities associated with the shorter carbine barrel?

Sorry for the delays - I have been out and about.

Most shoulder fired weapon systems the range is related to the user and optic - not the weapon.

a .338LM with an Aimpoint and unskilled user, is not going to be the same as the same platform with a 5-25x optic and a skilled user.

The US Army pretty much exclusively uses the Aimpoint M68 CCO (a 1x red dot - though several different versions of the CCO exist).
  The users ability to correctly adjust for bullet drop and PID a target - as well as adjust the fall of shot is significantly impacted past 200m with that.

The M16/M4 is a pretty much dead argument -- USMC shooters have Highest Possible scored the USMC/Navy qual out to 500m with the M4A1.

Hits on target kill the enemy in a longer ranged battle - and at a few hundred meters - no enemy will know if its a C7 or C8...

 

[KevinB]

Rifled bullets do not tumble -- they yaw  at least modern boattail designs.

If impact velocities are high enough (variable depending on bullet materials, jacket type and thickness) depending on the tissue type and depth - then the bullet will do something else -- in the case of C77/SS109 type ammunition, it often fragments at the cannelure.

You can open a whole different can of worms on ammunition types - but if we stick to a standard NATO ball round, you will see reliable fragmentation above 2500fps impact speed (once again everything else being equal), and enough depth of tissue (lets say 6-7" for this purpose).

Below that the bullet will yaw but will stay together barring an impact with bone (which will also cause secondary fragments).

People generally die of bullet wounds one of two ways 1) CNS hit with destroys the brain stem 2) Lack of Oxygen to the brain.  With #1 your looking at a very small target area - generally not viable for the general purpose forces regardless of range.
With number #2 - your looking to may the target leak blood like a faucet - either internally or externally by massive damage to organs and the circulatory system.  (which is why Center of Mass shooting in a misnomer, its should be high thoracic area, or center of visible mass for a reduced signature target.

Given the C77/M855/SS109 bullet design and fragmentation envelope - it really does not matter if you shoot the target at 250m with a C7 or C8.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Apparently the French were looking at a non bullpup replacement for the FAMAS, but the cost of retrofitting and their vehicles and storage racks racks is causing them to have 2nd thoughts. 

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

Ack. Thanks! What of 556 at very close ranges?

Rifled bullets do not tumble -- they yaw  at least modern boattail designs.

If impact velocities are high enough (variable depending on bullet materials, jacket type and thickness) depending on the tissue type and depth - then the bullet will do something else -- in the case of C77/SS109 type ammunition, it often fragments at the cannelure.

You can open a whole different can of worms on ammunition types - but if we stick to a standard NATO ball round, you will see reliable fragmentation above 2500fps impact speed (once again everything else being equal), and enough depth of tissue (lets say 6-7" for this purpose).

Below that the bullet will yaw but will stay together barring an impact with bone (which will also cause secondary fragments).

People generally die of bullet wounds one of two ways 1) CNS hit with destroys the brain stem 2) Lack of Oxygen to the brain.  With #1 your looking at a very small target area - generally not viable for the general purpose forces regardless of range.
With number #2 - your looking to may the target leak blood like a faucet - either internally or externally by massive damage to organs and the circulatory system.  (which is why Center of Mass shooting in a misnomer, its should be high thoracic area, or center of visible mass for a reduced signature target.

Given the C77/M855/SS109 bullet design and fragmentation envelope - it really does not matter if you shoot the target at 250m with a C7 or C8.