Naval Officers Once Again to Wear the Executive Curl

[CountDC]

Know what CountDC, you may be close to a dog that will hunt!

Have a Tiger team pull out one hundred  pers files, review them and come, for each one, to an agreed figure for days at sea. Then, add the days at sea all up and, add their corresponding  sea pay all up: make an average percentage figure of the days at sea to days of sea pay and order that it be applied to everyone in the fleet to derive their individual days at sea starting figure , just add new days from now on. Make it as an administrative order and then no one can redress the application of the average figure, as it will be applied equally to all.

P.s.: Has the Navy changed so much since I retired 12 yrs ago? Are you saying D.O.'s do not read through the pers files of their charges? If so, it is sad.  I know that was always the second thing I did every time I got assigned a new division, right after meeting my D.P.O.

I think that is a good way to go but have doubts it will happen and know that it will not keep at least some from redressing if they do not get the level they feel they should.  The tiger team is happening at D Mar Pers but I do not know how they will gather the info and decide.  Can't see them checking the pers files though as the files are located all over Canada.  I would imagine that they will have to come up with a list off all serving members that have ever been posted or attach posted to a ship as a starting point. Should be easy enough to come up with as long as the att-post was published.  I see the "loaners" and att-post being the real difficulty as they were not always properly documented or published into HRMS although the sea pay audits should have straightened that out.

PS - when I was in the Ships Office (01-03) I do not recall anyone reviewing a pers file other than when the member was charged or I raised an issue with something submitted by the member. 

 

[Sailorwest]

This will change the way people view day sails.  I can see it now. The XO tells the Cox'n that the ship will only sail in the forenoon on Friday and give the crew sliders in the afternoon. The Cox'n will reply that won't work for the crew as it will take a sea day away from the sailors. You either sail for a full 8 or you don't sail at all. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Why the hostility towards something that is meant as a formal recognition of your efforts?

As I mentioned earlier, I am not a Boy Scout, Yank or (and this will raise some ire) in the Army.  I don't feel the need or have the desire for badges on my uniform other than my rank or trade badges.  WRT sea time, my only concern is that the Pay Office does not screw up my sea pay.  It's bad enough I have this bloody CNC pin to deal with for the entire year.  And I do believe the SSI has the potential to be divisive amongst those who have this colour or that.  Is there not already enough of that?  ie the Lower Decks should be seen and not heard?

 

[CountDC]

With you on that Jolly.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Ta.  CountDC.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

With you on that one too Jollyjacktar, that's why I wondered earlier how we officers would answer questions on this when asked. Personnally, other than my rank, the only thing I do not mind on my unibag is medals and ribbons earned for actually doing something. Everything else is a given: you are part of the service and it is expected of you.

 

[RhumRunner]

Oldgateboatedriver, that is a good point. I never thought about it that way. A 2-and-halfer "MAY" get to the first level and a 3-ringer "MAY" get to the second level. A third and fourth level SSI-wearing officer would be an oddity.

I guess that is why the officers got their curl back... to change the topic of conversation away from the SSI and toward the pretty curly band on the arm.  ;D

 

[whitehorse]

I have a friend who in total may have accumulated about 400-500 sea days but has no formal records of the time as such. I suspect if he pushed he might get a gun metal (I like the name) SSI.

Of course his sea time was between May 1943 and May 1945. 

Its not about how long you did it its what you did while you were there.

(For what its worth I think I also have about 400 - 500 days but in a far more gentler time.)
I don't have any problem with it other than hoping that the awarding of the Insignia isn't too bureaucratic in nature.

 

[pegasus454]

If the naval officers get their executive curl, I think it would be fair for the NCMs to get their sea-time service stripes.

Hi All
  I have just join this august forum. I to would love to return crossed anchors and crown as a proper PO1 would wear. Maybe to speed things along that a poll should be done here to help the command level understand the issue.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

CPGear is now doing Canadian Naval Officer rank epaulet slip-ons with the executive curl/Elliott's Eye in the following uniform combinations:

NCD:  Black epaulet slip-on with gold embroidery (to match current NCD rank insignia and name tapes CANADA text is pre-embroidered on the slip-on; No need to order separate unit flash).

CADPAT TW Combats:  OD epaulet slip-on with black embroidery (CANADA text is pre-embroidered on the slip-on; No need to order separate unit flash).

CADPAT AR Combats:  CADPAT AR epaulet slip-on with tan embroidery (CANADA text must be ordered as an add-on).

http://www.cpgear.com/StoreBox/rank_insignias_unit_flash/8018.htm


Just be sure to put in the special instructions section that you require the Naval style officer insignia with the executive curl or Elliott's Eye, otherwise we won't be able to differentiate what style you want (Army/Air Force or Naval).

We will be getting a Naval officer specific rank insignia section up online in the next 2 weeks, but in the meantime, for those who don't want to wait...  ;D

Cheers,

Matt

 

[Neill McKay]

NCD:  Black epaulet slip-on with gold embroidery (to match current NCD rank insignia and name tapes CANADA text is pre-embroidered on the slip-on; No need to order separate unit flash).

Are these any different from naval DEU slip-ons?

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Naval DEU slip-on uses an embroidered ribbon sewn onto the material, rather than having the thread embroidered directly on. 

 

[gcclarke]

Are they being made a different size than the current slip-ons? I ask because the "Executive Curl - Interim Policy Guidance" document specifies the following:

d. Slip-ons Service Dress and Naval Combat Dress.  Slip-ons will be unisex and slightly longer than current naval male slip-on (by 5mm).  In order to ensure that the slip-on will fit all service and Naval Combat Dress (NCD) dress articles, a notch modification will be incorporated on the underside to ensure that it fits all shirts, sweaters and jackets.  CF Gold ½ inch and ¼ inch width embroidered thread with executive curl will be used for Acting/Sub Lieutenant to Captain (Navy) rank.  Officer-Cadet slip-ons will also use the embroidered thread but will not have the executive curl.  Flag Officer slip-ons will remain unchanged from the current standard.

I just wasn't sure if anyone had forwarded you a copy of that document.

 

[Neill McKay]

Are they being made a different size than the current slip-ons? I ask because the "Executive Curl - Interim Policy Guidance" document specifies the following:
I just wasn't sure if anyone had forwarded you a copy of that document.

Would you mind posting it here?

 

[gcclarke]

Would you mind posting it here?

For the most part, the relevant sections (ie non background info which we've discussed to death in this thread) were posted either above or in this thread.

Pretty much all else you need to know is that the thickness of bars and stripes for shoulder-boards will be 1/2 inch and 1/4 inch respectively, shoulder boards to be unchanged for flag ranks. Oh, and female Capt(N) shoulderboards will have to be custom sized. For tunics, it's as per the chart that had previously been posted, with any new mess kit being bought to conform to the same patterns.

If anyone else wants a copy of the full text I can e-mail it to them, but I don't think it's worthwhile to post the entire 4 page document.

 

[Blatchman]

CP Gear Has posted images of their NCD Slip-Ons

http://www.cpgear.com/StoreBox/nametapes_and_embroidery/8000.htm

 

[gwp]

The executive curl is not returning because it never left. 

The executive curl continued to appear on "vintage" mess dress (vice CF mess dress) after integration in 1968 and continued on contemporary mess dress from 1986.  After integration the curl remained in use on the regular uniform until about 1975 as it took about seven years for the reserves to be kitted out in CF green. 

Since its founding the Canadian Navy has had a variety of officer insignia. In 1910 it was natural for the emerging Canadian Navy to adopt the same straight rings with the executive curl for the permanent navy and subsequently the “wavy” shaped gold rings for the Royal Canadian Naval Volunteer Reserve (RCNVR) and the rings of narrow interwoven gold lace for the Royal Canadian Navy Reserve (RCNR). 

Being distinguished by their sleeve lace the standing wartime jest was that …  “the RCNVR are gentlemen trying to be officers, the RCNR are officers trying to be gentlemen and the RCN are neither trying to be both.”

Other variations in rank insignia included sky blue lace with a diamond shaped loop for officers of the Women’s Royal Canadian Naval Service and Sea Cadet Corps officers had a small anchor in place of the executive curl.

Following the Second World War, the Royal Canadian Navy was reorganized with a single reserve component.  In 1946 the distinctive wavy gold braid of the reserves gave way to the straight braided executive curl of the regular force until 1968.  With the integration of the Canadian Armed Forces, unembellished straight braid became the common rank insignia for all officers of both the Regular and Reserve Forces.  The executive curl was reserved for naval mess dress.

There is also a notion that the executive curl is a pehaps reflective of a British Tradition. While it is true that 19 of 22 Commonwealth navies use the executive curl ... according to Janes Fighting Ships 54 navies use the insignia.

Argentina                  Australia                        Bahamas                Bangladesh
Barbados                  Belgium                          Brazil                      Brunei
Canada  Colombia                  Congo (DRC)                  Cyprus                    Denmark
Estonia                      Fiji                                  Gabon                    Ghana
Greece                      Iceland                          India                        Iran
Italy                            Jamaica                          Kenya                    Latvia
Lithuania                  Malaysia                        Mauritania            Mexico
Morocco                    Mozambique                Netherlands          New Zealand
Nigeria                      Norway                        Pakistan                  Panama
Poland                      Portugal                        Qatar                      Romania
Slovenia *                South Africa                  Spain                      Sri Lanka
Sweden                      Thailand                        Tonga                      Trinidad & Tobago
Tunisia                        Turkey                          United Kingdom    Uruguay
Venezuela


It returns to the service dress uniform at 9:52 a.m. PDT on June 11 when CMS, MARPAC and MARLANT exchange their jackets with 1968 vintage insignia for jackets with the executive curl at a short ceremony in downtwon Victoria after which the Fleet Review Welcoming Centre will be officially opened followed by the Fleet Review Parade of Nations .

 

[Pusser]

The Glorious 11th of June? ;D

 

[kratz]

The Glorious 11th of June? ;D

IF a battle hounor could be culled out of that, I'm sure it would be.  ;D :nod: ;D

 

[pegasus454]

  While it is nice to have the Officers to get their traditional ranks  back again, it should have never been taken away, when are the NCO's and M/S and below get there Naval rank insignia back.

  This should not be only for the officers but for all naval personnel.

    Hopefully the senate will return the designation of Royal to the Canadian Nay so that once again we are know as the Royal Canadian Navy,  as the editorial in last Saturdays Globe and Mail highly recommended the senate do as it being debated within that chamber of sober second thought.