Transgender in the CF (merged)
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To be clear...
My question was what is specifically the policy about trans people wanting to join the Canadian Forces. What would be the case if a trans individual who already legally changed their sex as per the requirements of their province yet did not get a complete SRS, assuming that this individual makes all other medical requirements for the CF like getting a confirmation from the individuals relevant civilian doctors that can handle the mental and physical stresses of being in military? As in, the person checks off on the application the sex that matches how they appear and live as which confirmed by their birth certificate and other legal IDs.
The person in the article did not legally changed their sex designation, hence had to check the sex on their application that does not match how they appear and live. This will be the case until such a time they are able to get a sex change as per the requirements of their province, in this case New Brunswick.
Hence, the decision made by the Canadian Forces as per the article does not answer my question, as the factors are different. I already stated from the beginning that Canadian Forces will treat and accept you according to the sex designation on their birth certificate as per the information acquired in the past, and earlier in response to the article where I stated and understood the reasons.
I then proceeded to correct people about the article many on this thread misunderstood it, assuming that the trans person wanted the Canadian Forces to pay for their surgery, which is false. The individual would like to join the Canadian Forces because they want to serve, and to do so as the gender they appear and live as. They already done two other surgeries, which I am guessing was mastectomy (removal of breasts) and hysterectomy (removal of the uterus), two common female to male surgeries, plus have been on hormones replacement therapy for a while if they appear completely like a man, facial hair and all. All these would not have been possible without already seeing various psychologists and doctors, along with their approval.
That is the circumstances indicated in the article. Still leaves the question as to what exactly the Canadian Forces policy, and the reasons behind it. In an institution and organization that has two set of standards dependent on the sex of a person, obviously what your legal sex is is important. To give any exceptions would put the difference in standards into question and creates a slippery slope. So that leaves either asking the person to legally change their sex to match how they appear and live as that only affects one person, or remove the dual standards which would affect practically all of the Canadian Forces. In this case, they chose the latter and through medical instead of administratively.
I have yet actually stated my personal view in regards to the article, just explaining it and providing information to better understand what happened in that case. To go on and say what I believe or not on this matter would be presumptuous, a long with any other particular views.
Yes, I agree that it is not a good idea to accept a trans person (no matter their reasons to wanting to join) into the CF before they completed their transition and resolving related psychological issues, but the completion of transition does not always require a genital reassignment surgery. Using the person in the article as an example, to even be approved of getting a mastectomy, hysterectomy, and some other surgeries a long with getting hormones, they need to live as their gender identity 24/7 for a certain amount of time like a year, and regularly see the doctors and psychologists during that time. Once proven that it is the right thing for the person, they get approval for any surgeries related to changing physical appearance. Doctors doing the surgeries requires psychological approvals for liability reasons. They also require money in exchange, which not all transsexuals can afford, especially the Genital Reassignment Surgery which can cost ten times or more than the other surgeries.
As a result, you have many transsexuals who have the psychological clearance to get a sex change, but do not have the financial resources. For some, their gender issues is left unresolved. For most, if they live and appear as their gender, especially for many years without a problem, their psychological and gender issues is resolved and now a non-issue. So if the trans person can get proof that they are psychological sound and can handle the stress and rigors of military life like any CF member with no further numerous visits to doctors for it, then it ceases to be a medical issue.
At that point, what does that leave? Legal Sex status and how they appear and live as. That person in the article is refused entry into the CF because of their legal sex conflicts with their appearance and how they live as, and the only way to change the legal status is to get a sex change in New Brunswick. How that happens is not the responsibility of the CF.
If the legal sex matches how they appear and live as, and they make all of their medical requirements, does it matter if they did not have the complete SRS? There is no evidence that genitals makes any difference in how one performs, especially if it is covered by clothing and practically everyone never sees it.
My question was what is specifically the policy about trans people wanting to join the Canadian Forces. What would be the case if a trans individual who already legally changed their sex as per the requirements of their province yet did not get a complete SRS, assuming that this individual makes all other medical requirements for the CF like getting a confirmation from the individuals relevant civilian doctors that can handle the mental and physical stresses of being in military? As in, the person checks off on the application the sex that matches how they appear and live as which confirmed by their birth certificate and other legal IDs.
The person in the article did not legally changed their sex designation, hence had to check the sex on their application that does not match how they appear and live. This will be the case until such a time they are able to get a sex change as per the requirements of their province, in this case New Brunswick.
Hence, the decision made by the Canadian Forces as per the article does not answer my question, as the factors are different. I already stated from the beginning that Canadian Forces will treat and accept you according to the sex designation on their birth certificate as per the information acquired in the past, and earlier in response to the article where I stated and understood the reasons.
I then proceeded to correct people about the article many on this thread misunderstood it, assuming that the trans person wanted the Canadian Forces to pay for their surgery, which is false. The individual would like to join the Canadian Forces because they want to serve, and to do so as the gender they appear and live as. They already done two other surgeries, which I am guessing was mastectomy (removal of breasts) and hysterectomy (removal of the uterus), two common female to male surgeries, plus have been on hormones replacement therapy for a while if they appear completely like a man, facial hair and all. All these would not have been possible without already seeing various psychologists and doctors, along with their approval.
That is the circumstances indicated in the article. Still leaves the question as to what exactly the Canadian Forces policy, and the reasons behind it. In an institution and organization that has two set of standards dependent on the sex of a person, obviously what your legal sex is is important. To give any exceptions would put the difference in standards into question and creates a slippery slope. So that leaves either asking the person to legally change their sex to match how they appear and live as that only affects one person, or remove the dual standards which would affect practically all of the Canadian Forces. In this case, they chose the latter and through medical instead of administratively.
I have yet actually stated my personal view in regards to the article, just explaining it and providing information to better understand what happened in that case. To go on and say what I believe or not on this matter would be presumptuous, a long with any other particular views.
Yes, I agree that it is not a good idea to accept a trans person (no matter their reasons to wanting to join) into the CF before they completed their transition and resolving related psychological issues, but the completion of transition does not always require a genital reassignment surgery. Using the person in the article as an example, to even be approved of getting a mastectomy, hysterectomy, and some other surgeries a long with getting hormones, they need to live as their gender identity 24/7 for a certain amount of time like a year, and regularly see the doctors and psychologists during that time. Once proven that it is the right thing for the person, they get approval for any surgeries related to changing physical appearance. Doctors doing the surgeries requires psychological approvals for liability reasons. They also require money in exchange, which not all transsexuals can afford, especially the Genital Reassignment Surgery which can cost ten times or more than the other surgeries.
As a result, you have many transsexuals who have the psychological clearance to get a sex change, but do not have the financial resources. For some, their gender issues is left unresolved. For most, if they live and appear as their gender, especially for many years without a problem, their psychological and gender issues is resolved and now a non-issue. So if the trans person can get proof that they are psychological sound and can handle the stress and rigors of military life like any CF member with no further numerous visits to doctors for it, then it ceases to be a medical issue.
At that point, what does that leave? Legal Sex status and how they appear and live as. That person in the article is refused entry into the CF because of their legal sex conflicts with their appearance and how they live as, and the only way to change the legal status is to get a sex change in New Brunswick. How that happens is not the responsibility of the CF.
If the legal sex matches how they appear and live as, and they make all of their medical requirements, does it matter if they did not have the complete SRS? There is no evidence that genitals makes any difference in how one performs, especially if it is covered by clothing and practically everyone never sees it.
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You present a nice argument but you seem to think the world should just take you at face value about things like "ceases to be a medical issue" and "proof that they are psychological sound" and "no evidence that genitals makes any difference" when the world knows no such thing........
..and if genitals make no difference then why am reading this thread?
..and if genitals make no difference then why am reading this thread?
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mellian said:
Although you have made a good statement of the facts as you know them, you have made a common eror in lumping all aspects to be considered into a single CF that is an anonymous and faceless organization. There are a lot of potential problems for a non-gender-defined person, many of which no one would even consider until after the hiring process is done and the problems occurred.
Bearing that in mind, this person cannot join the CF, not because of any existing rules or because the CF is a big meany, but because there are no many small complicating issues that will arise out of the case, and the CF is not a testbed for exploration. For example, these are just a few common-senses issues I can think of.
All female members have the right to shower naked without males present; even if the CF doesnt object you can be certain that a female member somewhere will object to a non-female being present, proof being the parts under the clothing. Of note, the CF cannot afford to build complete barracks and showering facilities for persons who do not fit into either category.
If that person ever got arrested, or is searched as part of security or, even more common, flying from one part of the country to the other, who does the body search? Which gender of security officer will search this person. If its the wrong choice, this person could sue the CF, the security service or the facility where it occurred. Within the CF they can claim sexual harassment against the CF member searching them.
This person will be required to serve overseas at some time. Other countries that this person may deploy to may have strong cultural requirements based on gender. Canada does not need to cause an international incident just to please one applicant.
I'm sure others here can think of even better examples...
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Those two sentences are contradictory. You say their issues are left unresolved, then go on to say it is a non-issue. I would imagine this very contradiction is part of the reason that the CF does not want to take applicants until the issues are all resolved.
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The amount of tranny's that join is very small.We have innu pride month,black history month and a million different "mosaic"months forced down our throat through official email and military newspapers.Every minority I have ever worked for or with in the army usually could give a **** if he/she has a different colour skin/lifestyle and usually just works as if they are like everyone else.Cause they aint too special no matter what flavour of minority the month may be.They are soldiers.Not Black,Hispanic,Chinese.
As for the military not hiring someone going through a change of sex,is it really surprising?Whats the difference in someone coming in with cancer?Both are sick.
A person who is going to require a whole bunch of surgery,mental help,etc is not ready to serve.No doubt after they get all chopped off/extended they should be good to go right?
Also what about hormones?Wouldn't they need permanent medication for the rest of their lifes?Wouldn't this put them on TCAT?If you kick diabetics out for insulin I couldnt see why you couldn't kick "Glenda" out as "it's" body doesnt produce estrogen...and would require it...wouldnt they?
If that's the case they have no reason kicking out diabetics if these people require hormones.
Imagine being the troop warrant on that adrep..I need 2 box 7.62, 25HEAT,1 month supply of estrogen.
As for the military not hiring someone going through a change of sex,is it really surprising?Whats the difference in someone coming in with cancer?Both are sick.
A person who is going to require a whole bunch of surgery,mental help,etc is not ready to serve.No doubt after they get all chopped off/extended they should be good to go right?
Also what about hormones?Wouldn't they need permanent medication for the rest of their lifes?Wouldn't this put them on TCAT?If you kick diabetics out for insulin I couldnt see why you couldn't kick "Glenda" out as "it's" body doesnt produce estrogen...and would require it...wouldnt they?
If that's the case they have no reason kicking out diabetics if these people require hormones.
Imagine being the troop warrant on that adrep..I need 2 box 7.62, 25HEAT,1 month supply of estrogen.
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Others have said it, and I agree, no one in this country has a right to employment. You have a freedom to apply, but an employer (even the CF, or the government in general) is not obligated to employ you.
I remember being asked one time, while I was working at the BC Supreme Court, "Where is the part in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms where it says we have a right to food and shelter?" The question surprised me for a second, then I said something to the effect that "the closest place where you might find that in legislation is a bit to the south of us - try Cuba".
Trying to use one's "rights" to force others to give you money, or a job, or anything else, is just silly, IMHO.
I remember being asked one time, while I was working at the BC Supreme Court, "Where is the part in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms where it says we have a right to food and shelter?" The question surprised me for a second, then I said something to the effect that "the closest place where you might find that in legislation is a bit to the south of us - try Cuba".
Trying to use one's "rights" to force others to give you money, or a job, or anything else, is just silly, IMHO.
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xena said:
You dont have the right to 'food and shelter' but you do have the right to 'money' - its called the welfare system...
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For this person, their gender issues are left unresolved. They are still legally, and somewhat physically female. Why on earth should the CF take them on with an ongoing medical/psych issue?
Again, you join us, we don't join you. It's the applicant's responsibility to meet the standards. We discriminate against fat people, blind people, deaf people, diabetics, epileptics, people who don't speak the language, people with disabilities, people with mental health conditions, short people, dumb people, and EVERYONE ELSE who doesn't meet the standards.
I don't get what you don't understand. The CF has requirements to meet, and this person didn't meet them, so they don't get in. This argument is as stupid as the "the CF is discriminating against me being a pilot because I have bad vision" argument. If you can't meet the standard, you can't fucking join! This person was not barred from service, they were told "when you fix your outstanding issues, we will re-evaluate your application."
Can a person wearing contact lenses fly a plane? Sure they can. Can they do it as well as a person with 20/20 uncorrected vision? Likely. Can a person in a wheelchair be a clerk? Probably. Does this mean that either of these people will be taken into the CF? No.
Again, you join us, we don't join you. It's the applicant's responsibility to meet the standards. We discriminate against fat people, blind people, deaf people, diabetics, epileptics, people who don't speak the language, people with disabilities, people with mental health conditions, short people, dumb people, and EVERYONE ELSE who doesn't meet the standards.
I don't get what you don't understand. The CF has requirements to meet, and this person didn't meet them, so they don't get in. This argument is as stupid as the "the CF is discriminating against me being a pilot because I have bad vision" argument. If you can't meet the standard, you can't fucking join! This person was not barred from service, they were told "when you fix your outstanding issues, we will re-evaluate your application."
Can a person wearing contact lenses fly a plane? Sure they can. Can they do it as well as a person with 20/20 uncorrected vision? Likely. Can a person in a wheelchair be a clerk? Probably. Does this mean that either of these people will be taken into the CF? No.
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I'm not talking about being 5'0", I'm talking about being 3'2". And I believe (though would have to find supporting documentation) that there is still some kind of height requirement.
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X-mo-1979 said:
Cancer negatively affects one health and life threatening. Being trans is treatable, and can be in good health and physical shape.
Like any surgery, need recovery, and usually the person can regain their full health and physical fitness.
Can take a while before menopause can start damaging one's health. Diabetics lives are dependent on insulin in the short term.
There is over thirty trans people in the Canadian Forces presently. Whether any of them are in the Combat Arms or ever placed near warzones like Afghanistan, is unknown.
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Bruce Monkhouse said:
Of course in general humanity still thinks to much with their genitals than with anything else, but I meant no difference in the context of being a day to day soldier/seaman/airmen in the Canadian Forces, in regards to having a good health and physically fit, to shooting a gun or piloting an aircraft or driving a tank, etc.
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mellian said:
So how does one get Hormone pills out to someone when the feces hits the fan?I aint talking about how it effect their health in the future.How does one supply someone with required medication when there isnt a way to get it out to them.I know being in Ottawa or montreal you can go to the pharmacy.However outside your little bubble world there are places where you cant do that.
Explain also WHY would we take someone who is going to be useless to us for a couple years?Why not wait until they fix themselves?Hence what I said about the cancer patient.You wouldnt accept someone to sit around on PAT platoon while he gets his outie turned inny.Its a waste of our money and time.If your not deployable your not employable
So explain to me why anyone would hire someone who is going to need years off work and cost the army a bunch of money?When you can just get a normal healthy recruit?
It would be like me buying a 1957 dodge with the tires all missing,rusted out and no engine at 4 times the price I would pay for a new dodge.IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE.Neither would be recruiting a recruit that needs a whole bunch of work,costs a whole bunch of money,and maybe never run right.
Hopefully a analogy of a vehicle will click something in your head.As everyone else here can't seem to explain it to you in army terms.
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You don't think dealing with the psychological, medical, and hormonal issues of an ongoing gender transition will have any impact on performing one of the most stressful jobs on earth?! You're kidding yourself, and no one here is buying it.
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Forget it folks, this is mellian's MO. Next should come the comments about us being cloe minded and right wing. And mellian, I am NOT putting words into your mouth, I am stating an opinion based on FACT.
I'll also warn you that I am starting to consider you an administrative burden because we ALWAYS have to watch this same behaviour from you: you state opinions or ask questions then drag it along a downward spiral by splitting hairs to the Nth degree. Your threads "spiral" compares to something else that spirals - when it's flushed.
I'd pay to be a fly on the wallwhen IF you get on BMQ.
Scott
Army.ca Staff
I'll also warn you that I am starting to consider you an administrative burden because we ALWAYS have to watch this same behaviour from you: you state opinions or ask questions then drag it along a downward spiral by splitting hairs to the Nth degree. Your threads "spiral" compares to something else that spirals - when it's flushed.
I'd pay to be a fly on the wall
Scott
Army.ca Staff
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mellian said:
Again, you know more than Mother Nature, ......you and your made up reasoning are growing stale.......
Got any scientific facts?
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[stepping out of the Dark Ages]
One can no more change one's gender than one can change one's species. Yes, one can get surgery to appear as the opposite sex, a cat or even as a vulcan and some legal authorities may recognise applications to change gender; however, it's more likely that my Shih Tzu will become a cat. Does this surgery help people deal with their personal and/or psychological issues? I think it does, given the apparent evidence out there.
[stepping back into the Dark Ages]
Now, as for someone who attempted to join the military in 1986, but was denied due to "ongoing medical treatment", I can assure everyone here that at one time at least (back in the Dark Ages), this was grounds to deny persons from joining.
My "ongoing medical treatment?" I had braces. On my teeth. The day they came off, I literally walked across the road and re-activated my file. I was serving within weeks. I still serve.
One can no more change one's gender than one can change one's species. Yes, one can get surgery to appear as the opposite sex, a cat or even as a vulcan and some legal authorities may recognise applications to change gender; however, it's more likely that my Shih Tzu will become a cat. Does this surgery help people deal with their personal and/or psychological issues? I think it does, given the apparent evidence out there.
[stepping back into the Dark Ages]
Now, as for someone who attempted to join the military in 1986, but was denied due to "ongoing medical treatment", I can assure everyone here that at one time at least (back in the Dark Ages), this was grounds to deny persons from joining.
My "ongoing medical treatment?" I had braces. On my teeth. The day they came off, I literally walked across the road and re-activated my file. I was serving within weeks. I still serve.
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