Transgender in the CF (merged)

[Jarnhamar]

You don't think dealing with the psychological, medical, and hormonal issues of an ongoing gender transition will have any impact on performing one of the most stressful jobs on earth?! You're kidding yourself, and no one here is buying it.

100%

Transgender people may be fine physically but you're grossly understating the difficulties they face psychological.
Meillian everyone is bringing up point after point about why it's a bad idea.

 

[vonGarvin]

Transgender people may be fine physically but you're grossly understating the difficulties they face psychological.
Meillian everyone is bringing up point after point about why it's a bad idea.

Unless, of course, said person has completed treatments and has been declared healthy by a competent medical authority, I suppose.  Now, not being a competent medical authority.....  (and I don't even play one on T.V.)

 

[mellian]

Although you have made a good statement of the facts as you know them, you have made a common eror in lumping all aspects to be considered into a single CF that is an anonymous and faceless organization. There are a lot of potential problems for a non-gender-defined person, many of which no one would even consider until after the hiring process is done and the problems occurred.

Bearing that in mind, this person cannot join the CF, not because of any existing rules or because the CF is a big meany, but because there are no many small complicating issues that will arise out of the case, and the CF is not a testbed for exploration. For example, these are just a few common-senses issues I can think of.

A lot of the potential problems have already been resolved and covered by existing policies from what I can tell, especially if a women serve equally with men (apart from fitness, hair, and uniform standards), gay/lesbian/bi folks are accepted and openly supported by the CF, and then all the trans people already in the CF.




All female members have the right to shower naked without males present; even if the CF doesnt object you can be certain that a female member somewhere will object to a non-female being present, proof being the parts under the clothing.  Of note, the CF cannot afford to build complete barracks and showering facilities for persons who do not fit into either category.

If that person ever got arrested, or is searched as part of security or, even more common, flying from one part of the country to the other, who does the body search? Which gender of security officer will search this person.  If its the wrong choice, this person could sue the CF, the security service or the facility where it occurred.  Within the CF they can claim sexual harassment against the CF member searching them.

In terms of liabilities in general, I agree. In this example, if a women is being searched by a legally male trans women, it will and can be a problem for sure. But if the trans women is legally female regardless of their genitals, the women being searched would not be able to claim sexual harassment. Of course, women can sexualy harass other women, same goes of men sexually harassing men, and be charged for it... In the end, legal status of a trans person as more weight liabilities wise than the genitals.

This person will be required to serve overseas at some time.  Other countries that this person may deploy to may have strong cultural requirements based on gender.  Canada does not need to cause an international incident just to please one applicant.

How does the Canadian Forces normally handle with policy and cultural differences in general, especially if female soldiers are allowed to serve in a country like Afghanistan? It would really not be any different.

I'm sure others here can think of even better examples...

In any specific examples that is not covered already by existing policies?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Again you are just skirting the easy issues.........someday you MIGHT be lucky enough to find out that there is a whole lot more to worry about in this job then nakedness.


If anyone has something new and useful to add then PM a MOD and they may reopen this. [or they may not]

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

From RadarGrrl 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/members/26955

Wow...so many misconceptions! 

First off, I'm going to introduce myself as one of the few members of the Canadian Forces to transition in uniform.  I joined the CF in 1987 as a radar technician, and currenly work as an ATIS technician here at Trenton.  I transitioned starting in 2003, the 8th to 'officially' do so.  (I say 'officially' because I personally know two MtF CF members, who joined the CF already transitioned, well before Sylvia Durand arrived on the scene.  I suspect we're probably well over the 30 mark by now.

Since I transitioned, there have been many changes.  First off, there now is an official policy.  I understand this from someone else I know who is in transition now.  I have yet to see it, but I do have my feelers out so that I can.  The way I understand it, a trans person does not get the status of the target gender until full SRS has taken place.  This is different from what I experienced, where I was declared 'administratively' female from the day I went fulltime.  For me, that meant female standards for everything, from new DEUs to female standards on the Express test, (a MtF person loses a LOT of muscle mass on HRT), to getting the old female CUA, (which disappeared shortly after).

I'm not going to do a Trans 101 here, because the information is readily out there at places like TS Roadmap or Lynn Conway, but anyone here can ask me questions.  I've always professed to be out and open, as you can't help anyone from inside a closet.  However, I can really only offer my perspective as a MtF transitioner, not the other way around.  There are some things I will debunk here, though...

Transition is not a choice.  Gender is hardwired before birth.  For so many of us, the only 'choice' involved here is whether or not to do anything about it, with the alternative being suicide.  Trans people have one of the highest suicide rates in the world.  But there is a treatment, one that has one of the highest success ratings in medicine.

Surgery is not cosmetic in nature.  It is more reconstructive, and uses existing tissues to fashion the new genitalia out of the old.  With the exception of the discarding of the testes (MtF) and uterus/overies (FtM), everything else is used.

Don't even get me started on penguins.  Someone's been watching waaay to much South Park.

In one respect, I can understand why one can't join up while mid-transition.  If you're transitioning, you're placed on TCat, therefore can't train.  So why bring on somebody they can't train?  However, there are a few grey areas here, especially when it comes to the guys, for whom SRS is expensive ($100k or more), as there's more than one surgery involved.  So many of the guys tend to not deal with anything beyond top surgery i.e. breast removal/chest reconstruction and hysterectomy.  These should be enough to qualify a FtM person as male, but somehow it's not.  (I guess it really is all about the penis, right guys?)

One last thing...prevalence.  You'll hear much in the media about how 'rare' TS really is, usually spouting numbers such as 1 in 37000 for the girls, 1 in 100000 for the guys.  Prof. Lynn Conway has debunked this quite effectively.  In this document, she demonstrates that the prevalence of known cases of SRS is closer to 1 in 2500, with the extrapolation that the prevalence of transsexualism be closer to 1 in 1000 or higher, putting it in the same company as Muscular Dystrophy, Multiple Sclerosis, cleft palates and Cerebral Palsy.

OK, so that's my introduction.  Fire away with the questions I know some of you have!

 

[Sub_Guy]

How much do we waste on gender reassignment?

 

[The Bread Guy]

How much do we waste on gender reassignment?

I'm not a doctor, but I'm guessing gender reassignment surgery generally doesn't come about as a result of, in at least some cases, a lack of will or discipline (or, as mentioned in previous posts in this thread, a lack of enforcement of existing rules regarding weight/fitness).

 

[Sub_Guy]

I agree 100%, but it is my opinion that if we are going to waste money on gender assignment, then why the fuck not spend it on the people with obesity issues, I bet someone out there could argue that fact.   

In the end the 200k spent on getting these guys down, will probably save money over the long run.  (I disagree with it though)    Being a member of the CF usually comes with a free gym membership!

 

[mkil]

How much do we waste on gender reassignment?

A close friend of mine who is also in the CF is undergoing gender reassignment right now. I find it kind of appauling that you liken gastric bypass and other weight loss surgeries with gender reassignment. Most cases of obese patients can be resolved with dietary and lifestyle interventions. At most, a supervisor would have to provide time of work for remedial PT and counselling appointments. No amount of training, or intervention would make things better for someone who has gender identity issues. It is an endocrinological and psychological disorder that requires medical intervention. You should not pass judgement on how the DND funds medical treatments.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You should not pass judgement on how the DND funds medical treatments.

Bullshit.....................it's the taxpayers dollar and every taxpayer has a right to say what they wish on how their dollars are spent.

 

[mkil]

Bullshit.....................it's the taxpayers dollar and every taxpayer has a right to say what they wish on how their dollars are spent.

touché, my friend! I am trying to figure out a better way of wording, as I did not intend for it to sound as it came. My head is a little but stuck in French mode lately. I guess my train of thought is that even though it may seem like a waste of tax payer dollars to some, to others it is a life altering medical need that really cannot go untreated. I have seen how it affects people. Imagine that you as a man, have a horomonal imbalance that causes you to grow breasts in your mid 30`s. Would you seek medical help to deal with them? Because they are not body parts that you identify with. This is the situation my friend goes through every single day of her life. Looking down and seeing a penis when, she is a woman on the inside. That is all I meant, please take my words in the manner in which I intended them.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Bullshit.....................it's the taxpayers dollar and every taxpayer has a right to say what they wish on how their dollars are spent.

Bang on!

In the end the 200k spent on getting these guys down, will probably save money over the long run.  (I disagree with it though)   

I know I may be dreaming in Technicolour, but I'd be interested, too, in what kind of follow-up is done to see if this does save money, or increase effectiveness, in the long run.

Being a member of the CF usually comes with a free gym membership!

:nod:

I agree 100%, but it is my opinion that if we are going to waste money on gender assignment, then why the frig not spend it on the people with obesity issues, I bet someone out there could argue that fact.

To me, the difference is that gender re-assignment is more like dealing with an internal psychological issue like PTSD - something is different inside, so we have to deal with it to keep the troopie in the game.  With obesity, unless it's psychologically triggered, there are other systems in place to deal with it as a behavioural issue.

One is (generally) dealing with who you are, while the other is (generally) dealing with what you do (or don't do).

(And yes, I know there's probably all sorts of shades of grey between the black and the white presented here - just a first shot at trying to nail down my thought processes.)

 

[ModlrMike]

How much do we waste on gender reassignment?

The answer is probably none. I know of one case funded by the CF. AFIK it's no longer a listed service by any province, so the CF is not obliged to provide it.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The answer is probably none. I know of one case funded by the CF. AFIK it's no longer a listed service by any province, so the CF is not obliged to provide it.

Listed in Ontario since 2008 (couldn't find anything saying it's been delisted again).

 

[mkil]

The things I know are being funded by the CF for my friend as far as gender reassignment are as follows:

- genital surgery
- breast augmentation
- hormonal replacement therapy (for the rest of her life)
- psychological support

They will not fund the following:

- speech therapy
- shaving of the Adam`s apple
- hair removal
- body sculpting
- any other esthetic refinements.

Sorry I don`t have the references for this  :-[ This is only my friend`s experience, and might not reflect the threatment of every case of gender reassignment. I personally think that it should be a co-pay situation, so that each individual shows a true commitment.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Let's keep the topic on track folks.

There's already a thread on gender reassignment. Discuss there.

---Staff---

 

[GAP]

Why in the world is the government or any employer responsible for gender reassignment?

That's a personal choice and should remain so.  :

 

[The Bread Guy]

Let's keep the topic on track folks.

There's already a thread on gender reassignment. Discuss there.

---Staff---

Good point - moved & merged.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

I actually think its appaling that gender reassignment is covered, but something as simple as corrective laser eye surgery is NOT, and this would cut costs on eyeglasses.

You have to think when a mbr gets a gender reassignment surgery they get a posting of their preference, the move alone is 15k to 30k, now add up the surgery cost, and time off and hormones etc...


I am one of those people who thinks that if you want a gender reassignment A) you should shell out of your own pocket (like I will do for laser eye surgery) and B) probably should not be serving in the military with such psychological issues.  (my personal opinions)

I like how the US military looks at the trans issue.

 

[Nudibranch]

Why in the world is the government or any employer responsible for gender reassignment?

That's a personal choice and should remain so.  :

Why would they fund bariatric surgery? Esp with the non-bypass, lap band procedures, all that does is make the stomach smaller - the person could choose to just eat less, instead of having that choice imposed on them via an elastic band in their innards. And yet, it is funded.
And to the tune of much more than gender reassignment, merely based on the number of pers undergoing the procedures in question.