Transgender in the CF (merged)

[Steel Badger]

Bruce, accept it. Mellian's right!


FOR GOD's SAKE MAN! THINK OF THE PENGUINS!

 

[mellian]

Can we stop with the penguin nonsense? Serves no purpose to this discussion apart from degenerating it and being disrespectful. Comparing transgenders to furries are not the same thing.

 

[FastEddy]

Because it is just as legitimate, as there are standards and regulations in treating trans people.

Yes and that just goes to prove how much wrong there is with the System.


Read the article again. Nowhere says they request the CF to pay for it, just to be accepted into the CF as male.

Okay, so I want a new Mercedes, Boo Hoo !.

It does not as males and females are not separate species.

Clever, just stick to your Coffee House Rhetoric

 

[Teflon]

Mellian Is there any cause you don't support?

Guys chopping off their penis,George Bush is a war criminal,gay rights.....

Apparently the prejudice faced by furries isn't high up on the list

Can we stop with the penguin nonsense? Serves no purpose to this discussion apart from degenerating it and being disrespectful. Comparing transgenders to furries are not the same thing.

 

[kratz]

mariomike,

I have not seen anyone state gender reassignment should not happen, or disagree that such a procedure aides in an individuals mental well being. mellian continues to ask why the CF is able to deny entry to applicants who have not completed their transition. As others have pointed out, the CF has denied other medical conditions, with the cavet that potential applicants can reapply and possibly be accepted, should the medical condition change (example: allergy to bee stings and imunotherapy).

If someone wants to be a penguin, all the power to them.

 

[FastEddy]

All kidding aside, I'm a great believer in suicide prevention. If this procedure helps keep some people happy, maybe it will help save lives?

Great Idea, lets sign e'm up in the Military, just what we need to fill the Ranks.

 

[gcclarke]

In this particular case, I see no reason why the person in question is currently medically unfit for duty. Since he has yet to have undergone gender reassignment surgery, legally speaking the CF would be obligated to treat him as a female. Until such time as he can afford to undergo said surgery.

At that time, obviously there would be a recovery period. I believe the following policy (CF Health Services Group Directive 5020-72: Guidance to Health Care Providers – Sick Leave and Annual Leave) would cover how that would be dealt with. Basically it'd be the same as if I were to get my eyes zapped or my beer belly sucked out.

Sick Leave for Elective Surgery not covered by the Spectrum of Care

41. There is an increasing incidence of CF personnel undergoing surgeries/ procedures that are not covered by the Spectrum of Care. Such surgeries include laser eye surgery, mammoplasty, abdominoplasty, liposuction, etc. Members are to take annual leave for such procedures as well as any related consultation, follow up, etc. If there is a complication from these procedures, CF H Svcs will provide care and assign sick leave as appropriate.

The Document is found at http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/health-sante/pd/pol/word/5020-72-eng.doc

Should the person not have enough annual leave saved up at the time of the surgery, I personally would consider that a completely valid reason for granting LWOP. Of course, that decision would be up to the person's commanding officer.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

All kidding aside, I'm a great believer in suicide prevention. If this procedure helps keep some people happy, maybe it will help save lives?

Now this is just a Monty Python skit right?

 

[Steel Badger]

Actually, I wasn't commenting on GRS.

I was using humour to draw attention to the absurdity of the argument. YOU may prefer the example I stated above re: the CF waiving basic eligilbility requirements so they can give someone a job so that that poor down trodden pers can earn enough to pay for ((Whatever)) ... in order to meet the basic eligibily requirements for the CF....

Now THAT is disrespectful.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Basically it'd be the same as if I were to get my eyes zapped or my beer belly sucked out.

So do you think you should be accepted if you were still awaiting eye zappery or rabidly obese?

 

[mariomike]

Great Idea, lets sign e'm up in the Military, just what we need to fill the Ranks.

That's not what I said. I was referring to the silly comments I made about the operation. Not about if the CF owed anyone a job or not. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Did you ever see the movie "Glen or Glenda"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuq1A_T3vWQ
It's director, a former Marine, "claimed that he had participated in the Battle of Guadalcanal while secretly wearing a brassiere and panties beneath his uniform."

Can't do it.It has 1950 style surgery stuff.That for some unknown reason freaks me out.Beheading videos...Im ok...old hospitals...not good. ;D

 

[gcclarke]

So do you think you should be accepted if you were still awaiting eye zappery or rabidly obese?

If the person currently meets the medical requirements to enter into their trade, then yes. I've got a V4. Good enough for a CSE thankfully. Should I have been denied enrolment if I had voiced during my interview at the CFRC that I would one day like to have laser eye surgery? No.

Again, the only "medical issue" that the person we're talking about is suffering from is the fact that he has a vagina. That in and of itself should not be a barrier to serving in the Canadian Forces. And later on down the road, when he decides to take care of that particular issue, the relevent policies should be followed.

 

[PMedMoe]

Okay, all other nonsense aside, the article posted by SFB is an excellent point and I believe exactly what mellian was looking for.  Obviously, if the gender change is not physically complete, the CF is not going to accept you as an applicant.  Don't blame the CF for this policy.  They have several other enrollment criteria that people do not meet, but you don't hear about anyone pulling the "discrimination" card because they are out of shape, in debt, etc.  Well, you might, but it doesn't make a good headline does it.

I would say, to avoid complications, have the complete transgendering (is that a word?) done before you get in.  Also, I personally don't give a damn that you are "legally" male or female on your ID.  It's what you look like naked that will decide it for me.  After all, you have to fall into one category or another, there is no middle.

My opinion on this:

Here's his dilemma: he can't get a military job until he completes his sex-change procedures. But he can't afford the final $36,000 surgery unless he has a decent-paying job.

He's now filing a human-rights complaint at both the provincial and national levels and has returned to school to study social work should his policing career fail to pan out.

"The big issue is, OK, if I'm trying to get in the military, they're rejecting me because I don't have my operation," he said in an interview.

"If an employer can do that, how am I ever going to be able to pay for the operation?"

Too bad, should have thought about that before you started.  Instead of blaming the CF, what not blame the NB government for not allowing you to legally change your gender?  Are you also going to blame whatever police agency you applied to as well?  Or did you even bother because they won't pay for the surgery?  There are people trying to feed and clothe their families or who are taking care of (at great expense) a sick family member in a long term care facility.  I have more sympathy for them.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Mellian, you seem to think that everyone has a god (lower case on purpose to include all faiths and denominations) given right to serve in the CF, as does the yet to be completely renovated person in the story.  You don't.  You have a right to apply, not to a job.  People get denied for flat feet, bunions, poor eyesight, deafness, mental issues, you name it.  Bruce is right, this person inflicted this situation on his/her/their self(ves)  It's not the CF's job to fix it.

 

[medicineman]

Fact of the matter is the person is still undergoing treatment for a psychological condition that can only be recticfied with this surgical procedure - if you're under care for ANY condition that requires frequent follow up, especially one that is to be dealt with surgically, you're not getting in until it's complete and you've recovered.  Add to the fact the person concerned is also being followed by psychiatry for said condition, until they've been discharged for routine follow up only, again, they won't be enrolled.  That's it that's all.  You can blow all the human rights smoke around you like, but the Supreme Court of Canada has upheld the right of the CF to discriminate against who they take into their employ based on current/ongoing physical or mental health issues.  Once the patient is deemed to be convalesced enough and integrated within their new body and their mental health professional has decided they're fine, they can carry on with their application.  However, we aren't here as a social welfare organization - we're here as a professional military of limited size that can't afford to hire someone just so they can end up on a medical category for however long and not be employable by us, simply because they can't afford a surgical procedure.  In short, we aren't obliged to hire this person at this time.

MM 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Mellian, you seem to think that everyone has a god (lower case on purpose to include all faiths and denominations) given right to serve in the CF, as does the yet to be completely renovated person in the story.  You don't.  You have a right to apply, not to a job.  People get denied for flat feet, bunions, poor eyesight, deafness, mental issues, you name it.  Bruce is right, this person inflicted this situation on his/her/their self(ves)  It's not the CF's job to fix it.

This statement is full of win.

It's the army military christ what do some people expect?
Worst case senario:
Pay for my sex change so I can join then sign a 3 year contract work away from everyone else because they don't understand me get special accommodations then leave after 3 years, write a book and file lawsuits.

If someone wants to join the Canadian Forces then meet the requirements and join.
As much as the CF wants to make itself like a business, people need to realize the military isn't like your normal kinda job in a normal job environment.

Can we stop with the penguin nonsense? Serves no purpose to this discussion apart from degenerating it and being disrespectful. Comparing transgenders to furries are not the same thing.

Are you on a crusade or something?

This is called military humor.
SURPRISE.
You find military humor when dealing with members of the military.
What's disrespectful is that guy's me first attitude.  A poster was right, not once did he talk about serving Canada. He just wants a job and the military isn't just any ol job.

The guy in SFBs is an douchbag.

 

[FDO]

.  A poster was right, not once did he talk about serving Canada. He just wants a job and the military isn't just any ol job.

First of all I believe I take offence at being referred to as a "poser". After 30+ years and several deployments I've proven myself!

More to the point of this thread is, this guy seems to think that we are a chairty organization. "If your out of work and need money until something comes along join the CF." We didn't allow any of the GM or Ford workers to enrol unless they met the standard and some of them were techs already trained. A lot of them had a pre-existing condition that could be cured and once it is we'll hire them. It's called citizenship! We also turned down a guy who had a degree in Rocket Science. He couldn't speak either of the offical languages of this Country. He needed a job to feed his family. We see all kinds of heartbreaking stories everyday. Some of them more heart wrenching that this. Nothing we can do and nothing we will do. Meet the standard or look elsewhere.

Sorry, there is already an army that is a charity organization. Its called the Salvation Army. Look there!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

First of all I believe I take offence at being referred to as a "poser". After 30+ years and several deployments I've proven myself!

FDO,..He's a good kid and I can promise you the young lad meant to say "poster".

Unfortunately 'spell check' doesn't fix what someone MEANT to say.

 

[kratz]

[quote author=Flawed Design]As much as the CF wants to make itself like a business, people need to realize the military isn't like your normal kinda job in a normal job environment.[/quote]

Sadly, the CF is mandated by government policy to conform to a more business like atmosphere and this is the chink in the armour that most of mellian's arguments are striking for on this issue.