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The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

I think giving us $13B in one shot would be akin to giving a hobo a million dollars. Look at all the useless crap we're spending money on, with shrinking budgets. No white paper + massive money dump = recipe for disaster. We'd have to phase in the increases, and could phase in the GST increase once the budget becomes unbalanced due to the DND increase.
 
PuckChaser said:
No white paper + massive money dump = recipe for disaster.
QFTT -- like pouring more water into a leaky bucket without fixing the leaks.
Inspir said:
I think it would take NATO to say "so long Canada you are not doing your part" for people to be like "oh shit we're on our own now".
As long as we're this close to/interconnected with these guys ...
US-EPS-01-0002.png

... we're never REALLY on our own - for better, and for worse.
 
milnews.ca said:
QFTT -- like pouring more water into a leaky bucket without fixing the leaks.As long as we're this close to/interconnected with these guys ...
US-EPS-01-0002.png

... we're never REALLY on our own - for better, and for worse.

The Semi-Autonomous Region of Canada.
 
Perhaps we're looking at this problem the wrong way.  Given the right technological upgrades, it looks like the latest versions of artificial intelligence (AI) are now able to outperform experienced combat pilots.  Interestingly the AI “pilot” can defeat human pilots who have more advanced aircraft.
Maybe Super Hornets are good enough;  we just need to get rid of all those pesky pilots.    :stirpot:

LINK

Extracts:

Artificial intelligence (AI) developed by a University of Cincinnati doctoral graduate was recently assessed by subject-matter expert and retired United States Air Force Colonel Gene Lee -- who holds extensive aerial combat experience as an instructor and Air Battle Manager with considerable fighter aircraft expertise -- in a high-fidelity air combat simulator.

....[Col. Lee] took to manual controls against a more mature version of ALPHA last October. Not only was Lee not able to score a kill against ALPHA after repeated attempts, he was shot out of the air every time during protracted engagements in the simulator.



Pre-emptive calming:  Yes, I know it's just a simulation, and the article is  focused on AI, not specifically on air combat or procurement.  It was posted for interest, knowing that all those unemployed pilots would overwhelm the Int / PAO / TDO worlds.  >:D
 
Journeyman said:
Perhaps we're looking at this problem the wrong way.  Given the right technological upgrades, it looks like the latest versions of artificial intelligence (AI) are now able to outperform experienced combat pilots.  Interestingly the AI “pilot” can defeat human pilots who have more advanced aircraft.
Maybe Super Hornets are good enough;  we just need to get rid of all those pesky pilots.    :stirpot:

LINK

Extracts:

Artificial intelligence (AI) developed by a University of Cincinnati doctoral graduate was recently assessed by subject-matter expert and retired United States Air Force Colonel Gene Lee -- who holds extensive aerial combat experience as an instructor and Air Battle Manager with considerable fighter aircraft expertise -- in a high-fidelity air combat simulator.

....[Col. Lee] took to manual controls against a more mature version of ALPHA last October. Not only was Lee not able to score a kill against ALPHA after repeated attempts, he was shot out of the air every time during protracted engagements in the simulator.



Pre-emptive calming:  Yes, I know it's just a simulation, and the article is  focused on AI, not specifically on air combat or procurement.  It was posted for interest, knowing that all those unemployed pilots would overwhelm the Int / PAO / TDO worlds.  >:D

Shares in coffee pots and hotels just took a hit.
 
Fourth-generation Super Hornets just can’t do the job in the Arctic, retired U.S. Air Force general insists
Matthew Fisher
National Post
04 Jul 2016

A recently retired senior U.S. Air Force general with decades of experience defending the margins of North American air space agrees with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau that there will be a “capability gap” in defending the northern approaches to the continent.

But retired Lt.-Gen. Michael Dubie, a deputy commander of NORAD and of the U.S. Northern Command until last year, offered a different explanation for the gap and recommended that Canada find out the best way to defend the continent by holding a competition.

After Postmedia reported last month that the government was close to buying Boeing’s fourth-generation Super Hornets to replace some of its current fleet of CF-18s, the prime minister told the Commons that Lockheed Martin’s stealthy fifth-generation F-35 would not be able to fill the developing capability gap because it “is far from working.”

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said Canada had to act now to close the gap in order to be able to fulfil its responsibilities in NORAD and NATO.

Dubie dismissed the idea that the F-35 was still somehow an experimental aircraft.

After noting that “every new airplane ever designed takes a whole lot of time to operationalize,” the former test and evaluation pilot said the U.S. Marine Corps had already declared IOC (initial operational capability) on its variant of the F-35 and that the USAF planned to do the same by the end of the year with the model that the Harper government had been considering buying.

“The milestones are being met. They are on track,” the former three-star general said of the F-35. “Sure, there are problems, but this airplane is going forward and it is going to be in the fleets of many countries for many decades to come. They already have 50,000 or 60,000 hours and it is just getting better as the bugs are ironed out.”

The capability gap was not because the F-35 was not ready, he said, but would occur if Canada and other countries did not purchase the right aircraft to confront a rapidly evolving threat.

“The threat — and let’s be candid here — is that the Russian threat is evolving and it will become harder to combat in the future without fifth-generation aircraft,” Dubie said.

“NORAD has to continually evolve with technology and with capability because the threat against North America is going to evolve, too. The F-35 is designed for the threats of the 21st century and those threats will require a much more sophisticated platform than we have in fourth-generation aircraft.”

This was because the F-35 had “a suite of advanced avionics that provide a superior 360 degrees of situational awareness that can target, track and, if needed, engage a variety of threats to North America whether it be small bots (swarms of tiny weapons), UAVs, advanced long-range cruise missiles, all the way to commercial airliners.

“The threat is going to become more complex. Information dominance across all spectrums will be essential. That is the F-35’s strength.”

Dubie, whose father was from Trois Rivieres, Que., emphasized that he did not wish his remarks to be construed as a criticism of the Canadian government.

“I am not trying to be disrespectful to your prime minister or your minister of defence. I am not being cavalier,” he said. “I am not saying he is wrong. I am saying the threat is going to demand fifth-generation aircraft.”

A command pilot with 1,500 hours on the F-16s and hundreds of hours on other jets, Dubie said he had reached this conclusion based on what he had learned from flying NORAD missions charged with intercepting Russian aircraft.

“Around Alaska, they have become incredulous about the aggressiveness of the Russians,” he said. “They are launching complex package of airplanes — bombers, Mi-G-31s (fighters) and tankers — with navy ships below. When we send out AWACS (reconnaissance planes), F-22s and tankers, they are sucking up all our data. It is an orchestrated, sophisticated air campaign the likes of which we have never seen before. They are getting better and more aggressive.”

Dubie’s opinion is significant because of the key jobs he has held helping to oversee the defence of North America and because he does not work for either Lockheed or Boeing.

Since last November he has been the president of Revision Military Technologies, a Vermont-based subsidiary of Montreal’s Revision Military Inc., which makes military eyewear and tactical gear.

While not closely informed on the manufacturing schedules of the F-35 or the Super Hornet, which first flew 21 years ago, he said that “what I do know about the Super Hornet is that it is near the end of the line. As I understand the timeline, the F-35 would be available to cover any capability gap on the NORAD mission.”

Dubie rejected the reasoning of F-35 critics who have said that because it has a single engine and the Super Hornet has twin engines, the latter aircraft was a superior choice for operations across the vastness of the north. He noted that the USAF had operated single-engine F-16s for years from a base in northern Alaska, and intended to soon replace those jets with F-35s that had “even more reliable” engines.

The Danes and Norwegians intended to defend the High Arctic with F-35s, too, he said.

“I am not against the Super Hornet,” Dubie said. “What I am saying is that the F-35 will have greater inter-operability with the U.S. fleet and other NATO partners.”

Asked what was the most prudent way for Canada to make the crucial, multi-billion dollar decision about which aircraft was best to defend the country for the next 40 years, Dubie replied “the ultimate question is why would you not have an open competition in Canada? If you have a competition, the strengths and weaknesses of the air frames will come out.

“I cannot envisage any scenario in which the F-35 does not come out better than the Super Hornet or any other aircraft. Fourth-generation jets, they just aren’t as capable.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/fourth-generation-super-hornets-just-cant-do-the-job-in-the-arctic-retired-u-s-air-force-general-insists
 
A retired USAF General with extensive experience both as a fighter pilot, and in a command position with NORAD - who isn't employed by either company?  Pffftttttt....what could he possibly know... 
 
Journeyman said:
Perhaps we're looking at this problem the wrong way.  Given the right technological upgrades, it looks like the latest versions of artificial intelligence (AI) are now able to outperform experienced combat pilots.  Interestingly the AI “pilot” can defeat human pilots who have more advanced aircraft.
Maybe Super Hornets are good enough;  we just need to get rid of all those pesky pilots.    :stirpot:

LINK

Extracts:

Artificial intelligence (AI) developed by a University of Cincinnati doctoral graduate was recently assessed by subject-matter expert and retired United States Air Force Colonel Gene Lee -- who holds extensive aerial combat experience as an instructor and Air Battle Manager with considerable fighter aircraft expertise -- in a high-fidelity air combat simulator.

....[Col. Lee] took to manual controls against a more mature version of ALPHA last October. Not only was Lee not able to score a kill against ALPHA after repeated attempts, he was shot out of the air every time during protracted engagements in the simulator.



Pre-emptive calming:  Yes, I know it's just a simulation, and the article is  focused on AI, not specifically on air combat or procurement.  It was posted for interest, knowing that all those unemployed pilots would overwhelm the Int / PAO / TDO worlds.  >:D

I think the biggest flaw of the test they performed is the proficiency of the person they used to fly against the AI.  He is a retired Col, meaning, I assume, he hadn't flown fighters in a while, nevermind new generation's fighters.  If you don't practice in this buisness, you lose your edge very rapidly.  I a matter of a couple of months, you need a significant amount of flying to regain your proficiency.
 
I'd like to know how big the PC was to compute everything that fast. Definitely not a desktop size.
 
By a former CF-104 and CF-18 pilot--exceprts:

Alan Stephenson – Flying Blind on Procurement
...
“Estimate the situation. Do not situate the estimate.” This fundamental lesson is taught to all junior officers in the Canadian Armed Forces who are being trained in how to examine all relevant factors, determine possible courses of action and select the most appropriate option to achieve their objectives. It’s called an estimate of the situation — or just ‘estimate’ for short.

‘Situating the estimate’ means deciding beforehand the course of action one wants to follow, then rationalizing that decision through the motions of the estimate process. In other words, it’s shaping one’s analysis to fit the desired outcome — a flawed approach to military operations, but one that the Liberal government evidently has decided is acceptable when it comes to finding a replacement for the CF-18 fighter aircraft.

With its plan to sole-source the Super Hornet as an ‘interim’ solution, the Trudeau government has demonstrated clearly that it never intended to fulfill its election promise to “immediately launch an open and transparent competition to replace the F-18 fighter aircraft.” That’s unfortunate, since it calls into question the validity of the ongoing Defence Policy Review process. If Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan has decided already on a solution and is shaping the CF-18 narrative to fit the desired outcome, then Canadians should expect nothing less from the Defence Policy Review.

For starters, the sudden appearance of Minister Sajjan’s “capability gap” in the current CF-18 fleet is questionable, given that the Commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force assured the Standing Committee on National Defence in April that the CF-18s would remain operationally capable until 2025...

It was heartening to believe that the Liberal government would step away from their party pledge to dismiss the F-35 as a possible replacement for the CF-18 and run a mature transparent purchasing process. There are sound reasons to consider both the Super Hornet and the F-35 to replace the venerable CF-18s — but without a transparent selection process that analyzes and considers the four dimensions of military procurement (political, operational, technological and economic) the government may placate party loyalists, but Canadians will not be assured of receiving the best value for their defence dollar.

An interim solution ultimately might make sense — but generally, most such solutions are costly in the long run and less than effective in meeting unforeseen contingencies.

The Liberals’ credibility is at stake in this decision. Transparency was to be the hallmark of this government. Good governance demands that sound public policy trump parochial political platforms. If the Super Hornet is truly the right solution for Canada, then a public procurement process would establish that fact. But the evidence suggests that Canada does not face a ‘capability gap’ that would require a quick, sole-source solution.

In ‘situating the estimate’, Minister Sajjan does himself and the Liberal government a disservice — unless it is the intent of the new government to play the same old political games with military procurement.

Alan Stephenson is a fellow at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, holds a PhD from Carleton University and is a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces with 3,600 fighter hours flying third generation CF-104 Starfighters and fourth generation CF-18 Hornets.
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/07/05/alan-stephenson-flying-blind-on-procurement/

Mark
Ottawa
 
Good article, albeit short, from our friend Lee Berthiaume.

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2016/07/05/defence-minister-set-to-lay-out-next-steps-to-replace-aging-fighter-jets-3/#.V3xZgTWq0sR

Defence minister set to lay out next steps to replace aging fighter jets

By Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press — Jul 5 2016

OTTAWA — Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan will shed some light on how the government plans to replace Canada's aging fighter jets in an address to defence and aerospace industry officials Wednesday.

The much-anticipated update will not include an announcement on what aircraft will replace Canada's CF-18s, said Sajjan's spokeswoman, Jordan Owens. The minister will instead lay out what "short-term next steps" the government intends to take on the file.

The Liberals have been under pressure to say something about the replacement plan since reports last month that they were considering buying Boeing Super Hornet fighter jets without a competition.

The government has insisted no decision has been made, but it also says new warplanes are urgently needed to address a "gap" in the air force's fighter jet capabilities. In particular, the Liberals have said there aren't enough CF-18s to meet all of Canada's defence commitments.

Critics, however, have pointed to Royal Canadian Air Force commander Lt.-Gen. Michael Hood's comments to the Commons defence committee in April as proof the Liberals are manufacturing a crisis.

Hood said the CF-18 fleet should be able to operate through 2025 thanks to a $500-million upgrade ordered by the Conservatives in 2014. Twenty-six out of 77 CF-18s have already undergone structural work to fly through the mid-2020s, and electronic upgrades are planned.

Owens said Sajjan's speech will provide more detail on the current state of the CF-18 fleet. The minister will also talk to industry representatives about other military procurement projects, many of which are facing delays and other problems.

The Liberals promised during last year's election that they would hold an open competition to replace the CF-18s. At the same time, they promised not to buy the F-35. This, however, created a potential legal situation if the government was seen to discriminate against the stealth fighter.

The F-35 has previously won competitions in South Korea, Japan and Denmark.

Postmedia reported in June that the government was considering whether to use an exemption in federal procurement laws to buy Super Hornets as an "interim" measure to address the capability gap. That would let it to sole-source the planes without fear of a lawsuit.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said in the House of Commons last month that the F-35 "does not work and is far from working." A few weeks later, he refused to say whether his government remains committed to holding an open competition to replace the CF-18s.

"We are working very, very hard and thoughtfully to ensure that we deliver to our forces the right jets the right way at the right price," he told reporters at the time. "That's what Canadians expect of us, and that's what we are going to be doing."

The previous Conservative government announced in 2010 that Canada would be buying 65 F-35 stealth fighters without a competition. The Liberals, who at the time were in third place in the House of Commons, were critical of not holding a competition.

Both Boeing and Lockheed Martin, the U.S. defence giant behind the F-35, have engaged in fierce lobbying and public relations campaigns to convince Canadians and politicians that their fighter jet is best for the country.

Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press
 
And here's the MND's announcement:

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2016/07/06/defence-minister-insists-jets-must-be-replaced-soon-but-cant-give-timeline-2/#.V304JjWq0sR

Sajjan going back to drawing board on fighter jets, launching consultations

By The Canadian Press — The Canadian Press — Jul 6 2016

OTTAWA — The Liberal government is launching yet another round of consultations with industry to find a new fighter jet for Canada.

Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan announced the approach on Wednesday, as he told industry representatives that only about half of Canada's existing CF-18 fighter jets are capable of flying at any given time.

Sajjan says the government will sit down with fighter jet companies to determine what their aircraft will cost, what economic benefits they can offer Canada and how fast they can deliver.

The minister emphasized the need for speed, warning that Canada can't currently meet its commitments to both NATO and North American defence.

The previous Conservative government launched a similar round of consultations with industry several years ago, when it pushed pause on plans to buy the F-35 stealth fighter.

The results of those consultations, which included a review by an independent panel of experts, were largely favourable to the F-35 — which the Liberals promised during the last election they wouldn't buy.

Same text, but some video here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sajjan-procurement-fighter-jets-1.3666625

My summary: "We have no idea what to do. We said we wouldn't buy the F-35, but if we hold a competition it's going to win. We need "consultations" on how to cook the books so something else wins, so we don't look bad politically."
 
PuckChaser said:
And here's the MND's announcement:

http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2016/07/06/defence-minister-insists-jets-must-be-replaced-soon-but-cant-give-timeline-2/#.V304JjWq0sR

Same text, but some video here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sajjan-procurement-fighter-jets-1.3666625

My summary: "We have no idea what to do. We said we wouldn't buy the F-35, but if we hold a competition it's going to win. We need "consultations" on how to cook the books so something else wins, so we don't look bad politically."

LSVW anyone?
 
A new study/process is a valid looking COA that provides a secure buffer from the next step;  doing something/spending money.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
A new study/process is a valid looking COA that provides a secure buffer from the next step;  doing something/spending money.

:nod:
 
"Farce, flipping farce. The endless Canadian Procurement Gong Show!":

New RCAF Fighter: Consult, Consult, Consult (with industry)–Why Not Just Compete?

Keep in mind that the previous government already conducted an extensive “evaluation of options” for the CF-18 replacement in 2013-14 but then made no procurement decision before losing the October 2015 election–some key documents...
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/07/06/mark-collins-new-rcaf-fighter-consult-consult-consult-with-industry-why-not-just-compete/

And how come that capability gap, including mentioning NATO (have not heard a government saying that before), suddenly popped up?

Mark
Ottawa
 
One can readily see how the government is scripting this:

1) Urgent need for some fighters (24/32=two squadrons, one for Cold Lake, one for Bagotville?) to deal with "capability gap";

2) Only Boeing can provide really soon;

3) Ergo must buy Super Hornets as interim measure; and then end up buying all Super Hornet fleet as a mixed fleet too expensive.

QED.

Mark
Ottawa
 
MarkOttawa said:
One can readily see how the government is scripting this:

1) Urgent need for some fighters (24/32=two squadrons, one for Cold Lake, one for Bagotville?) to deal with "capability gap";

2) Only Boeing can provide really soon;

3) Ergo must buy Super Hornets as interim measure; and then end up buying all Super Hornet fleet as a mixed fleet too expensive.

QED.

Mark
Ottawa
Not sure that will save them from legal action by LM or a NFTA claim worth billions.
 
MarkOttawa said:
And how come that capability gap, including mentioning NATO (have not heard a government saying that before), suddenly popped up?
It is convenient?  We have the same capability gap for just about everything for which we have commitments.  If one were to add up all the tasks that the Army is to be ready for, you would also find that we run out of land forces before everything is covered.  There is a planning assumption, that governments have typically been very happy with, that not all our commitments will come calling at the same time.

 
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