Segregation in Messes

[Jarnhamar]

Perhaps I am wrong, but I take it from your post, that you are easily offended.

I'm professionally offended when a supervisor in the combat arms who can barely pass a fitness test, asks privates what to pack on exercise (and who's been apparently promoted as a means of being off loaded on others) tries to jack me up for something they're constantly guilty of doing themselves.  An example of this behavior; jacking up two soldiers for wrestling in front of their tent for being inappropriate only to sit down an hour later at supper in the kitchen and unscrew the top of a salt shaker so it pours in someones food. Or throws food.  Yup that easily and quickly offends me.

Do you not find it very bad leadership when a leader jacks a subordinate up for something and then does whatever it is themselves?


You may assume that I made the wrong  career choice, I'll stick by my belief that leaders should lead by example and subordinates in the military should not be disciplined by their supervisors in the same manner that a parent disciplines their child.

I think  you have enough time in the CF to realize what happens when you treat soldiers like children.

 

[mariomike]

I am sure that you will find the same characteristics in members of Police, Fire and other Emergency Services, who have the difficult task of facing the possibility of death every day.  If you can't, and need to 'run away' every time something offends you, another calling may be in order.

The "black humour" after the call demonstrates the high degree of trust and confidence you have in your partner. I found it to be the single most important factor in the work we did together.

There was also an unspoken agreement to not use such humour with friends, family or members of the public.

 

[myself.only]

I think todays NCMs and officers can be professional enough to live in a somewhat shared environment and still maintain proper discipline.  :2c:

In fact, perhaps the unsegregated dining messes might be an environment that's more instructive for junior officers negotiating their learning curve as leaders, compared to the artificially tidy split between leaders and subordinates provided through traditional segregated messing.
Essentially an ongoing, natural reminder to the 2Lt "careful how you treat / act with the men, you have to work with them, rely on them, dine with them etc."

Then leave the drinking messes segregated to permit everyone a chance to unwind, debate or ***** etc.
Just my  :2c:

 

[Kat Stevens]

I think an important component of a jacking is the tone you use.  I have been jacked up plenty of times by my OC's for stupid shit I did.  It's how you respond to that jacking that makes you a professional.  I remember getting called into my Coy Comd's office and getting a strip torn off me for some dumb shit I did, later on at the mess we had a beer and laughed about it and all my buddies also had a go poking fun at me  ;D

If you can't handle a little criticism then you have no business wearing the red sash or possessing a commission, my  :2c:

On the other hand, a lot of people watch too many movies and think every jacking has to be like something straight out of Full Metal Jacket, this itself is very unprofessional and I have been guilty of this but as you get more experience you will find their are better methods of getting what you want from someone.

Also with this, I was always more than okay with having stupid shit corrected, but if the jacker ever devolved to the playground and started in with name calling, I very quickly took it personally.  Attack the behaviour all you want, don't attack the man, treat me like a child and I can become the most ill tempered six year old you ever met in a short amount of time.

 

[George Wallace]

I'm professionally offended when a supervisor in the combat arms who can barely pass a fitness test, asks privates what to pack on exercise (and who's been apparently promoted as a means of being off loaded on others) tries to jack me up for something they're constantly guilty of doing themselves.  An example of this behavior; jacking up two soldiers for wrestling in front of their tent for being inappropriate only to sit down an hour later at supper in the kitchen and unscrew the top of a salt shaker so it pours in someones food. Or throws food.  Yup that easily and quickly offends me.

Do you not find it very bad leadership when a leader jacks a subordinate up for something and then does whatever it is themselves?


You may assume that I made the wrong  career choice, I'll stick by my belief that leaders should lead by example and subordinates in the military should not be disciplined by their supervisors in the same manner that a parent disciplines their child.

I think  you have enough time in the CF to realize what happens when you treat soldiers like children.

Yes, indeed those types doe exist, and those events do happen.  Yes, you are right in your beliefs. 

Honestly, it is amazing how we preach professionalism and credibility, and then shoot ourselves in the foot by passing and promoting those people.

 

[Sgt_McWatt]

The messes being torn down in London is front page (local) news right now because of the number of building being removed from Wolseley Barracks.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/07/29/base-insiders-say-there-are-many-reasons-eight-buildings-on-wolseley-barracks-should-be-kept

It will be a loss of excellent gym facilities considering all of the upgrades in Beaver Hall since 2005, however, the building could easily accommodate 3, substantially smaller, separate messes.

 

[Michael OLeary]

It will be a loss of excellent gym facilities considering all of the upgrades in Beaver Hall since 2005, however, the building could easily accommodate 3, substantially smaller, separate messes.

The "gym" is already gone, equipment sold and PSP employees gone. The building stands empty right now, although available as a training facility again.

 

[Navy_Pete]

It is not always about leading them, it is about having willing followers.  I am not sure the Navy folks would agree with your assessment, I know I don't.  I am not sure the junior folks enjoy having their bosses at their tables to listen to the meal time conversation and I know that the Captains of HMCS still enjoy the privacy of the Captain's table.  I still believe that familiarity breeds content.  It can be hard to be disciplined by someone and then break bread with them soon after.

I don't think the ships Captains get much privacy while they eat; generally they seem to be monitoring a few different radio channels, looking at the radar, and either catching up on paperwork or being briefed on something while at sea.

A few times during my training (combined MSEng and CSEng) when the course of 20 was attached to a ship they would rotate some of us through the Jr. ranks for meals just because of the lack of space in the wardroom to sit down.  It was a good way to figure out as an A/SLt that you need to chuck sh&t back and how to get along with folks without being a pushover.  For the OJT part where you dependent on the techs (generally LS and MS) to learn how things worked, so it was a pretty important lesson, and carried on to the other phases of our training on board which is mostly self directed OJT.  Was more of a happy coincidence then intentional, but I know I personally got a few mistakes  out of the way (nothing serious) there which were basically forgotten by anyone else as I was just one of a faceless mass.

 

[George Wallace]

......  I still believe that familiarity breeds content.  .......

So do I.  >

 

[Mr. St-Cyr]

Just put a small sign on a table that says ''Reserved for Officers / Senior NCO's''. I routinely eat and socialize with NCO's that I personally work with/know but sharing a table with junior ranks is where I draw the line. A lot of them have a habit of getting too familiar for some odd reason. I do not have that problem with NCO's at all; perhaps they know better. The familiarity breeds content for  and saps the chain of command.

 

[cupper]

I still believe that familiarity breeds content contempt.

The familiarity breeds content contempt for  and saps the chain of command.

FTFY

The more acquainted one becomes with a person, the more one knows about his or her shortcomings and, hence, the easier it is to dislike that person.

 

[Gunner98]

FTFY

The more acquainted one becomes with a person, the more one knows about his or her shortcomings and, hence, the easier it is to dislike that person.

So after 11 days, you want to play copy-editor without adding anything to the thread.  Thanks cupper.  Maybe I meant content and was not using an old saw.  But thanks... ???

cupper according to your profile you and I were in Cornwallis in 1993 - did you enjoy the separate drinking messes or did you like to dine with the recruits and party with their families at the grad parties?

 

[McG]

Having attended formal mess dinners in all-ranks dining cafeterias and then then trudged across base to Sgts' & WOs' Mess or to Officers' Mess, I found the atmosphere to have taken an unfortunate hit.  I hope we do not fully do away with the formal dining halls on bases.  There is nothing wrong with that dining hall being shared by officers and sr NCOs for day to day purposes.

Of course, I say that without having looked at the costs.  It is a time of restraint, and we should not be consuming excess public funds where they are not needed.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Having attended formal mess dinners in all-ranks dining cafeterias and then then trudged across base to Sgts' & WOs' Mess or to Officers' Mess, I found the atmosphere to have taken an unfortunate hit.  I hope we do not fully do away with the formal dining halls on bases.  There is nothing wrong with that dining hall being shared by officers and sr NCOs for day to day purposes.

Of course, I say that without having looked at the costs.  It is a time of restraint, and we should not be consuming excess public funds where they are not needed.

Perhaps if funds were pooled, the atmosphere would be improved? Hard to feel at home when the dining hall resembles a hospital cafeteria...  :-\

 

[cupper]

Having attended formal mess dinners in all-ranks dining cafeterias and then then trudged across base to Sgts' & WOs' Mess or to Officers' Mess, I found the atmosphere to have taken an unfortunate hit.  I hope we do not fully do away with the formal dining halls on bases.  There is nothing wrong with that dining hall being shared by officers and sr NCOs for day to day purposes.

Of course, I say that without having looked at the costs.  It is a time of restraint, and we should not be consuming excess public funds where they are not needed.

I know that when they went to the combined eating mess in Cornwallis, for any mess dinners they reopened the dining room and kitchen in the Officer's Mess for the event. I believe the same was true for the WO's & Sgts Mess as well. 

 

[pbi]

...We used to fight to serve at both Mess' for their Mess Dinners, just for the after dinner 'bonus'.  ;D  Not to mention the booze we would 'syphon off' during the dinners.  But that would be telling.....

Now it is "below the dignity of our soldiers" to so task them, and of course unacceptable under NPF rules, TB rules, and whatever other regulations brought into effect, etc.

Times have changed.

As a young Res soldier I happily volunteered to serve at both Officers' and WOs/Sgts' Mess dinners. As you say, it was generally thought of as a "good go" because you were well fed (usually much more than you could actually eat) and many wine and port decanters were (at least partially...) "decanted" for our purposes., which was also good. I know that in those days we thought it was all fun.

What I'm talking about when  I refer to legacy ideas is the mindset that assumes without question that soldiers should act as servers, or servants, to officers (or to WOs/Sgts for that matter). To me, the day for that point of view is gone.

 

[a_majoor]

Of course how the Mess Dinner is run also has a lot to do with how "successful" it is. I once attended a dinner with spouses (a very long time ago) where the PMC apparently thought that wives were also beholden to the rule that no one leave the table until after the port is served. Needless to say, my wife NEVER attended a mess dinner with me again (and yes, stupidity like this turned me off mess dinners as well).

 

[ModlrMike]

Of course how the Mess Dinner is run also has a lot to do with how "successful" it is. I once attended a dinner with spouses (a very long time ago) where the PMC apparently thought that wives were also beholden to the rule that no one leave the table until after the port is served. Needless to say, my wife NEVER attended a mess dinner with me again (and yes, stupidity like this turned me off mess dinners as well).

Therein lies the problem. Dinners that include spouses are more properly "dining-in" affairs. Different rules completely.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

(and yes, stupidity like this turned me off mess dinners as well).

It has been a while since I attended a Mess Dinner that precluded one from getting up prior to the toast - and most if not all now have a programmed break.  These days, if I need to pee or have a smoke, I simply do so, and expect others will as well (then again, I have been in long enough that my small bladder and extreme tobacco consumption is a relatively well-known and accepted fact).

No point in paying big bucks for a dinner and then arbitrarily torturing yourself....

 

[Old EO Tech]

It has been a while since I attended a Mess Dinner that precluded one from getting up prior to the toast - and most if not all now have a programmed break.  These days, if I need to pee or have a smoke, I simply do so, and expect others will as well (then again, I have been in long enough that my small bladder and extreme tobacco consumption is a relatively well-known and accepted fact).

No point in paying big bucks for a dinner and then arbitrarily torturing yourself....

Just don't leave your name plate sitting at the table when you are off for your break, or you might find you made an odd request to the PMC   Some traditions are still running strong

Jon