As usual the Americans get nothing but love for their sacrifices....

[48Highlander]

ahh they are alowed to be rude.   they pay your salary. ;D

stop being a butthole

yea love them liberals so PC yet so ignornant.   I loved being called a baby killer don't you. :rage:

Next time grab 'em by the shirt, lean in, and growl "There aint nuthin as good as bayonetting babies".  For some reason, even though they acuse you of being a baby killer, they don't seem to expect that sort of reaction....

 

[FastEddy]

48,

If the US is such a staunch supporter of freedom and democracy the world over and does such admirable work, as you suggest, then why is it that they are the most despised nation on the face of the Earth?   And let's avoid citing everyone elses superpower inferiority complex...

Yes, you are most certainly allowed to express your opinons on this Forum. However, it seems quite clear
that you really do not have very much to offer in that area.
Regardless of what ever reasons, the fact that U.S. Servicemen and Women are dying
every day for freedom & democracy seems to have escaped you, while you sit all comfee and cosy U.S Bashing.

 

[camochick]

Yes, you are most certainly allowed to express your opinons on this Forum. However, it seems quite clear
that you really do not have very much to offer in that area.
Regardless of what ever reasons, the fact that U.S. Servicemen and Women are dying
every day for freedom & democracy seems to have escaped you, while you sit all comfee and cosy U.S Bashing.

I have the deepest respect for soldiers. They do the dirty work and get none of the recognition. However, did anyone ask if these people want democracy? IS democracy really the answer? I feel terrible that young men and women are dying in iraq but was it really necessary?

Oh and not all liberals(god I hate being labelled) think soldiers are babykillers. I defend the military on a daily basis from all the hippies I encounter and my opinions are very left sided.

 

[CivU]

"the fact that U.S. Servicemen and Women are dying every day for freedom & democracy"

I feel for the soldiers in Iraq who are merely doing their job as ordered; however, the freedom and democracy slant is pretty weak.  How is this happening?  Where is the freedom and democracy?

 

[muskrat89]

Where is the freedom and democracy

I guess you haven't heard about the elections...  :

 

[a_majoor]

I have the deepest respect for soldiers. They do the dirty work and get none of the recognition. However, did anyone ask if these people want democracy? IS democracy really the answer? I feel terrible that young men and women are dying in iraq but was it really necessary?

You will get your answer very soon. The Iraqis will go to the polls, and over 80% of the population intends to vote according to a recent poll. Given the high level of threat and the open challenge to democracy posted by the Jihadis, it is a case for some unfortunate citizens they will vote, or die trying. Contrast that to Canada, where a rain shower seem to be enough to dissuade voters from going to the polls.

It is difficult to imagine what other sort of system would provide the liberty that a democratic government does, but if you can find a working example, please post it.

 

[Glorified Ape]

As much as the US-bashers have selective memories, it seems the Ameriphiles have the same problem. This "poor, poor US" bit is slightly absurd if you consider that alongside every great US intervention there's the propping up of a dictatorship, arms sales and training to countries busy slaughtering their populations (or someone else's), etc. Canada does this crap too, which we also tend to forget.

The US does good things and bad things, lets not forget the latter in our stampede to swoon over the former.

 

[camochick]

I don't have an answer to that because in reality there is no other system that would afford us the freedoms we have now. It would be great if there was, but I am no political scientist so I have no plans of coming up with one anytime soon. I guess my questions were just thoughts about the fact that those of us who live in democracies feel the need to spread it around and force it upon others(not everyone , but in general). I also see a ton of holes in the whole democracy is freedom. However, i am glad I live where i live and have the freedoms i have. I just wonder if there is another way to go about helping people obtaining freedom.

 

[Pikache]

As much as the US-bashers have selective memories, it seems the Ameriphiles have the same problem. This "poor, poor US" bit is slightly absurd if you consider that alongside every great US intervention there's the propping up of a dictatorship, arms sales and training to countries busy slaughtering their populations (or someone else's), etc. Canada does this crap too, which we also tend to forget.

The US does good things and bad things, lets not forget the latter in our stampede to swoon over the former.

I don't disagree that US did some really questionable things, but it just really annoys me when all the 'Yankee go home' guys automatically paste the Great Satan with muck. (the vice versa with Yank lovers annoy me also)

 

[Wizard of OZ]

I don't think there would be a freer society then a truly democratic one.  But even in the US and Canada that is being stretched.  As once elected the people have little control for say 4 yrs over what happens in government.  I think if the senate (in Canada) was elected as well then it may be a bit different. 

It is much better then ohh say totalitarian or communist or monarchy. 

The soldiers are always just following orders but you have to wonder if they believe things will get better.  For their sake we will find out sooner rather then later.

 

[a_majoor]

As much as the US-bashers have selective memories, it seems the Ameriphiles have the same problem. This "poor, poor US" bit is slightly absurd if you consider that alongside every great US intervention there's the propping up of a dictatorship, arms sales and training to countries busy slaughtering their populations (or someone else's), etc. Canada does this crap too, which we also tend to forget.

The US does good things and bad things, lets not forget the latter in our stampede to swoon over the former.

The US was guilty of propping up dictatorships in the quest for "Stability", and were rightly condemmned for this. It is a bit absurd that now that they have seen the error of their ways, and are working to undo the mistakes of the past, they are being roundly condemned for toppling dictatorships...

 

[1feral1]

Contrast that to Canada, where a rain shower seem to be enough to dissuade voters from going to the polls.

Here in Australia it is compulsory to vote and you are FINED if you don't vote federally. State and local council elections too. There is no escaping it (illness etc is acceptable).

Elections are ALWAYS on a Saturday, and no time off to vote is given. The onus is on YOU to vote, or pay the fine.

Yesterday between 10-13,000 Iraqis living in Australia voted already. So the birth of democarcy has already begun by thier citizens voting overseas not only here but in over a dozen other countries already. There was a high level of security here for them, even here there is a risk.

This way everyone votes. Its democarcy and it works. As much as dispise the entire region over there, lets hope more good things happen, as the media always plays on the negative for ratings. In a way they are a bigger enemy than the bad guys.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[T.I.M.]

Well, I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but elections not synonymous with democracy or freedom, nor do the latter two necessarily follow from the former.

Elections are just the most visible aspect of democracy, but there are many other things a democracy requires such as rule of law, respect for minority rights, free press, civic responsibility and so on.   In Iraq these things are either nascent, seriously challenged, or non-existant, and their development will not necessarily follow from a "successful" election.   The Whitehouse formulation of 50%+ turnout equating with success contains some serious misdirection.   After all, the Shia are going to turn out it record numbers not because they respect democratic principles, but because it is a way for them to gain power over the Sunni minority.   This is not a healthy foundation for democratic development.

In my opinion the election will likely change very little.   The voters are not selecting individuals, or even parties with distinct platforms, but broad "lists" whose positions on specific issues are largely unknown.   These lists will then among themselves select who will run the country.  It's very probable that Iraq will end up with much the same government with most of the same people as it had prior to the elections, the Sunni will remain alienated and dissatisfied, and the insurgency will continue.

The big change will be for Washington, as elections will be a significant PR coup for the administration, and will allow it to portray its mission in a more positive light.   As for Iraq, if things turn out well elections may be a step towards democracy, but it'll be a very small step.

 

[CivU]

"I guess you haven't heard about the elections... "

I don't know that these elections will represent freedom and democracy, its essentially hoop jumping in order to put a leader into power that is complacent and accepting of US policy.  It happened in Panama following the Noriega ousting and more recently in Afghanistan...hardly the epitome of freedom and democracy.

 

[muskrat89]

I don't know that these elections will represent freedom and democracy, its essentially hoop jumping in order to put a leader into power that is complacent and accepting of US policy.

based on what?

 

[CivU]

Comparable history...

Do yourself a favour and look into Panama circa 1989...

 

[muskrat89]

I think you need to do yourself a favour and.....  oh, never mind.

We're not discussing Panama, in case you hadn't noticed. I would like to know what evidence you can provide to the board that supports the notion that " its essentially hoop jumping in order to put a leader into power that is complacent and accepting of US policy"

Otherwise, it is just your opinion.

 

[winchable]

Well amidst a bit of snark he makes a point though perhaps not the one he'd like.
History has a habit of repeating itself regardless of who's acting it out, so the only way we will ever be able truly judge the US's actions will be in 10-20 years or so.
Which should be enough for both sides to stuff it for a while and get the job done before praises are sung on either side.



And the article is funny(not "haha" funny though), I have a friend (Who until recently was quite close) who went to work for an aid agency. When I went in the direction I'm going he distanced himself from me and I've gotten quite a few "oh nice china"-type comments from him since.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

"I guess you haven't heard about the elections... "

I don't know that these elections will represent freedom and democracy, its essentially hoop jumping in order to put a leader into power that is complacent and accepting of US policy.   It happened in Panama following the Noriega ousting and more recently in Afghanistan...hardly the epitome of freedom and democracy.

Subtle suggestion:
Review the following flash site by the Globe & Mail:  www.theglobeandmail.com/special/flash/Iraq/
Then do a search and look up the CIA estimates that put Allawi (The U.S.A.'s preferred candidate) in a distant 3rd place with Al-Sistani's Shi'a Party in a strong lead with the Kurds in second.

Then reconsider your statement and the implication, because neither are based on anything resembling the facts on the ground.

Thanks,



Matthew.  

 

[CivU]

You honestly think that after several years and almost 1500 American lives the United States is going to permit a leader to gain power in Iraq that is not on board with their plans for the country...?  I don't think I'm the one out of touch with whats happening...