Segregation in Messes

[Lumber]

So, this will be more of a comment then a question, but maybe it will generate some lively discussion.

CFB Esquimalt, as a cost saving measure, shutdown the cafeteria at the Chief and PO's mess and combined it with that of the wardroom. Fine by me! Do whatever you have to do to save a buck. But apparently, as an Officer, I would be so upset by the sight of a senior NCM eating near me that they have cordoned off the eating area into two sections. They even put in place theselittle fabric walls as dividers so I don't have to gaze upon such unsightly beings as senior NCMs.  :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

Anyone else this as taking the segregation of messes a little too far? It's not even a drinking mess, just a cafeteria for cripes sake! I'd much rather shoot the shit with some of the crusty old chiefs and hear their war stories over dinner then sit in silence with some of the weird and anti social or ultra elitist officers who show up.

 

[Michael OLeary]

That barrier also protects those old Chiefs from the company of "some of the weird and anti social or ultra elitist officers who show up." The Chiefs may not be as ready to consider that the potential for your gracious company makes up for the added possibility of the company of some of your peers. Conversely, it also protects you from being joined by a bitter NCO who sees you at dinner as a captive audience for his chosen points of discussion. Keep in mind, that there and good and bad options on that path of wide open access.

 

[Lumber]

Hmm... never thought about it from the other side.

Mind blown! I think I just suffered some professional development!

 

[Pat in Halifax]

This is happening in Halifax too and now with A Galley closed, everyone is being fed from the same area though Officers have a separate Dining Area. There was some resistance at first from some as people were naturally wandering into areas they shouldn't have but we have to learn to live with it in this day and age of dwindling budgets.
I (personally) believe that the segregation is necessary for reasons I wont get into here but I am sure those who have transitioned from one Mess to another will agree; Generally Messes are considered a privileged platform (What happens in the Mess or is said in the Mess stays in the Mess) for some discussions.
As for Esquimalt, I am told that the C + POs Mess still has the sandwich bar at lunch (???)

Pat

 

[Old EO Tech]

That barrier also protects those old Chiefs from the company of "some of the weird and anti social or ultra elitist officers who show up." The Chiefs may not be as ready to consider that the potential for your gracious company makes up for the added possibility of the company of some of your peers. Conversely, it also protects you from being joined by a bitter NCO who sees you at dinner as a captive audience for his chosen points of discussion. Keep in mind, that there and good and bad options on that path of wide open access.

You beat me too it  ;D

Jon

 

[Robert0288]

So to get this straight.  We're talking about a normal mess for meals, and not the drinking mess?

Kingston has that, and no issues there that I've seen.  They do have a little sectioned off area that I've seen foreign dignitaries use on the rare occasion.

 

[PuckChaser]

So to get this straight.  We're talking about a normal mess for meals, and not the drinking mess?

Kingston has that, and no issues there that I've seen.  They do have a little sectioned off area that I've seen foreign dignitaries use on the rare occasion.

Pet has it too, but I guess budget cuts are just getting to the RCN now.

 

[ModlrMike]

Interestingly, the galley at NOTC Venture is all ranks with none of the aforementioned segregation.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Pet has it too, but I guess budget cuts are just getting to the RCN now.

Nah it's the RCN, they are firm believers in segregation. 

 

[Fdtrucker]

Wainwright has closed both the Dining Facilities of the Offr Mess and the WOs and Sgt mess last year. Now everyone eat out of the All Rank Dining Facility but there is a divider between the Offrs/WO&Sgts from the Jr NCMs. Edmonton still has the Offrs eating at the WO&Sgts Mess Monday to Friday only

 

[armyvern]

Gagetown, Trenton and Kingston merged their dining messes years ago; no segregated seating ... no issues.

Borden merged the Sgt & WOs into the Officer's Dining Hall in 2009 while I was there on my year long french course; no segregation & no issues.

We save the really good chatter for the drinking messes which are still separate else there may be issues.

 

[PuckChaser]

We save the really good chatter for the drinking messes which are still separate else there may be issues.

Which might not be a reality for much longer, if some people in Kingston get their way. Eyes have been prying into the JR Ranks mess for a few years, despite Garrison Officers having 4 messes they can attend...

 

[jollyjacktar]

Gagetown, Trenton and Kingston merged their dining messes years ago; no segregated seating ... no issues.

Borden merged the Sgt & WOs into the Officer's Dining Hall in 2009 while I was there on my year long french course; no segregation & no issues.

We save the really good chatter for the drinking messes which are still separate else there may be issues.

Valcartier was the same way as well when I was there doing workup training.  No-one had any issues or problems with sitting and eating together.  Sometimes, (gasp) even at the same table.  Talking with each other.

We even had a combined mess for a period when I was in the Militia.  Everyone got along and played nice with each other.  It was pleasant.

 

[sandyson]

When I first entered the officers' mess of the Royal Canadian School of Infantry at Borden, I was struck by the history it contained in the decoration--especially the silver. I missed that as I left the service with combined messes years later.  Nonetheless a modern army is no longer a pyramid in social and command structure, so the change is not only necessary financially--though they'll waste any savings elsewhere, the change is consistent with the modern battle field where a soldier is no longer an expendable but rather is as critical to success as many in 'command'.  Likewise regimental messes which insulate soldiers from the combined arms environment are no longer relevant.  Still, they were grand while they lasted.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Personally I like the common dining areas; it's a good way to get to know all the folks you work with and talk about something other then work.  It's not all that hard to avoid talking to folks you don't want to.  Happens once in a while on the ships if a mess is down for maintenance (tiling etc) and aside from some jokes about finally getting canapes and martinis or the good desserts, never any issues.

Funnily enough, was in St. Jean at the Mega waiting for basic when they decided to merge the officer cadets and recruits messes into one bar about eight years ago now.  There was a little bit of chest poking but nothing serious that couldn't be sorted out by more sober friends stepping in; but the number of folks caught fraternizing skyrocketed.  Is that still a thing? 

 

[Jarnhamar]

I prefer a common eating place, it's nice to interact socially with other ranks.  The SNCO/Officer sectioned off eating area in Petawawa irks until I hear the conversations going on in the main area- at which point I get up and go sit on my own by the windows.

 

[Old EO Tech]

Gagetown, Trenton and Kingston merged their dining messes years ago; no segregated seating ... no issues.

Borden merged the Sgt & WOs into the Officer's Dining Hall in 2009 while I was there on my year long french course; no segregation & no issues.

We save the really good chatter for the drinking messes which are still separate else there may be issues.

I agree I eat at the combined mess in Borden, and other than laughing a bit at the young CIC officers on the weekend, no harm was ever done :-/

Jon

 

[Navy_Pete]

Spent a bit of time in the UK training with the RN. When you walked into the wardroom for meals, one of the servers would show you to a table.  They generally segregated the Canadians , Kiwis and the REME students from all the RN guys aside from a few of their version of CFRs and some less sensitive folks.  Apparently there had previously been complaints, so it was their SOP.

Oddly enough, looking at the page three girls in the newspapers at breakfast was fine, but having milk outside of breakfast was frowned upon.

So even in the same mess, it was segregated, it was too bad.  Didn't get to know some of them as a result until our course was almost done, and it turns out a lot of them were pretty decent people.

Not sure that I have a point, other then sharing meals seems like a good way to get past preconceived notions (ie all Canadians are 'boorish colonials' and all RN officers are stuck up...) and get to know people better.  Like you said, you always have the option of picking up your stuff and moving if you want, or sitting with your own group.

 

[armyvern]

I prefer a common eating place, it's nice to interact socially with other ranks.  The SNCO/Officer sectioned off eating area in Petawawa irks until I hear the conversations going on in the main area- at which point I get up and go sit on my own by the windows.

Was there on my LSO course last year and didn't even realize there was a "Snr NCO / Officer" segregated area.  Ate every meal in the hall with people I knew from asstd tours, courses etc ... only to get shit on the second last day for being in the "main" hall.  I stayed where I was and ate in the main area with course-mates the last day too.  'Tis silly rule.

Segregation is also why we avoided the drinking mess like the plaque while on course:  2 X Majors, 1 X Capt, 2 X MWOs, 1 X WO and 1 X Corporal.  Instead all the bars within the surrounding area got our business and we "played" together.

 

[cupper]

When I was working at the CE section and living in at Cornwallis in the early 90's just before the shut the base down, they merged the all of the eating messes together at Champlain Hall. Officers and Snr. NCO's were partitioned off, and had their own serving staff.

The drinking messes were still separate. At that time I was basically the only one living in the Officer's quarters, so had my own personal bartender for most weekday evenings.

Ironically, after the base closed and was turned over to the local development authority, the Pearson Center offered lunch for anyone working in the business park for a reasonable price.