Segregation in Messes

[Edward Campbell]

We went one worse in 1PPCLI (on the other side of the Base): we used soldiers from the duty company to butter toast and serve coffee at coffee break each day. (Just like we used to use them to serve at the table during mess dinners, and before that as bartenders).
At the time I didn't think much of it, but in retrospect I think it was really legacy behaviour left over from a bygone time and an outdated view of what soldiers are for.

In the "good old days," which weren't all that good at all, by the way, units were established with soldiers, infantry soldiers, engineer soldiers, signals soldiers and RCEME soldiers, as applicable, to be mess managers, bartenders and so on. Officers had batmen, also all legal and proper and on the establishment, until about 1970 - I know for a fact that the CO's batman remained on at least one unit's establishment until at least 1981. Officers' batmen were tasked, by the officers' mess sergeant and with the CO's approval, on a roster basis, to help out at coffee break and lunch time. It was, as pbi pointed out, a different time, and social and military customs were different. Some soldiers liked being batmen, it was a "jammy go," in their view; others didn't. My last batman was there because he was an exceptional NCO who needed two years of "light[er] (than normal) duties" to give him time to recover from a serious injury. He was the best batman I ever had but he was not a "natural" choice - he was there, and both he and I knew it, because "hiding" him for a bit was, in our collective judgement, in the best interests of the Army. (He retired, by the way, as a very, very senior NCO.)

So these customs were fairly natural extensions of was established practice. Circa 1980, with the full approval of the base commander, PMCs, mess managers and the dining room staffs, I approved the augmenting of  the dining room staff with soldiers to serve at dinner nights in both the officers' and sergeants' messes. The soldiers were paid at the same rate as casual dining room staff, and I think most of them appreciated the chance to earn some extra income.

 

[ModlrMike]

So these customs were fairly natural extensions of was established practice. Circa 1980, with the full approval of the base commander, PMCs, mess managers and the dining room staffs, I approved the augmenting of  the dining room staff with soldiers to serve at dinner nights in both the officers' and sergeants' messes. The soldiers were paid at the same rate as casual dining room staff, and I think most of them appreciated the chance to earn some extra income.

Not really feasible today as the UNDE would raise stink.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Not really feasible today as the UNDE would raise stink.

Indeed they would, and I wouldn't blame them. We, the big, BIG WE, the Canadian people, consented to a unionized public service back in the mid '60s. (The federal Public Service Staff Relations Act was passed into law in 1967.) We consented to unions and now we, all, must live with all the baggage that collective bargaining and "union rules" bring with them.

 

[Rifleman62]

ERC:

....needed two years of "light[er] (than normal) duties" to give him time to recover from a (serious) injury.

......because "hiding" him for a bit was, in our collective judgement, in the best interests of the Army.

My long understanding that this was the practice in the Reg F Army. Another method of looking after soldiers.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

What's always irked me is that even in the same dining area, the Officers/SNCO side of the house has nicer chairs and stuff. If we're going to eat in different locations, no problem, but if we're going to share the same room, then the divider and better furniture has got to go. I always feel like a schmuck sitting on the Officer/SNCO side with the better chairs.

I personally have no problems eating in the same room, or at the same table, as anybody else. For my unit, however, I'm glad the officers have their own drinking mess.

Where do the WO's eat? 

Although it may be common in this day and age, it is still incorrect to refer to CWOs, MWOs and WOs as "Snr NCOs".  Only Sgt's and PO2's are Snr NCOs.

 

[Edward Campbell]

ERC:

My long understanding that this was the practice in the Reg F Army. Another method of looking after soldiers.

It was; sometimes, as in the case I mentioned, we did it because it was in the best interests of the Army, but we also "hid" too many of the sick, lame and halt, chronic alcoholics and the just plain stupid because they had, perhaps, done one really "good" thing in their careers* or because they had "always" been here. More restrictive establishments make it much, much harder and, on balance, the new rules are probably better than the old ones. But I "knew" the old rules and I knew how to make them works, so ...  :nod:

_____
* I well recall one fellow - who had, indeed, been brave as hell once but who was, in pretty well every respect, a lousy soldier - who we kept on, and tried to keep out of trouble, for far too long. I doubt we would even try today, but in the 1960s I guess it seemed like a good idea to those who had enough rank to make those sorts of decisions.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Where do the WO's eat?

WOs don't eat, they sustain themselves on the life force of those they intimidate.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

WOs don't eat, they sustain themselves on the life force of those they intimidate.

I'm sure they all will like that reply.  ^-^

 

[Michael OLeary]

I'm sure they all will like that reply.  ^-^

It's better than going down the WO =/= Sr NCO discussion again.

I'm sure there's a thread dedicated to it you can direct people to.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

What's that saying...

"Never Pass A Fault"

 

[Michael OLeary]

What's that saying...

"Never Pass A Fault"

I've heard that. There's also one about correcting people in private.

 

[Gunner98]

I think the need for separate dining facilities died long ago. If the officers and senior NCOs can't handle eating with the men and women they lead what right do they have to lead them?  We aren't the British army of the Zulu wars, and we aren't the RN of Nelson's time. We are all professionals who signed up to do a job, some jobs require we wear shiny gold bars (or pips and crowns now) and some jobs require a few hooks on our sleeves.

It is not always about leading them, it is about having willing followers.  I am not sure the Navy folks would agree with your assessment, I know I don't.  I am not sure the junior folks enjoy having their bosses at their tables to listen to the meal time conversation and I know that the Captains of HMCS still enjoy the privacy of the Captain's table.  I still believe that familiarity breeds content.  It can be hard to be disciplined by someone and then break bread with them soon after.

 

[Furniture]

It is not always about leading them, it is about having willing followers.  I am not sure the Navy folks would agree with your assessment, I know I don't.  I am not sure the junior folks enjoy having their bosses at their tables to listen to the meal time conversation and I know that the Captains of HMCS still enjoy the privacy of the Captain's table.  I still believe that familiarity breeds content.  It can be hard to be disciplined by someone and then break bread with them soon after.

I can't argue that sometimes eating at the same table as the one who just jacked you up an hour ago is a bit uncomfortable. In reality though is there a difference between a CWO jacking a Sgt and then having lunch in the same mess, and a Sgt jacking a Cpl and then eating in the same mess? In my personal experience there was no noticeable difference in the discomfort felt at the table.

I think todays NCMs and officers can be professional enough to live in a somewhat shared environment and still maintain proper discipline.  :2c:

 

[Lumber]

I think todays NCMs and officers can be professional enough to live in a somewhat shared environment and still maintain proper discipline.  :2c:

Agreed, but then they have to look over their shoulders before they start a sentence with "That damn Lt(N) Bloggins..."

Again, this kind of banter should be left to the drinking messes. Isn't work, religion and politics impolite dinner conversation anyways?

Clearly, given the myriad of examples people have given of Officers and NCMs (both jr. and sr.) eating together, it does work.

So, why the need to wall of the C&PO's at the CFB Esquimalt Wardroom? Is it because it's at the "Wardroom" and not simply a cafeteria or dinning hall?

 

[George Wallace]

I can't argue that sometimes eating at the same table as the one who just jacked you up an hour ago is a bit uncomfortable. In reality though is there a difference between a CWO jacking a Sgt and then having lunch in the same mess, and a Sgt jacking a Cpl and then eating in the same mess? In my personal experience there was no noticeable difference in the discomfort felt at the table.

I think todays NCMs and officers can be professional enough to live in a somewhat shared environment and still maintain proper discipline.  :2c:

Unless it is personal, there should be no such concerns.

If you can 'jack up' your kids at home, and eat at the same table, why would eating at the same table as a colleague at work be any different?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Unless it is personal, there should be no such concerns.

If you can 'jack up' your kids at home, and eat at the same table, why would eating at the same table as a colleague at work be any different?

I understand what you're saying but personally I think there is a significant difference between a parent disciplining a child and a supervisor/leader disciplining one of their soldiers.

It can also be a hard pill to swallow when one's supervisor disciplines them for say immature/inappropriate behavior then sits down with their peers and laughs about something stupid immature or inappropriate they themselves did. 
I used to get up and switch tables because of a situation like this.

 

[George Wallace]

I understand what you're saying but personally I think there is a significant difference between a parent disciplining a child and a supervisor/leader disciplining one of their soldiers.

It can also be a hard pill to swallow when one's supervisor disciplines them for say immature/inappropriate behavior then sits down with their peers and laughs about something stupid immature or inappropriate they themselves did. 
I used to get up and switch tables because of a situation like this.

Combat Arms camaraderie develops that 'family'.  Jacking up a person should not be a personal thing.  If you take it personal then you should not be here; whether you are getting the jacking up or dealing it out.  The Combat Arms also have a very dark sense of humour, and should know the time and place for it.  One must maintain a sense of humour in any aspect of life, and again, know when and where it may be appropriate to use it. 

Perhaps I am wrong, but I take it from your post, that you are easily offended.  I am not sure then, that you made the right career choices if you can't deal with some of the aspects of military life.  The Liberals wanted a "Kinder, Gentler Army" and PC has crept into the military as everywhere else in our society.  The military, unlike other parts of our society, is in the business of killing people, and training to ensure our members are capable of doing so.  Some aspects of the military are quite foreign to other Canadians, and may seem insensitive to an outsider when they are in fact a defence mechanism or black humour.  I am sure that you will find the same characteristics in members of Police, Fire and other Emergency Services, who have the difficult task of facing the possibility of death every day.  If you can't, and need to 'run away' every time something offends you, another calling may be in order. 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I think an important component of a jacking is the tone you use.  I have been jacked up plenty of times by my OC's for stupid shit I did.  It's how you respond to that jacking that makes you a professional.  I remember getting called into my Coy Comd's office and getting a strip torn off me for some dumb shit I did, later on at the mess we had a beer and laughed about it and all my buddies also had a go poking fun at me  ;D

If you can't handle a little criticism then you have no business wearing the red sash or possessing a commission, my  :2c:

On the other hand, a lot of people watch too many movies and think every jacking has to be like something straight out of Full Metal Jacket, this itself is very unprofessional and I have been guilty of this but as you get more experience you will find their are better methods of getting what you want from someone.

 

[Scott]

If you can't handle a little criticism then you have no business wearing the red sash or possessing a commission in the working world

FTFY

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

FTFY

haha touche!