Ribbons

[armyvern]

Would many units even notice a no hook private giving himself a hook and wearing it?

I would think so.

During work-ups to deploy, we had an augmentee go home on Christmas Leave and come back wearing the new rank. When asked, he said that he had been presented it at his Men's Christmas Dinner (Yes, that's what I call it - kittens are dying right now). Verified - of course (this shit does not just "appear" on people out of the blue without paperwork having to occur). Busted.

And he was an augmentee; I'd wager that CSMs are even more familiar with their full-time, permanent staff.

 

[armyvern]

Agreed, but he doesn't say that.  He said that HE told the member to simply put up the new ribbon based on the MPRR.  At no point has the OP said that he's even mentioned it to the CO.

Nor does he say that it isn't done does he Pusser?

Keep digging.

He's the freaking RSM; not a cyberspace RSM quoting "without lawful authority" regulations when his CO is the signer of the lawful authority docs.

His troop; his CO; his Unit. Funny how you allegedly know it better than he does.

 

[jollyjacktar]

"Managers do things right.

Leaders do the right thing"

"Zing!!"

 

[aesop081]

You're avoiding the question. 

Wasn't trying to answer it. In fact, i was not even responding to a question.

 

[Pusser]

Nor does he say that it isn't done does he Pusser?

Keep digging.

He's the freaking RSM; not a cyberspace RSM quoting "without lawful authority" regulations when his CO is the signer of the lawful authority docs.

His troop; his CO; his Unit. Funny how you allegedly know it better than he does.

No, he doesn't say he didn't discuss it with his CO, but he does say he's in the NCR and knowing how things work in the NCR...

There are no RSMs in the NCR.  There is the CFSU(O) Chief, but I don't think he's involved in this, nor do I suspect that the CFSU(O) Cmdt (who is the CO for all NDHQ pers) is involved either.  I could be wrong, but I still think something's amiss.  The sad part is that it doesn't need to be.

You have conceded that a private should not be promoting himself and putting up a chevron without proper authority, despite being fully qualified.  So how can you then accept the wearing of a national honour based solely on a forecast (which is not a definitive statement of entitlement) in a document that is infamous for being inaccurate?  Is it not virtually the same?  So far, all the OP has said he's done is consult an MPRR.  I would argue that this is insufficient.  If he's done more, then let him say so.

 

[dapaterson]

There are no RSMs in the NCR. There is the CFSU(O) Chief, but I don't think he's involved in this, nor do I suspect that the CFSU(O) Cmdt (who is the CO for all NDHQ pers) is involved either.  I could be wrong, but I still think something's amiss.  The sad part is that it doesn't need to be.

The GGFG has no RSM?  The CH of O has no RSM?  30 Fd Regt (RCA) has no RSM?  The R de Hull has no RSM?  There are no units of the Canadian Forces in the NCR?


Wow.  Lots of people I have to tell that they and their positions don't exist.

 

[aesop081]

There are no RSMs in the NCR. 

You want to reconsider that statement ? There's a whole world outside of NDHQ you may not be aware of. Time to step outside the cube farm.

the CFSU(O) Cmdt (who is the CO for all NDHQ pers)

You know there are units in the NCR other than NDHQ ? I am in the NCR, do not belong to NDHQ and the CFSU(O) Cmdt is not in my CoC at all.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

The GGFG has no RSM?  The CH of O has no RSM?  30 Fd Regt (RCA) has no RSM?  The R de Hull has no RSM?  There are no units of the Canadian Forces in the NCR?


Wow.  Lots of people I have to tell that they and their positions don't exist.

Don't forget 33 CER......

 

[armyvern]

...

You have conceded that a private should not be promoting himself and putting up a chevron without proper authority, despite being fully qualified.  So how can you then accept the wearing of a national honour based solely on a forecast (which is not a definitive statement of entitlement) in a document that is infamous for being inaccurate?  Is it not virtually the same?  So far, all the OP has said he's done is consult an MPRR.  I would argue that this is insufficient.  If he's done more, then let him say so.

Concede this Pusser:

The Pte has NO f'ng idea or knowledge as to whether his CO has signed off and authorized that promotion or not does he? Oh, and being that one of the pre-reqs for promotion is "Recommendation of the CO" ... the Pte could never state that "I Know I meet all the pre-reqs", so I'll just give it to myself (as you are suggesting is the situation in your quote above).

See the difference yet? The RSM is damn well aware though.

Not so the RSM, Div CWO, Section CWO, Directorate CWO etc (I'll list a whole bunch of CWO positional names off for you, as the RCN and RCAF do not have any "RSMs" either  : ) But you are well aware of that factoid and are well aware that CWO's have their COs ear --- whatever their position happens to be named in the location of their posting. It sure is not the CFSU(O) CWO signing off on their paperwork.

You really need to get over your air of self-superiority and pusserness in all areas of regulation and properness; sometimes, your need to be right is just wrong ... as is your belief in how you are the one who knows how everything, and I do mean everything, should operate/occur.

 

[LineJumper]

Today must be my day, as I have nothing to contribute to ribbons, just a minor recolection of 'the hook'.

When I was provided my 'hook'(sounds kinda navy) I was jacked on a Force COC practice parade for not having it sewn on.(approx 5 months after the fact) 'It will be there after lunch' I was told. Back to The regimental lines(L103 if memory serves) to do the task (velcro nametags would have saved all kinds of time then, oh yeah, slip-ons on a smock would've been nice as well). For all my lunch break, it was fingers and thumbs'a'fury sewing on 'the hook'. The next practice I was promoted.

At the beercall, I asked the RSM what would have happened if I didn't sew on the Tpr's rank. "You would be a Cpl on appointment." says he. "I don't understand Sir." "In 2 years, like everyone else in the CF, you would be appointed to the rank of Cpl due to time in. To this day except for pay, which still wasn't good yet at that time, I've not quite understood the difference between a Pte with or without anything. I did learn that a Cpl does throw an assist for the old potato peeling done on KP  >

 

[RCR Grunt]

Would many units even notice a no hook private giving himself a hook and wearing it?

My promotion to private with a hook...

Me: CQ, do you have any blank slip on's for my rain jacket?
CQ: How effing long have you been here?!
Me: I dunno CQ, bout a year and a half I guess.
CQ: Here's one with a hook, now get the eff out of my stores!!!

I'm quite certain the RSM had no knowledge of this, nor was the proper pro forma filled and filed.

 

[Good2Golf]

Pusser, the only thing similar about the two different situations you have described is that the CO has failed in both cases to ensure that their soldiers, sailors or airmen and airwomen are appropriately acknowledged for their service and/or qualification either through decoration or promotion.

If I were to play your game of "there's a limit to how far we should go to do the right thing," I would look at the young private's initiative and balance that with the missing factor of my recommendation, as ArmyVern pointed out, and have a chat with the SCWO to determine what our best course of action was; likely something like the SCWO having a chat with them to take down the "not yet authorized rank insignia", but noting that the boss appreciates the initiative demonstrated and hope that such initiative can continue in other areas to better the unit as a whole.

The point remains that a Canadian Decoration is something that is supposed to be a demonstration of the organization's appreciation of the individual's cumulative good service to the Nation, and if some ribbon and a few rosettes acquired from clothing stores presented to the member by the CO on or very close to the qualifying date keeps the faith of member recognition, even if not "100% by the book" then I'm okay with being a part of that.

BZ to the folks a bit earlier in the thread who did just that. 

Regards
G2G

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Stop right here!

We didn't start talking about promotion to anything.

Let's stick with the OP's original subject, that of the presentation of CD honours.

No more talk of one hook Privates promoting themselves.

Pusser,

Deny, complain, quote regs, do whatever. You have been outnumbered by your peers.

Time to call it a day and give it up.

Rules and regs have their place. We get to our (and your) station by knowing when and where to accept them, bend them, or ignore them. For the betterment of the troop or organization.

Knowing when to work outside, or bending those rules, how to do it, and keep everyone happy is what we do. Keeping our CO advised and accepting tacit approval is all part of our job.

I would really like to see this end here and now. This is about as polite a request as will be made.

Be stubborn as you wish, but most of your peers here disagree with your point of view.

And yes, most in disagreement, are your peers.

 

[Pusser]

The GGFG has no RSM?  The CH of O has no RSM?  30 Fd Regt (RCA) has no RSM?  The R de Hull has no RSM?  There are no units of the Canadian Forces in the NCR?


Wow.  Lots of people I have to tell that they and their positions don't exist.

Most people who belong to units outside of NDHQ, despite being in the Ottawa/Gatineau area, do not refer to themselves as being "in the NCR."  I'll surrender on this point.  I meant NDHQ.  Sorry for the lack of clarity.

On another note, perhaps the following CANFORGEN will settle this:

CANFORGEN 003/09 CMP 002/09 081950Z JAN 09
APPLICATION FOR SERVICE/CAMPAIGN MEDALS
UNCLASSIFIED
REF: A. CANFORGEN 106/00 ADMHRMIL 064 081930Z SEP 00
B. CANFORGEN 080/02 ADMHRMIL 045 221800Z JUL 02
C. CDS LETTER APPLICATION FOR AND PRESENTATION OF SERVICE/CAMPAIGN MEDALS DATED 3 DEC 08
1. THE PURPOSE OF THIS MSG IS TO ADVISE ALL CF UNITS, AS DIRECTED BY THE CDS AT REF C, THAT EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, SERVICE AND CAMPAIGN MEDALS, AS WELL AS THE CD, ARE NOT TO BE ORDERED UNTIL CANDIDATE HAS FULLY MET THE MEDAL S ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA. THE CO S SIGNATURE ON THE APPLICATION CONFIRMS THE FILE HAS BEEN VERIFIED AND THE CRITERIA IS FULLY MET
2. UNITS THAT ORDER ANY MEDALS BEFORE THE MEMBER HAS MET THE ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA WILL SEE THEIR APPLICATIONS REJECTED AND RETURNED TO THE ORIGINATING UNIT
3. MEDALS SHALL ALWAYS BE PRESENTED IN DIGNIFIED CIRCUMSTANCES. IN THE CASE OF WOUNDED MEMBERS, THE PRESENTATION SHOULD NOT OCCUR IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE INCIDENT BUT RATHER WHEN THE MEMBER IS SUFFICIENTLY STABLE, BOTH EMOTIONALLY AND PHYSICALLY, TO RECEIVE THE AWARD. THE PROPER TIME WOULD BE AT THE HOME UNIT WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS, OR IN THE CASE OF EXTENDED HOSPITALIZATION, ONCE THE MEMBER S CONDITION HAS STABILIZED
4. CF MEMBERS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO WEAR UNDRESS RIBBONS FOR SERVICE OR CAMPAIGN MEDALS AND THE CD UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN PRESENTED WITH THE ACTUAL MEDAL. THE WEARING OF UNDRESS RIBBON AND MINIATURE AS WELL AS THE USE OF POSTNOMINALS IS AUTHORIZED FOR ORDERS AND DECORATIONS (MSM AND ABOVE) FROM THE MOMENT THE RECIPIENT IS OFFICIALLY NOTIFIED
5. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY REF A, PARA H AND I AND REF B ARE CANCELLED. ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA FOR ALL ORDERS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS CAN BE FOUND ON THE DH R DIN WEBSITE HTTP://HR.OTTAWA-HULL.MIL.CA/DHR-DDHR/
6. OPI IS DH R
7. SIGNED BY MGEN W SEMIANIW, CMP

 

[armyvern]

Right.

So, the CO has authorized it (as per your first yellow); then
The RSM (or CWO depending upon posting location) goes to clothing and picks up a ribbon with the rosettes; and
The CO then issues them to the member (as per your second yellow).

THE WEARING OF UNDRESS RIBBON AND MINIATURE AS WELL AS THE USE OF POSTNOMINALS IS AUTHORIZED FOR ORDERS AND DECORATIONS (MSM AND ABOVE) FROM THE MOMENT THE RECIPIENT IS OFFICIALLY NOTIFIED

For the CD+3, I'm guessing that the DHH tracking system shows it being officially issued in the status (I know it does actually). So, if it's not received in time for presentation, the member is still officially notified via that system that it is indeed issued (note: not the member himself, but the OR who  is tracking on behalf of RSM on behalf of CO). Therefore, notification has been made as has the confirmatiobn that it has been issued by DHH. Issued, yet not yet received.

 

[ModlrMike]

Do we really need to pick the fly**** out of the pepper when the question is about recognizing 42 years of service? 75 messages in a thread that could probably have been settled in 3. Sheesh  :facepalm:

 

[Occam]

THE WEARING OF UNDRESS RIBBON AND MINIATURE AS WELL AS THE USE OF POSTNOMINALS IS AUTHORIZED FOR ORDERS AND DECORATIONS (MSM AND ABOVE) FROM THE MOMENT THE RECIPIENT IS OFFICIALLY NOTIFIED

I think the part in red limits the applicability of this statement.

 

[Journeyman]

CANFORGEN 003/09 CMP 002/09 081950Z JAN 09

We'd already agreed on "officious," "pedantic," and the fact that you're never likely to be "that CO," right?

So yes, your butt is covered; in similar circumstances you could wave the CANFORGEN and point to the CFAO saying your hands are tied. Happy?

:



Thankfully, the original poster is doing what's right for the 42-year veteran, despite the heartache and angst this apparently causes the chair-warmers.


Pusser, feel free to have the last word, coming back with some pithy "oh.....oh ya?!"  I'm done.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

OK folks,....the urinals are overflowing and I don't feel like mopping today.

Lets keep it civil.................or I will.

Bruce
army.ca staff

 

[Good2Golf]

Not sure how others might interpret CANFORGEN 003/09, but here is how I would look at the original topic situation using the following portion of the CANFORGEN:

...
4.  CF MEMBERS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO WEAR UNDRESS RIBBONS FOR SERVICE OR CAMPAIGN MEDALS AND THE CD UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN PRESENTED WITH THE ACTUAL MEDAL. THE WEARING OF UNDRESS RIBBON AND MINIATURE AS WELL AS THE USE OF POSTNOMINALS IS AUTHORIZED FOR ORDERS AND DECORATIONS (MSM AND ABOVE) FROM THE MOMENT THE RECIPIENT IS OFFICIALLY NOTIFIED
...

The member in question was already issued his MEDAL thirty years prior...on completion of the twelth year of qualifying service. 

So, I read paragraph 4. and I see no restriction that would keep me from presenting the member with a DEVICE to the medal which he had already been issued in years past.  I signed the paperwork noting the member's qualification, and if DHR has not yet provided me with the formal material, I still present (with the help of my SCWO who tracked down some rosettes, a bar and some ribbon) the member with the devices representing the 42 years of qualifying service that the CANFORGEN in no way restricts me from doing.

IMO, that's how leadership should interpret, and in this case follow to the letter, the policies and directives that were intended to ensure that a member's service is appropriately acknowledged.


Regards
G2G


edit: correction for grammar