Ribbons

[caocao]

Just to clarify, by CD 3 i meant 42 years of service.  The member will be eligible on the 30 Apr and i have told him that he could wear the ribbon at that time.  When/if the box shows up before he retires it will be presented at one of our quarterly H&A ceremony.

 

[Danjanou]

Heck, there are still hundreds of 125 Medals sitting in drawers of Members of Parliament that are past their expiry date......

Can we hand them out to those that didn't get a QDJM? >

 

[medicineman]

Can we hand them out to those that didn't get a QDJM? >

The problem there might be that you'd have to come up with a bar for the Can125, as alot of the folks getting the QDJM might already have it...

MM

 

[2 Cdo]

Talking about late awards, I was due my CD in 97 and received it in 2002. 

But when I was due my first bar I was presented it within days of my eligibility.

 

[Journeyman]

I suspect that someone would have to have some mighty cajones to jack-up a guy with 42 years in, on retirement, because the paperwork is not yet through for his latest CD bar/rosette. Just do it.



But in the past I may have, on occasion, contravened the odd CFAO......to say nothing of legal statutes, common sense, and possibly even some laws of physics.  :nod:

 

[NSDreamer]

:goodpost:

 

[dapaterson]

But in the past I may have, on occasion, contravened the odd-numbered CFAOs and the even-numbered CFAOs......to say nothing of legal statutes, common sense, and possibly even some laws of physics.  :nod:

FTFY.

 

[Pusser]

When a decoration is gazetted, the member is authorized to wear the undress ribbon. The CD and campaign awards are not gazetted. IMHO the practice is the same. Criteria met, wear the undress ribbon (the very few times anyone wears undress ribbons).

Option: See the base tailor. She will make up a ribbon and sew two rosettes on it. Someone has a CD box around. Additionally you can get the CD ribbon with two rosettes and slide in on the members medal bar (most likely the last ribbon on the bar) during or after the presentation.

We make life to difficult; we should be commonsensical.  Administrative Masturbation. We beat ourselves to death with paperwork.

Actually, individuals are often entitled to wear the undress ribbon long before a decoration is gazetted.  Gazetting is simply the official government announcement, not the actual conferment of the award.  The actual conferment is often the Instrument (signed by the GG for those decorations that require it).  In the case of the CD, there is no Instrument (I correct my earlier statement somewhat).  HOWEVER, the member's CO still has to confirm honourable service to DH&R before the award is made.  Simply going to the Base Tailor to have a new ribbon made up with a second rosette would be inappropriate.  It may even be in violation of Sect 419 of the Criminal Code:

419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,...

(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,...

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

You can call me officious and pedantic all you like, but if I was the CO in question, I would be very uneasy about doing as you suggest.  I would be calling DH&R and greasing the skids to make sure everything was done properly and as quickly as possible, rather than simply ignoring the "administrative masturbation."  Common sense is a wonderful thing and we would have a lot less bureacracy in this outfit if folks could actually be trusted to use it occasionally.  Most rules exist because someone failed to use common sense in the past and so we now need a rule to force it.

 

[Journeyman]

You can call me officious and pedantic all you like, but if I was the CO in question, I would be very uneasy about doing as you suggest.

You are officious and pedantic.

"Know your men and promote their well-being," and "seek out and accept responsibility," are not mere clichés, even though they're not likely to be found in CFAOs.

Getting this guy the CD bar for his retirement parade is the right thing to do.

That 42 years of service could be addressed by someone shrugging, saying, "I tried to hurry up DHH; it was the CFAOs that screwed him over, not me...but ~whew~  my butt is covered," makes me hope that such a person would never be 'the CO in question,' for the sake of the subordinates.



Mind you, that fact that all this hand-wringing is being bandied about on an internet forum by someone whose profile claims he's a CWO, also leaves me to wonder what happened to old-school CWOs.

 

[Pusser]

You are officious and pedantic.

"Know your men and promote their well-being," and "seek out and accept responsibility," are not mere clichés, even though they're not likely to be found in CFAOs.

Getting this guy the CD bar for his retirement parade is the right thing to do.

That 42 years of service could be addressed by someone shrugging, saying, "I tried to hurry up DHH; it was the CFAOs that screwed him over, not me...but ~whew~  my butt is covered," makes me hope that such a person would never be 'the CO in question,' for the sake of the subordinates.



Mind you, that fact that all this hand-wringing is being bandied about on an internet forum by someone whose profile claims he's a CWO, also leaves me to wonder what happened to old-school CWOs.

I'm not saying don't do it.  Nor do I accept the argument that it's acceptable to blame a lack of action on the regulations.  I'm saying, do it properly and force the system to work.  This way, you don't create messes that need to be cleaned up later (with much embarrassment all around - especially for the person we're trying to honour.  Backdoor solutions often backfire.  From what I can gather from the original question, there is still plenty of time to do it right.  A phone call to the right desk can often do wonders.  On that note, you would wait a long time to get DHH (Directorate of History and Heritage) to deal with this as they have nothing to do with it.  It is the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DH&R) that handles this.  They are a separate organization and have been for several years now.  Oops, there goes that pedantry again...

Why is there never time to do things right, but always time to do them over?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Mind you, that fact that all this hand-wringing is being bandied about on an internet forum by someone whose profile claims he's a CWO, also leaves me to wonder what happened to old-school CWOs.

Last situation I saw like this, the 'person' made up his ribbon and two rosettes, put it into the CD box he had on hand, gave it to the RSM, the RSM to the CO.

The CO came out and presented it.

Yes, it is overdue, for no other reason than 'paperwork kerfuffles'. Still waiting on the official one, 3\4 of a year late so far, but was indented for last June......or not, depending on which person in the OR you speak to.

So, to answer your question Journeyman, there is some of us still around that know how to cut through clag

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm not saying don't do it.  Nor do I accept the argument that it's acceptable to blame a lack of action on the regulations.  I'm saying, do it properly and force the system to work.  This way, you don't create messes that need to be cleaned up later (with much embarrassment all around - especially for the person we're trying to honour.  Backdoor solutions often backfire.  From what I can gather from the original question, there is still plenty of time to do it right.  A phone call to the right desk can often do wonders.  On that note, you would wait a long time to get DHH (Directorate of History and Heritage) to deal with this as they have nothing to do with it.  It is the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DH&R) that handles this.  They are a separate organization and have been for several years now.  Oops, there goes that pedantry again...

Why is there never time to do things right, but always time to do them over?

It's a CD rosette, not a Victoria Cross.  :facepalm:

 

[Danjanou]

Mind you, that fact that all this hand-wringing is being bandied about on an internet forum by someone whose profile claims he's a CWO, also leaves me to wonder what happened to old-school CWOs.

Not sure about others but some of us are herding cats with Alzheimer's down at the local Legion hall and bemoaning what happened to our beloved army ( or navy or airforce)

It's a CD rosette, not a Victoria Cross.  :facepalm:

And can you imagine the goat rodeo involved if it were with some of the players involved here.

 

[Pusser]

It's a CD rosette, not a Victoria Cross.  :facepalm:

Has anyone considered that the individual might feel slighted because someone only had the forethought to go to Clothing Stores?

Be it a bar to the CD or a VC, they're both honours from the Crown and should be treated with respect.  Anything worth doing is worth doing properly.  I still argue that there is sufficient time and that a band-aid solution is neither required nor appropriate. 

I'm not against band-aid solutions, when necessary, but you better be pretty darn sure they're necessary before I sign on.  I'm not a big fan of cleaning up messes because others didn't do their jobs properly.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Has anyone considered that the individual might feel slighted because someone only had the forethought to go to Clothing Stores?

Be it a bar to the CD or a VC, they're both honours from the Crown and should be treated with respect.  Anything worth doing is worth doing properly.  I still argue that there is sufficient time and that a band-aid solution is neither required nor appropriate. 

I'm not against band-aid solutions, when necessary, but you better be pretty darn sure they're necessary before I sign on.  I'm not a big fan of cleaning up messes because others didn't do their jobs properly.

I'll guarantee the individual wasn't feeling slighted then, when the CO presented it, or now.

Got important stuff to go do now.

 

[dogger1936]

At the JPSU in Gagetown you get your CD sent by mail. Many warm wonderful feelings from our injured guys there getting a medal presented by Canada post.

 

[armyvern]

Has anyone considered that the individual might feel slighted because someone only had the forethought to go to Clothing Stores?

Be it a bar to the CD or a VC, they're both honours from the Crown and should be treated with respect.  Anything worth doing is worth doing properly.  I still argue that there is sufficient time and that a band-aid solution is neither required nor appropriate. 

I'm not against band-aid solutions, when necessary, but you better be pretty darn sure they're necessary before I sign on.  I'm not a big fan of cleaning up messes because others didn't do their jobs properly.

42 years of service!! Word up from a CSM point of view: a Member of the CF should also be treated with respect ... I'd even say that, after 42 years of service, the system should go out of it's way to be respectful to that member and get their process' in line to ensure that this member is recognized on time. Period.

Yep, anything worth doing is worth doing properly (that properness also includes "efficiently and effectively"). So when the system seems to be incapable of pulling that "proper" thing off in all it's glory in an effective and efficient manner that respects the dignity of the member, then let the RSM and CO do what they need to do to ensure that happens themselves. If going to clothing and having a rosette mounted onto a ribbon bar preserves that respectfulness of the member and his service --- so be it and AWESOME on them. I`d back them up every single time.

 

[jollyjacktar]

At the JPSU in Gagetown you get your CD sent by mail. Many warm wonderful feelings from our injured guys there getting a medal presented by Canada post.

I was slid my CD1 across the dutch door top as a favour by the Swain, and just had to sign for it.  The other one which was my GCS I had to dog and pony for as it was fairly rare in the Fleet at the time.  Frankly I was very pleased with the sign and go.  They could mail my next coming medal to me too and I would be very happy with that.  I hate being the centre of attention, even when it's not because I'm in shyte.

 

[medicineman]

I hate being the centre of attention, even when it's not because I'm in shyte.

Most normal folks don't...however, the military does like to ensure that things we take for granted, like people sticking around for a long time, doing their job and doing it (hopefully) well, are recognized.  And as the decoration is from the Sovereign via the Government of Canada, a suitable presentation is actually expected to be made - they're showing you appreciation for what you've done on their behalf...and at the same time, your unit should do you the same common courtesy on the government's behalf.  It's also a way of showing the young'ens what they get for doing good work and hopefully someone to emulate.  Getting a medal in the mail is complete BS as far as I'm concerned - even if it is a CD or bar for it, since you did something to deserve it.  The person getting it deserves to get it on time as well - kind of takes the whole "we appreciate what you've done and are looking out for you" out of it when you get your rosette at the same time you get the original medal.  I think someone else mentioned it earlier - it's just plain, good old fashioned leadership.

:2c:

MM

 

[jollyjacktar]

I hear what you're saying and can appreciate the need on behalf of the machine to do the right thing by the member.  Most folks appreciate the recognition of a job well done and the spirit in which it's made too.  After all that's why Depart with Dignity came about.  I'm just not one of those individuals who needs or thrives on the recognition.  Rather the opposite for me, my time of departure is in sight or at least I can hear the footsteps down the hall.  I have made it crystal clear that when the last day comes, I walk out the door at the end of the day without a DWD fuss or beer call etc.  I'm not bitter, don't get me wrong but I don't wish to receive the letters of thanks from all and sundry or have a shadow box with the ensign in.  I think I'm more of the Macarthur vein "old soldiers sailors never die they just fade away".