Naval Officers Once Again to Wear the Executive Curl

[Pusser]

I've never understood how sailors all seem to understand the CF rank structure and anytime they call a sergeant "PO" it is a slip of the tongue, not because they don't know the difference.  Unfortunately, I can't say the same for our Army and Air Force brethren, many of whom seem to have difficulty figuring it all out (then there are those who somehow think it's amusing to intentionally mix them up).  Sailors may be better at it simply because we're in the minority and the Army ranks are probably drilled into their heads on basic training.  For us older folks, it may also have something to do with the fact that prior to 1984 (introduction of DEU) although we were allowed to use naval rank titles in speech and internal correspondence, our "official" rank titles were still the CF ones.  For example, you could call me "Leading Seaman," but the flight manifest for my trip to Halifax would say "Corporal."

Nevertheless, is learning separate rank structures really that hard?  I remember working in a NATO headquarters where not only did we learn three different services, we also had 25 countries and a lot of different insignia to deal with!  We managed.

 

[Steel Badger]

Sometimes the Holy Grail of Uniformity takes precedence over everything else.

The old ( Pre unification ) Military managed 3 ranks systems plus a slew of Regimental and Corps titles ...

(Anyone remember when EME wanted to re-introduce "Craftsman" as the title for their trained PTE's?)

 

[OldSolduer]

Sometimes the Holy Grail of Uniformity takes precedence over everything else.

The old ( Pre unification ) Military managed 3 ranks systems plus a slew of Regimental and Corps titles ...

(Anyone remember when EME wanted to re-introduce "Craftsman" as the title for their trained PTE's?)

I remember that.  And Signals wanted to substitute "Signaller" for Pte....which I think they did. Am I wrong?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

This is getting interesting. A long time ago someone ( A reserve Colonel if I remember well, but I cannot recall his name) said that if you pulled a single thread from the cloth of unification, it would unravel itself completely. Are we there yet?

Let me say here also to Pusser, you are my kind of seaman (in the generic sense). I will steam with you any time. Yes, you are correct, even if it displeases E.R. Campbell, anyone in a "non-hard-sea trade" (I hate that terminology) who elects to wear the navy blue for her career is Naval first and forever, then a tradesman. TN2IC got it right: He calls himself soldier first and, even though currently posted to a naval ship or base, I am sure that he wears a green uniform.  He is not and does not have to call himself "navy" and his services are no less appreciated for that.

E.R. Campbell asked " Is the Log branch an important military organization within the CF? And the answer is no. It is a Branch, not an organization at all. While in the army they have a large part of the logistical functions performed by Service battalions, which are "organizations", in the Navy, logistics is a function that is performed in each organization, such as ships, stations and  bases, by highly trained specialists who are Naval first.

Gcclarke's comment, that its "well for MARS, NCSEO and MSEO but not others, makes no sense: It is just as important for army and airforce officers to tell that MARS, NCSEO and MSEO are the same rank or outrank them when they meet them anywhere as it is to tell the "purple" trade ones. Professional knowledge is the key. This is done routinely by just about every other commonwealth nations military personnel such as Australia, New-Zealand, Pakistan, India, to name a few, as they  retained the old British system, where it is also still in use. If the soldiers and airmen of those countries can do it, Canadians can too.

As for Steel Badger's Holy Grail of uniformity taking precedence, there is another way than similitude of rank identifiers: The american have a system of "level" for all their military  that is uniform across the services. An E-5, for instance, will be a Sergeant in the army and Marines, but a Staff sergeant in the airforce and a PO2 in the navy. In their army and marines, a Staff sergeant is an E-6. Nobody gets confused, since it is the actual E, W or O level that dictates your seniority and relative rank.

 

[Snakedoc]

As easy as it may be to learn new rank structures etc., I think if we do add the curl, we should keep the change as basic as possible without altering the rank structure and causing any type of confusion between us and the army/air force.

This would mean the only visual difference in the current ranks would be the addition of the curl, making the SLt's thin bar into a curl.  For flag officers, I think using additional stripes would make sense, keeping in line with other commonwealth countries around the world.  For subordinate officers, I personally wouldn't be opposed to seeing them without the curl until they've obtained a commission.

My personal opinion and  :2c:

 

[Steel Badger]

Ps:  I never chased that particular grail..... I think I am allergic to total unification......


And I like the Technovikings new title of Uber-Staffenfurher... It suits him 

 

[dimsum]

I believe that we should use the ranks already authorised for mess kit.  The only area that would be unclear would be the SLt rank but there is very little difference between an A/SLt and SLt in training, level of responsibility, and prestige (completion of MARS IV as an example).  Many SLt are only in that rank for <1 year as they move through the training system.

Just to clarify; while that may be true for Reg Force MARS officers, Reserve MARS officers have to spend 3 years at the SLt rank (sailing or otherwise) before getting promoted to LT(N).  SLts in the MCDVs are frequently the DeckO or NavO, so there can be a big difference in training and responsibility between A/SLts and SLts. 

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

Just to clarify; while that may be true for Reg Force MARS officers, Reserve MARS officers have to spend 3 years at the SLt rank (sailing or otherwise) before getting promoted to LT(N).  SLts in the MCDVs are frequently the DeckO or NavO, so there can be a big difference in training and responsibility between A/SLts and SLts.

My bad.  Apologies to any reservists that I've offended by my oversight. 

WARNING - TOPIC DIVERGENCE FOLLOWS: 

Your observation about the employment of SLt on the Kingston Class raises the whole issue of the "Hellyer Corporal/Captain" and the rank inflation at the LS/Lt(N) level... 

BACK ON TOPIC: 

Be that as it may, I'm happy with any of the possible solutions already discussed: wearing one stripe (as currently done for mess kit), having the curl on the skinny stripe, or inverting the skinny and thick stripes.  It would be logistically simpler to have the curl on the skinny stripe but I would just be happy to have the curl back.

 

[Sailorwest]

We are one of a very few navies that retain this rank. I think that the RAN rank appears the same for Subbies and Acting and it probably makes sense that we do the same. Or you go with the idea that an unqualified commissioned naval officer does not get an executive curl and resolve the problem for both them and naval cadets.

 

[CountDC]

My biggest pet peeve is seeing folks who are posted to an office (MARPAC/LANT CMS Ottawa) wearing NCD's. They think it makes them look operational, I think it makes them look stupid.

Nope - don't think it makes me look operational, no cap or knife, it happens to be the dress of the day for me. It is also more comfortable, easier and requires less money to maintain.  I have done the DEU's every day and much prefer NCDs on a daily basis.

edit it add:  If the majority of the Officers want it then I am all for bringing back the curl.  Always thought it looked better when navy and army mixed.

 

[Monsoon]

We are one of a very few navies that retain this rank. I think that the RAN rank appears the same for Subbies and Acting and it probably makes sense that we do the same. Or you go with the idea that an unqualified commissioned naval officer does not get an executive curl and resolve the problem for both them and naval cadets.

It's not even a matter of retaining it - A/Slt was never a "rank" in the pre-unification RCN. It was just an acting-lacking promotion to full Sub-Lieutenant; the displayed rank was the same because the actual rank was the same. Hence the convention of not speaking the "acting" part of the rank (but it was written, just as A/MCpl is written but not spoken today). I believe the rank was awarded to people who had completed their trade training but didn't yet have a BWK (back in the days when all naval officers had one), or vice-versa.

Today it's more or less supplanted Midshipman (an untrained officer, i.e.); I'm not really certain what a pre-unification Naval Cadet was. I remember hearing that it was either someone who hadn't yet finished basic training or someone attending service college. Anyone recall?

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

It's not even a matter of retaining it - A/Slt was never a "rank" in the pre-unification RCN. It was just an acting-lacking promotion to full Sub-Lieutenant; the displayed rank was the same because the actual rank was the same. Hence the convention of not speaking the "acting" part of the rank (but it was written, just as A/MCpl is written but not spoken today). I believe the rank was awarded to people who had completed their trade training but didn't yet have a BWK (back in the days when all naval officers had one), or vice-versa.

Today it's more or less supplanted Midshipman (an untrained officer, i.e.); I'm not really certain what a pre-unification Naval Cadet was. I remember hearing that it was either someone who hadn't yet finished basic training or someone attending service college. Anyone recall?

A Naval Cadet was the rank for officer candidates while in the service college.  E.G. In the beginning of the RCN, students at the Royal Naval College of Canada were NCdt and they became Midshipmen upon graduation and eventually A/SLt.

During the wars, many new officers were promoted from MIDN to Probationary Temporary Acting Sub-Lieutenants RCNVR and worked their way through to A/SLt. 

A good webpage for this kind of thing in the UK Navy is:  http://www.naval-history.net/WW2aaRN-PayTables00Ranks-Badges.htm

 

[FSTO]

Scuttlebutt has it that the Executive Curl will be introduced (along with the Sea Service Indicator) by the MND at BOA ceremonies in Halifax in May of this year.

 

[ModlrMike]

For what it's worth, I think the SSI is a stupid idea, and hope it's cancelled. I can only see a "them vs us" sense of elitism being fostered. Those of us who serve(d) in purple trades don't need to be reminded that we're not hard sea.

 

[FSTO]

For what it's worth, I think the SSI is a stupid idea, and hope it's cancelled. I can only see a "them vs us" sense of elitism being fostered. Those of us who serve(d) in purple trades don't need to be reminded that we're not hard sea.

If you have drawn sea pay you will be eligible for the SSI.

 

[dimsum]

Sorry if this has been answered (I've searched to no avail and haven't been at work for a while) but what is the SSI? 

 

[Pusser]

Oldgateboatdriver, thank you for the compliment.  It might also please you to know that I used to grease engines in gate vessels as well. 

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

For what it's worth, I think the SSI is a stupid idea, and hope it's cancelled. I can only see a "them vs us" sense of elitism being fostered. Those of us who serve(d) in purple trades don't need to be reminded that we're not hard sea.

I disagree.  Many purple trades will merit the top level of the SSI.  I've sailed with a number of cooks, supply techs, air crew, etc that have many years of sea time.  I think of the SSI as a campaign medal for sailors.  Many sailors spend significant periods deployed (especially those belonging to MOG 4/5) yet only have a CD.

 

[ekpiper]

I too am curious about what the Sea Service Indicator is.  I have a couple of guesses, but they're just that.  Can anyone clue me in?

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I too am curious about what the Sea Service Indicator is.  I have a couple of guesses, but they're just that.  Can anyone clue me in?

Purely speculation at this point but the rumour is...

The SSI will be a metal badge worn above the right pocket of the short sleeve shirt and an embroidered cloth version sewn on the left sleeve of the tunic. The colour of the SSI will indicate the number of years an individual has served at sea (gun metal grey, bronze, silver, and gold).