NATO apologizes after U.S. soldier opens fire on Afghan civilians

[Fishbone Jones]

I own an infidel shirt; it's too small to wear.  :-[

I have lots and wear them regularly.

 

[armyvern]

I have lots and wear them regularly.

Want to donate an upsized one to me??  >

 

[fraserdw]

OK, so I am not strange afterall....whew!

 

[Journeyman]

It's the same hand-wringing mindset that would have me apologize for being a white anglo male; I know, I went to a Canadian university.

So sure, I did personally cause all of the world's problems -- I just haven't gotten the wording of my apology, and a suitable tone of contrition, quite right just yet. I'm sure it'll just be a second; hold your breath.


ps - I too have an Infidel t-shirt. Unlike the majority of them out there though, mine is cool!  :nod:



In case you can't see it, what is being said here is not remotely the same, or condones, shooting a bunch of unarmed anyone in their sleep.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one.

Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?

 

[GAP]

Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one.

Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?

doesn't that make you a retrobate?

 

[fraserdw]

Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one.

Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?

Sorry sunshine, but if y'all is swillin' pig and hops, y'all is INFIDEL no matter who ya's prayin' ta!!! LOL

 

[armyvern]

Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one.

Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?

Careful no one slaps a Fatwa on your ass! 

:cheers:

 

[jollyjacktar]

Technical I can't wear the infidel shirt because I am not one.

Do they have one that says;  Pork and Beer swilling Muslim dude"?

Ah, you're a Jack-Muslim just like my wife. 

I never did buy one of the Infidel tees but I wish I had of bought a Achmed the Dead Terrorist patch which said, "Silence!  We killed him and we'll kill you!"  I hesitated and they were all sold out never to be replaced during my time in KAF.

 

[brihard]

It's the same hand-wringing mindset that would have me apologize for being a white anglo male; I know, I went to a Canadian university.

So sure, I did personally cause all of the world's problems -- I just haven't gotten the wording of my apology, and a suitable tone of contrition, quite right just yet. I'm sure it'll just be a second; hold your breath.

Feel better now that you've got that out? Can the conversation move on now back to what's relevant and actually being discussed?

Given that I'm the only person who's vocally been on the particular side you're obviously aiming this at, maybe not read more into what I've said than what I actually wrote? As a university educated white male myself - a huge proponent of free speech and utterly unapologetic for being so - I still differentiate between 'can' and 'ought'. Not on grounds of political correctness, but just because some things are inherently crass, and more importantly because in the context of our profession unthinking crassness can come across as something entirely different when viewed by outsiders- be they our own civilian population, be they the civilian population of a state we're operating in, or be they the potentially belligerent but undecided population of an AO.

Regarding one of the posts earlier, no, it's not 'adopting a label', 'taking it back' or what have you. We're not a bunch of black urban rap culture kids who've 'reclaimed' ethnic slurs. We're not talking about those of us in the reserves who've jokingly adopted the moniker 'toon' as a mark of contempt for those who actually mean it. The danger in the way some are looking at it here is that we're looking at labels that we'll unthinkingly make fun of, but that from the enemy's point of view serve not to simply degrade us as we'd think of a slur here, but as an actual, no-shit motivator to bring undecided locals on side against us. 'Infidel' or 'crusader' or what have you aren't just something used against us as an insult. They're labels which, if they stick, if they're accepted by the population, serve to make more of them accepting of working to actively kill us. That's sort of a big deal. The moral significance of the terms to us is practically nil. To the civilian population in a
place like Afghanistan it can mean a hell of a lot more. In the wake of the Koran burning controversy I'm astounded that people would still be so lightly and unthinkingly dismissive of the cultural ignorance on display here.

We can't pretend we're in conflicts where these things don't matter. If we were in a straight up war where we can win simply by killing the enemy, great. But if we're in complex counterinsurgency operations where what we do today, tomorrow, and this year in this country will have an effect on how we're perceived ten years down the road in the next country, is the smug 'fuck you' we throw out at an enemy we hold rightly in contempt worth the long term potential impact? For that matter, can we look our own population in the eye and say we're faithfully serving their interests if we refuse to give a damn about the cultural intricacies or nuance that can make our job much easier, or much harder- in a job where 'harder' is measured in caskets?

I'm not saying a t shirt, a patch or a hat is going to individually make much of a difference. But it's the stupid small crap that collectively adds up and leads to bigger mistakes- and that invariably gets pointed at in retrospect, spun out of context and out of proportion, and used to demonize us when some jackass makes a dramatic mistake down the road and the foaming edges of our political spectrum decide it's 'take shots at the CF' week.

If thinking critically about how we present ourselves as professionals and how it contributes to bigger issues is 'hand wringing', so be it. I'd rather by the time it comes to trigger pulling we've seized whatever advantages we can, and denied as many as possible to the enemy. And that includes avoiding things that would negatively colour the perception amongst very fickle and very suspicious and traditionally rooted indigenous populations that we might need to bring on side. No need to help accurize the enemy's own propaganda.

 

[Kalatzi]

In an effort to get this thread a bit more back on track let me share a bit more of my concern with you.

I entered the CF as Militia in the early 70's.  I was attached to Reg Force on several occasions. Also with National Guard, and boy those guys were happy they weren't in Nam.

For those of you complain abut lack of public support now, have I got news for you. No Its not the usual - and we walked 15 miles each day to school - uphill - both ways.

The hazing we took from our civilian classmates was just brutal the first couple of years. That said - I never had a problem with civilians when in uniform.

The Americans virtually destroyed their military, and it didn't happen on the battlefield.  Others can speak much better on this than I, maybe we should have a grammar check as well,  it took them decades to bring it back.

A poster on one of the other threads noted that one of the European groups - Danes? Dutch"still have a high level of public support.

I'd suggest that Public Affairs types ply their counterparts with plenty of libations and scrutinize and adopt their campaign.

No one doubts Allied prowess on the tactical level, but it seems that there is plenty of room for improvement on the higher levels.

Its seems especially important that we improve for future missions.

This isn't going to go over well however, when I heard that former PM St. Trudeau  had been elevated,  I damn near yodelled with joy, was planning on dancing on his grave.

However, even then I think that one of the best things that PM's Pearson and Trudeau did was to keep us of of Vietnam.

I'm just developing this thought. Think things aren't all that great now? Vietnam AND Antiwar riots AND a full blown FLQ crisis? Would we still have a CF?. Heck Would we still have a country.

In summary our tactical capabilities are great, Others not so much

 

[jollyjacktar]

Brihard, unless I missed it somewhere I have not read any post here by someone who owns an Infidel shirt speaking of wearing it in theatre or rah rahing it either.  They have said they wear them or in Vern's case would (if her's fit) back here in Canada.  As was mentioned, this is a free county, still.  If they want to wear said shirt here so be it.  They've earned the right to do so and you should respect that right.  If you don't want to wear such attire, or don't agree with it, well again it's a free country, still.  You have that right.  You want respect, give respect.  It's a two way conversation, that.

 

[brihard]

Brihard, unless I missed it somewhere I have not read any post here by someone who owns an Infidel shirt speaking of wearing it in theatre or rah rahing it either.  They have said they wear them or in Vern's case would (if her's fit) back here in Canada.  As was mentioned, this is a free county, still.  If they want to wear said shirt here so be it.  They've earned the right to do so and you should respect that right.  If you don't want to wear such attire, or don't agree with it, well again it's a free country, still.  You have that right.  You want respect, give respect.  It's a two way conversation, that.

I'm not particularly concerns about the people here on this site. Most are smart enough not to be idiots about it, and I have full faith from my years on this site that every person who's yet appeared in this thread is conscious of the need to not make us look bad, and they govern themselves accordingly.

I'm not contesting that anyone has the right to wear things that express certain sentiments (although military law has its own pecularities on such things; we all know our rights are, in practice,a  bit more limited than those of a civilian). I'm not making a legal argument here. I'm saying that as professionals we need to be conscious that everything we do has an effect, and that unfortunately we're stuck in conflicts where these things matter more than they have in the past.

I respect unequivocally the right to express oneself. But 'rights' is legal terminology, and that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying that exercise of every right we have can run contrary to sound judgment, to good sense, or even to simple professionalism. Speaking myself as a professional and as a leader, I'm not going to just shut up about things that I think contribute to reinforcing the wrong parts of military culture that contribute in many small doses to leading us towards bigger real problems.

Do I *like* it that we have to govern ourselves this way? Hell no. But if everything we do has an effect, and if everything we do might be scrutinized, then part of being in our profession is realizing that it's an inevitability that if we don't self-police we're going to have trouble at some point down the road. If we go out of our way to be obnoxious in ways that could put the undecided both at home or abroad against us, what the hell are we doing?

There's the things we'll say and do in the JR's mess - in our own sort of professionally privileged forum - and then there's the face we'll show to the public and to those who live in the places we might have to operate. Taking off our uniforms and going home at the end of the day doesn't strip us of the significance of the things we do or say if people still know who we are.

 

[Journeyman]

Feel better now that you've got that out? Can the conversation move on now back to what's relevant and actually being discussed?

Truth be told, I was more discussing with the other 3-5 people that had Infidel t-shirts, with the yellow text at the bottom being for the benefit of any media people reading.

You were quite clear with your views, so I wasn't remotely trying to engage. Please, feel free to not wear an Infidel t-shirt, patch, or whatever is upsetting you, and relish the moral superiority you feel is your due.

While I was in their country, I assure you that I remained professional and respectful. I see no reason to change my lifestyle now that I'm home in my country. Mind you, fashion sense precludes me from wearing the t-shirt on a daily basis, but if I chose to I certainly wouldn't cower in fear of scandalizing someone wearing a burkha who comes into my local tavern for a beer.

I do worry, however, that you may turn an ankle coming down off that hobby-horse. You be careful. 

 

[Infanteer]

While I was in their country, I assure you that I remained professional and respectful.

That's not what the Pope would say.

 

[Jed]

...I For those of you complain abut lack of public support now, have I got news for you. ....
The hazing we took from our civilian classmates was just brutal the first couple of years. ...

The Americans virtually destroyed their military, and it didn't happen on the battlefield.  Others can speak much better on this than I, maybe we should have a grammar check as well,  it took them decades to bring it back.
....
. Think things aren't all that great now? Vietnam AND Antiwar riots AND a full blown FLQ crisis? Would we still have a CF?. Heck Would we still have a country.

In summary our tactical capabilities are great, Others not so much

I didn't expect that I would ever be quoting you Kalatzi, but you just never know. The early 1970's was a bad time if one wanted to be appreciated for wearing your country's uniform and expecting to be appreciated for it.

In the US, with the Vietnam war winding down and up here in Canada with PET running the show being in the military, especially in the Reserves, was a sure fire way of preventing close relationships developing with the opposite sex.

The military community pretty much had to become self sufficient and look to each other for home support. Maybe this led to the attitudes that spawned the 'decade of darkness' some years later.

 

[Journeyman]

That's not what the Pope would say.

OK, I was respectful and professional towards the Afghans. The Americans.... :dunno:

;D

 

[brihard]

Truth be told, I was more discussing with the other 3-5 people that had Infidel t-shirts, with the yellow text at the bottom being for the benefit of any media people reading.

My apologies; I was wrong.

You were quite clear with your views, so I wasn't remotely trying to engage. Please, feel free to not wear an Infidel t-shirt, patch, or whatever is upsetting you, and relish the moral superiority you feel is your due.

I don't claim any moral superiority. Please don't put words in my mouth- as you said, I'm quite clear in my views. I don't think I'm better than anyone here, I just look at one issue a different way. I like to think that as a community of professionals this is the sort of thing we should see the value in talking about, particularly when we've probably all at some point or another had to push upon our soldiers the needs to consider how they comport themselves publicly; it's something that's only ever getting trickier and more important.

While I was in their country, I assure you that I remained professional and respectful.

Which I never doubted. I never saw anything while I was deployed overseas  that led me to question our operational professionalism. Nor at home in domestic ops. That's not at issue here. I'm sure that I recall in between bouts of beating my head off the desk last week that there's still something on the PER about 'conduct off duty', which suggests to me that's something we pay attention to because it presumably matters somehow and somewhere.

...but if I chose to I certainly wouldn't cower in fear of scandalizing someone wearing a burkha who comes into my local tavern for a beer.

I don't think any of us are too fussed about giving individual offense to someone- although I personally think that simply not being rude is its own virtue. But it's an interesting conclusion when you refer right at the start to your earlier N.B. for the media types reading.

We wouldn't hand the enemy AK ammo. Why hand them ammo for their PR machine?

 

[aesop081]

something on the PER about 'conduct off duty', which suggests to me that's something we pay attention to because it presumably matters somehow and somewhere.

It is "Conduct on/off duty" and i submit that whoever decided to include that had different concerns that the potential to offend someone with off-duty fashion.

 

[brihard]

It is "Conduct on/off duty" and i submit that whoever decided to include that had different concerns that the potential to offend someone with off-duty fashion.

You're right of course; I was being unnecessarily snide. But I think the rest of what I'm saying still has merit.