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Qur'an blunder has made Afghan mission more dangerous

Rifleman62 said:
...

We always seem to blame the lowest common denominator. These soldiers are being blamed, and I am sure they feel lousy about the deaths and riots. Nobody is hearing the fact they were following legal orders given by a responsible authority.

We understand that; the locals do not. To them, it is a very disrespectful act. Period. Whether it was done on a lawful order or not is moot when the order should not have been given in the first place if one were to show even the smallest inkling of knowledge of their faith and some cultural sensitivity. This is exactly why Canadian troops undergo all those mandatory briefings prior to a deployment anywhere; apparently, the US can learn from that.

I just get more and more worried about the US these days and their obvious lack of troop briefings etc wrt to these areas prior to deployments. Over the past month, we have had them "unaware" of Geneva Conventions by pissing on dead enemy, unaware (bullshit, but that is the 'official story'  ::)) of the SS Nazi symbolism by a US Sniper Det posing in front, and adopting as their "symbol" the SS flag and also marking their weapons with the symbol; now this.

Unaware? I don't buy that either. If those two troops were not, it is a failure of their leadership. Cripes, that 'lil preacher in Florida and his Qu'ran burning had the entire Muslim world in an uproar and the whole world watched it on CNN --- except, apparently, the US military. Either that, or they just don't give a fuck, the rest be damned. With the recent and continued findings of "they didn't know about the Nazi symbolism" and now this, I am rapidly becoming convinced it's the latter.

Respect is a two way street, not a one way.

 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and play devil's advocate.

The soldiers were told the books were surplus and to get rid of them. "Here's some surplus books. Take 'em to the burn barrel"

These books had been in use by the prisoners. I highly doubt if these were english translations that stated, in english on the cover, what they were.

If the soldiers couldn't read Arabic, and if they hadn't been told what they were, to them they were just surplus books to be gotten rid of.

Was there also not a problem that there was some indication that these weren't true copies, but modified to act as code books?

If so, they stopped being a Qu'ran.

Seems a perfectly logical way of keeping them permanently inaccessable to those that would want to use them against us.
 
Graves of British troops (WWII) smashed and desecrated by Libyan Islamists in protest over U.S. soldiers' Koran burning

Link

A furious mob has desecrated dozens of Commonwealth War Graves in a Libyan cemetery amid continuing fury in the Middle East over the burning of the Koran by U.S. soldiers.

Headstones commemorating British and Allied servicemen, killed during World War II campaigns in the Western Desert, lay smashed and strewn across Benghazi Military Cemetery.

Protesters rampaged through site on Friday, despite efforts by America to calm tensions sparked when it emerged U.S. soldiers had burned Muslim holy books in a pile of rubbish at a military base in Afghanistan.

article-0-11E54F77000005DC-937_634x418.jpg

More images at the link.  :rage:
 
Daily Mail Feb 25th 2012
A furious mob has desecrated dozens of Commonwealth War Graves in a Libyan cemetery amid continuing fury in the Middle East over the burning of the Koran by U.S. soldiers.
Headstones commemorating British and Allied servicemen, killed during World War II campaigns in the Western Desert, lay smashed and strewn across Benghazi Military Cemetery
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106230/Insult-WWII-heroes-Graves-British-soldiers-smashed-desecrated-Libyan-Islamists-protest-U-S-soldiers-Koran-burning.html

The shattered headstone depicted  in the Daily Mail is a memorial for Flying Officer Martin Palmer Northmore, a pilot of 94 Squadron, Royal Canadian Air Force, who died in action over North Africa Oct 24th 1943. RIP.
There's a poem written by his aunt to commemorate his sacrifice here:
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/poem99/pmartin

They've obviously concentrated on obliterating the cross carved on the stone after they kicked it over, as an intended desecration.
 
"DISLIKE"  I really hate seeing this stuff .!!      :rage:
 
One class act follows another class act, 9 months to retirement.
 
I hear you...2 decades and I disappear to somewhere in the mountains. Never watching the news again  :nod:
 
This incident is highly disturbing:

26 February 2012
Afghan police officer sought over Kabul Nato killings

An Afghan police intelligence officer is being sought over the killing of two senior US Nato officers at the interior ministry in Kabul on Saturday.

Abdul Saboor, from Parwan province, was "the main suspect" and had fled the ministry following Saturday's attack, officials told the BBC.

Reports said the gunman opened fire in a secure room in the ministry - one of the highest security buildings in the capital - at close range.Complete article at LINK



 
And so it continues and escalates.  Shared with the usual caveats.  Full story at link. 

Afghan rioters lob grenades at NATO base
7 troops wounded, 2 Afghans killed in deadly protests over Qur'an burnings
The Associated Press
Posted: Feb 26, 2012 6:08 AM ET
Last Updated: Feb 26, 2012 10:19 AM ET

Protesters angry over Qur'an burnings by American troops lobbed grenades at a U.S. base in northern Afghanistan and clashed with police and troops in a day of violence that left seven international troops wounded and two Afghans dead.  The attacks were the latest in six days of violence across the country by Afghans furious at the way some Qur'ans at an American base outside of Kabul were disposed of in a burn pit. The incident has swiftly spiralled out of control leaving dozens of people dead, including four U.S. troops killed by their Afghan counterparts, in a sign of the tenuous nature of the relationship between Afghanistan and the U.S.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/02/26/afghan-shooting-karzai.html
 
An updated report on events by The New York Times:

Blast Injures U.S. Soldiers as Riots Rage in AfghanistanBy GRAHAM BOWLEY and ALISSA J. RUBIN
KABUL, Afghanistan — A grenade thrown by Afghan protesters wounded at least six American service members in northern Afghanistan on Sunday, officials said, as new details emerged in the investigation of the shooting death of two American officers within the Interior Ministry building the day before.

Rioting continued across the country on Sunday as anger over the burning of Korans by the American military continued unabated, putting the relationship between Afghanistan and the United States on shaky new ground. At least one Afghan was killed in clashes with the Afghan police.

A few details of the killing within the Interior Ministry were emerging, although many reports offered conflicting views of what had happened. According to three Afghan security officials familiar with the case, the main suspect was Abdul Saboor, who was said to have worked in the ministry for more than a year as a driver. The two American officers who were killed were shot in the head and the pistol used to kill them was equipped with a silencer, the officials said.

Afghan officials said that Mr. Saboor was at large, apparently able to leave the ministry without complication after the shooting. That suggested to some observers that he may have had help in the attack.

----------------------------------------

The Koran burnings and the subsequent unrest is complicating relations between the United States and the Afghan government at a time of critical negotiations, including the future of the main American prison in Afghanistan, and future cooperation between Afghanistan and the United States after the 2014 deadline for an American troop withdrawal.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Sunday expressed regret for the incident involving the Korans but said it should not derail the American military and diplomatic effort in Afghanistan.

“We are condemning it in the strongest possible terms,” she said in Rabat, Morocco, “but we also believe that the violence must stop, and the hard work of trying to build a more peaceful, prosperous and secure Afghanistan must continue.”

Meanwhile, Ambassador Ryan Crocker, the United States ambassador to Afghanistan, told CNN that the assassination of the two American officials would not lessen America’s commitment to the region. "This is not the time to decide we’re done here. We’ve got to redouble our efforts," he said. “If we decide we’re tired of it, Al Qaeda and the Taliban certainly aren’t."

LINK




 
The two American officers who were killed were shot in the head and the pistol used to kill them was equipped with a silencer, the officials said.

Afghan officials said that Mr. Saboor was at large, apparently able to leave the ministry without complication after the shooting. That suggested to some observers that he may have had help in the attack.

Clearly the same assassin planted the books with the two US soldiers. Diabolical.

I wonder what these guys will be up in arms over and protesting next month?
 
I so agree, out mission over there should have been to build a giant 10 foot high fence around the whole Middle East with openings at certain points for the oil.  I would accpet a 100 dollar raise in the price of a barrel of oil if these people would get off and stay off the local news.  I am really really finding it hard to develop even a small amount of empathy for the whole of the following of islam.  They are like a "never leave home, never finish school, teenage daughter".  And I know teenage daughters!!!!!
 
France and Germany withdraw advisors from Afghan ministries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17171798
 
tomahawk6 said:
France and Germany withdraw advisors from Afghan ministries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17171798


Ditto Canadians

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-work-in-afghanistan-halted-after-violence/article2350611/
Canadian work in Afghanistan halted after violence

"Canadian officials in Afghanistan have been ordered to stay out of government buildings after two senior American officers were killed inside a supposedly secure ministry office in Kabul."

More on link
 
While the killing of the two US officers coincides in time with the anger over the burnings, I suspect it is not accurate to link the two in any other way.  As media reports are suggesting shots in the back of the head with a silenced pistol, the two murders are something that was in the work much earlier than the burnings.  The murders may have happened sooner to exploit the current turmoil and emotion, but they were eventually going to happen even without it.

 
MCG said:
While the killing of the two US officers coincides in time with the anger over the burnings, I suspect it is not accurate to link the two in any other way.  As media reports are suggesting shots in the back of the head with a silenced pistol, the two murders are something that was in the work much earlier than the burnings.  The murders may have happened sooner to exploit the current turmoil and emotion, but they were eventually going to happen even without it.


Agreed, and as others have mentioned the killings of allied forces by members of the Afghan forces and police, especially inside "secure" compounds, reduces the trust we can have in them and reduces the confidence they have in our capabilities ... it is win/win for the Taliban.
 
Here is an article with what I feel are some intersting thoughts on the whole mess.

Reproduced under the fair use prvision of the copyright act. http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/03/05/medium_rare_some_thoughts_from_an_afghan_war_vet_on_the_koran_burning_riots

By "_B_"

Best Defense frequent commenter

I'd like to analyze the riots currently going on in Afghanistan by breaking down who did what and why.

1. Some ISAF guys (presumably detainee handler MPs) attempted to dispose via burning some Qurans that had been written in by detainees in an attempt to pass each other notes. Being idiots, they didn't inquire about proper Quran disposal procedures. Being REAL idiots, they didn't burn them thoroughly but just sort of scorched some of them.

2. Some Afghan garbage haulers working on the FOB found the half-burned Qurans. Being Muslim, they got riled up and snuck them off-base. (I presume the scorched Qurans seen in some photographs of demonstrations comes from Bagram and was not purposely burned by Afghans for propaganda purposes.)

3. The gate guards let them through without a proper search. You have to presume that all kinds of other paperwork is walking through the gate (and not being publicized).

4. Presumably, the trash haulers brought this material to someone who made the call to publicize it. Either local political or religious authorities, or the Taliban. After some kind of analysis, these guys decided to exploit the scorched Qurans in their hands as a PSYOP.

5. At this point, if the U.S. had a functional and integrated SIGINT, HUMINT and Counterintelligence providing coverage in the vicinity of Bagram, they would have been inside the enemy's OODA loop and known what was going on. They apparently don't have such an operation and were caught by surprise. It's completely understandable -- Bagram is only ISAF's biggest base. Apparently, the talent and resources are pooled to support the pipe hitters who are snatching and killing Talib leadership, and there's not enough left to let anyone know what's going on outside the front gate. The fact that HUMINTers have been FOB-bound for at least the last half-decade due to retarded safety considerations which became a self-fulfilling prophecy doesn't help much.

Had military leaders known what was going on, they would have theoretically been able to stop it by showing up to the key players' houses and making them offers they could not refuse, e.g., "take this money, give me the burned Qurans and forget this ever happened, or we'll kill you and your whole family," and/or come up with a PR plan to discredit these guys and make them look like liars (Hey, it's a war -- bad things happen.) Or they could have used a brute force approach and bribed the tribal leaders of the Afghans living around U.S. bases to have them keep their guys from protesting. In practice American PSYOPs mostly consist of printing up hackneyed agitprop and posting it on walls/dropping it from aircraft/reading it through loudspeakers at the local populace.

6. Upon having this information publicized and being invited by their local Taliban representatives to engage in rioting, thousands of Afghans did so. They did this even though every ISAF base has a well-defended perimeter and crowds, no matter how fervent, are notoriously bad at stopping 7.62 and even 5.56.

As a guy who's once faced down an angry Afghan mob (small, about 120 guys,) I'd like to point out that contrary to common wisdom, they are not, in fact, irrational rage-monkeys. Afghans do not survive in a harsh, Malthusian environment by being bad at cost-benefit analysis. They knew that ISAF soldiers, driven by their fear of their commanders' response, would try to avoid lighting them up. And they were right. The fact that some of the posters were in English during this first wave of protests makes me think that this was a fairly carefully planned Taliban PSYOP aimed at the American media. But from the standpoint of the average rioter, outrage and rioting are fun and potentially profitable -- there's good loot to be had from overrunning a U.S. base.

7. The ISAF commander, General Allen, apologized profusely to "to the president of Afghanistan, the government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, and most importantly, to the noble people of Afghanistan" and assured everyone that measures were being taken to ensure this would never happen again, ever. I personally suspect that GEN Allen, deep down inside, has not drank the COIN Kool-Aid and does not really care about the noble people of Afghanistan. Contrary to the tone of this message, he is not wrought with remorse and contrition and would, if he could, empirically prove the above thesis about how bad crowds are at stopping 7.62 and 5.56. At the very least, given free rein, he would follow the classic PR algorithm when confronted with embarrassing facts -- lie, deny and make counteraccusations. But GEN Allen has learned the lesson presented by GEN McChrystal -- give the U.S. media something juicy to dig into, and they'll tell the president to fire you -- and he will. Therefore, some public belly-crawling was in order, despite its predictable effects on the Afghan people's behavior.

8. Emboldened by the commander of ISAF setting the tone for subsequent crowd control and public relations efforts, more Afghans joined the riots. A few of them finally got themselves shot by U.S. troops forced to decide whether to get overrun and lynched or risk their careers. Of course, had we firmly established right off the bat that as long as there's a war on, any demonstrations in the vicinity of U.S. bases will get brutally crushed, none of this would have happened.

9. Also, some insurgent infiltrators of the GIROA and ANSF capped a few Americans. Nothing new there, it's been going on for a while, and presumably without the Quran burning controversy these infiltrators would have done the exact same thing eventually, but it's being used synergetically for maximum PSYOP impact. Not being constantly distracted by red-faced sergeant majors, reflective belts and hourly powerpoints, even the Taliban can figure this stuff out. Effective PSYOPs -- so simple, even a caveman could do it!

The problem of unreliable Afghan troops is inherent in the relationship between ANSF and ISAF, where the latter "advise" the former instead of being integrated into a mixed colonialist structure. But such structure is politically impossible. Any senior officers publically advocating one will be set upon by the American media and academia, which will say mean things about them, compare them to King Leopold and other bad colonialist oppressors of the past, and get them fired by their civilian leadership. Therefore the sham of "independent" Afghan security forces continues. These forces vet their personnel about as well as they do everything else, with the result that they are full of guys with either mixed or treasonous loyalties. The advisors embedded in these security forces have no command authority or any real leverage over their advisees, and are reduced to publically praising the whole arrangement while waiting out their tour and praying they don't get capped in the back of the head.

10. The president apologized to Afghans via a note sent to Hamid Karzai. Possible reasons for this action: 1) The president's well-documented penchant for apologizing to the world for American actions. 2) Having been elected by the American media, the president is afraid that he might get unelected by it, and is propitiating its representatives by doing what they expect. 3) The president (or his advisors) plan to use the predictable result of demonstrating to the Afghan people that our weakness runs all the way to the top to incite them to keep rioting and attacking U.S. bases. This will be used to demonstrate to the U.S. press and think tanks that the war has failed and the only thing left to do is to pull out. Beginning a pullout of all or most conventional U.S. forces from Afghanistan around the spring or summer would give the president a popularity boost, assuming the Taliban could be bribed or induced to hold off on any mass offensives until after the election. While seemingly farfetched, this scenario would be well within the time-honored American political tradition where the Progressives and the guys killing American troops make an informal and unspoken alliance for mutual benefit (see: Korea, Vietnam, Iraq.) I wouldn't put something that wicked past our leadership, but it does seem a bit too complicated and well-planned.

11. Most likely outcome -- a negative feedback loop, where an intensification of mob violence causes the sense of self-preservation of U.S. troops on the ground to override their fear of a career-ending incident and they start lighting the Afghan mobs up. The Afghans' sense of self-preservation will in turn prevail over the great fun and potential for loot that are to be had in rioting, and they will calm down. A return to the status quo for the time being.

To "_B" is to do.
 
A bit belatedly, but a former Canadian OMLT'eer on why the "giving them Korans" may not work in general....
I wasn't surprised to hear about the Afghan riots around alleged burning of Korans at Bagram. This incident, and the reaction to it, was inevitable, given the politics of Westerners handling that particular book.

We had a similar issue in Kandahar in late 2008. There had been an attempt to reach out to the Afghan people through the distribution by the military of Pashto-Arabic Korans. Very ornate, beautiful books. But Westerners couldn't be seen to handle the books, our Afghan advisors felt, so direct gifting was impossible. So we attempted to give them through the Afghan military, where I was an advisor. This was also problematic: the military didn't like getting Korans from westerners' hands, either, and they couldn't really give them out themselves, because they knew their defiling origin. So that was a non-starter. We also started to see returns of holy books previously given, as word spread that the words might somehow have been adulterated or bowdlerized by Westerners. It being, of course, impossible to disprove that particular negative, the whole Koran-gifting thing basically shut down.

This, though, created another problem: what to do with the books now? Neither holy nor unholy, they could not be disposed of in any rational manner. The Afghans would not take possession under any circumstances, nor would they give them back to our control (because they were, at least somewhat, still the word of God). This proved a very difficult issue to negotiate, and as I recall ended with basically everyone just agreeing to pretend they weren't there.

I have no doubt that the supply of burnable copies of the Koran at Bagram airbase ended up there in some similar fashion. This is not a goodwill gesture, it seems, that can ever, ever work. Furthermore, as the Western presence winds down and seacans are emptied and their contents disposed of rather than shipped home, one should expect similar such incidents in future.

UPDATE: Richard Minniter calls the discrimination of Korans both "novel and sincere." It's certainly not the former, and experience suggests the impossibility of convincing Afghans of the latter. The most likely result of any such initiative now would be another sea container full of potentially burnable Korans in Bagram.
 
Time to fight fire with fire, start showing pictures of the Mosques destroyed by the Taliban, the books shredded and covered in the blood of their targets. Start showing what the Taliban and AQ have done to innocent Muslim, show very graphic images ask where is the outrage?

I sigh when I hear how the Quran is considered. Neither Mohammed or  Gabriel wrote the Quran, it is told that Gabriel recited the words from the holy Quran in heaven to Muhammad. Who then recited them to his followers, verbally, some were written down at the time by others, some were not. After his death it was realized that the words he spoke were being lost and misspoke. A committee of wise man and relatives was put together to collect and record the words of Muhammad. They were presented with many versions of the same verse and had to choose which one would likely been correct.
Now we all know just how successful committees are…..     
 
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