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Qur'an blunder has made Afghan mission more dangerous

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Fisher: Qur'an blunder has made Afghan mission more dangerous
Matthew Fisher, Postmedia News 23 Feb
http://www.canada.com/news/Fisher+blunder+made+Afghan+mission+more+dangerous/6199087/story.html#ixzz1nFHTWQeQ

MOSCOW — Thanks to a staggering blunder by American troops, the jobs of all NATO soldiers in Afghanistan, including more than 900 Canadian military advisers scattered across more than a dozen bases in Kabul and western Afghanistan, got more complicated and dangerous this week.

President Barack Obama apologized to Afghans Thursday for the ignorance of two U.S. soldiers who burned several Holy Qur'ans at a U.S. airbase near the Afghan capital. It was the second abject American apology since the religious books were put in an incinerator at the Bagram Airbase dump on Monday night.

The incident has infuriated Afghans, who are regarded across the Islamic world as among the most pious of Muslims. Violent demonstrations have ensued that are likely to get worse after the mullahs lecture the faithful at prayers this Friday.

Here are the costs so far. Six Afghan protesters are dead. So are two NATO soldiers who were shot and killed in eastern Afghanistan by a man dressed in an Afghan army uniform. There has been widespread rioting. A number of NATO bases have been attacked. The Taliban — which thrives when they receive such incendiary gifts from those they are fighting — has demanded that Afghans avenge the burnings by beating up and murdering any "infidels" whose paths they cross.

As a result of what happened at the old Soviet base at Bagram, a logistics hub where the U.S. air force launches many of its attack drones, most of the western citadels in Kabul, including NATO bases, embassies and NGOs are on lockdown. Given that I was staying this week in a lightly guarded guest house in the capital, I am thankful that after being trapped for three days by snowstorms and fog, I was able to fly out of the capital Tuesday just as news of what had happened at Bagram began to circulate. Friends who are still there say they are too scared to venture outside right now.

How can it possibly be, 124 months after invading Afghanistan and after at least 250,000 U.S. troops have rotated through Afghanistan and half a million more have rotated through Iraq, with many on their third and fourth tours, that there are still soldiers who have no clue as to the significance of the Qur'an to Muslims?

There is no point saying that Afghans overreact to such incidents. The reality is that they do react this way. And there is no question that treating religious materials in such a manner is highly offensive and disrespectful, with inevitable consequences in a country as volatile as Afghanistan.

Nor does it help that this follows a recent incident in which U.S. Marines shot a video of themselves urinating on the corpses of several Taliban fighters.

Fingers are now being pointed mostly at the two hapless soldiers at Bagram who dumped the Qur'ans in the fire. But they are hardly the only ones to blame. More culpable, almost certainly, are the Americans who run Bagram's notorious detention centre. They were the ones who collected the Qur'ans and sent them off to be burned because they were no longer needed as the number of most Afghans and Pakistanis being held at the base has been declining.

If only they had asked their army of Afghan interpreters, they surely would have alerted them to the fact that the Qur'an was venerated and should never be sent to a dump to be burned.

There are, I am told, proper ways to dispose of Qur'ans including burial in a Muslim cemetery. However, clearly the easiest thing to have done if the Qur'ans were no longer required at the detention centre, would have been to give them to local mullahs. These religious leaders would have been duty bound to accept them and protect them.

Most culpable of all are likely the men and women in the U.S. who devise and run the training programs that troops attend before deploying to Afghanistan. It would be interesting to know how these courses compare to those given to Canadian soldiers and diplomats before their Afghan tours. From what the Canadians have told me, these briefings always include a stiff dose of no-nonsense information from Afghan-Canadian mentors about cultural and religious sensitivities and taboos and how to avoid running afoul of them.

Given the consequences of this colossally stupid act at Bagram, Obama might have also apologized to Canada and to the other coalition forces in Afghanistan for making the work of their troops more perilous.



 
Yes, this is a huge faux pas, with dire consequences. My question is: Is this a simply stupid act by fools or has this somehow been manipulated by local base support employees hooked into the Taliban?
 
Burning any culture or religions holy books are never a good idea. Every documentary I watched on Afghanistan troops are always helping and supporting the locals to gain their trust/support. This stupid act of burning the Qur'an is a advantage for the Taliban due to the fact now they can recruit more civilians by saying hey look they burned our holy book this means holy war. I respect every religion and every culture and disrespecting any ones believes like that is foolish. Hopefully our troops will not lose life over this incident 
 
A supply of Qur'an's came into KAF for distribution and use of detainees and others.  We were not to touch them in any manner and had our LEP's take charge of dealing with them.  No chance of any indisgressions that way.
 
This incident doent make the mission more dangerous.We have had incidents before this where ANA have killed their mentors.This was a poorly thought out plan.The books should have been boxed up and shipped to the US and locked away in a warehouse.
 
Of course it makes it more dangerous. Sure, there's always the small green on blue threat, but now we've thrown gas onto the fire with this issue. Fringe ANA/ANP who don't like us but wouldn't consider violent action are now being put into a position to justify it.
 
PuckChaser said:
Of course it makes it more dangerous. Sure, there's always the small green on blue threat, but now we've thrown gas onto the fire with this issue. Fringe ANA/ANP who don't like us but wouldn't consider violent action are now being put into a position to justify it.
Adding to this, the Taliban's Info-machine is sure using it's bandwidth to get even more Afghan security forces to kill allies:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/104321/post-1117874.html#msg1117874
 
jollyjacktar said:
A supply of Qur'an's came into KAF for distribution and use of detainees and others.  We were not to touch them in any manner and had our LEP's take charge of dealing with them.  No chance of any indisgressions that way.

Gotta respect their culture.
When we were building up MSG we had a  WO order us not to drink water in front of local afghans hired to help us with the labor because they weren't allowed to drink during the day so it was rude of us to also.
 
PuckChaser said:
Of course it makes it more dangerous. Sure, there's always the small green on blue threat, but now we've thrown gas onto the fire with this issue. Fringe ANA/ANP who don't like us but wouldn't consider violent action are now being put into a position to justify it.

Considering what I've seen of Afghan culture and all the stupid ways they'll justify murder or purposefully maiming someone- including their religious craziness I really don't care too much about winning their hearts and minds.

Sure this is a big deal to them, but so is showing the bottom of your feet- just on a lesser scale. They'll use any reason to riot & protest. We need to stop kidding ourselves with the pipe dream that we'll turn them into a democracy or any kind of fair government backed by a professional ethical army.
 
You know, it's admirable, the good deeds that the CF - those who have deployed previous to OP ATTENTION and those now mentoring have done. In my opinion though, Afghanistan is a lost cause. We get 5 steps ahead in progress, and the Americans seem to put us back another 20. We as Canadians are becoming the fodder to the American's stupid decisions. The Taliban don't care to look at us and go "Oh wait, those are Canadians. Don't shoot them, they actually deliver our Qu'rans properly." They'll shoot anyway, or they'll realize "Oh wait, they built clinics and let girls read books. Shoot them anyway." While the combat loses are/were tragic, I honestly thought that the CF was making some pretty good (comparatively...?) progress forward in flushing out the Talibums but all of you with a GCS will certainly know better than I do.

After all the money is gone, after all the clothing is gone; along with the food, the water, and all hope of survival... All people have left is their family, and their religion. When a person has lost everything and you try to take away or disgrace the only thing they have left (religion in this case), they're going to fight and history shows clear and visible evidence of that. The least they could have done is ASK somebody how to go about relocating the scriptures.
 
Grimaldus said:
Gotta respect their culture.
When we were building up MSG we had a  WO order us not to drink water in front of local afghans hired to help us with the labor because they weren't allowed to drink during the day so it was rude of us to also.
Yes indeed.  I worked on a daily basis with the LEPs.  I always allowed them their time to conduct prayers and we ensured there was an adequate supply of clean water for them to wash themselves beforehand.  When it was Ramadam, we did not eat or drink in their presence either.  They learned from us and we from them.

Grimaldus said:
Sure this is a big deal to them
And for good reason.  To a Muslim the words contained in a Qur'an are the direct as dictated to Gabriel words from God himself.  It's to them a true "Holy" book, more so than I would suggest the Bible is to a Christian as the words contained therein are not direct from God, verbatim as it were.  You've been there and have seen how much Islam is a daily influence in their lives.  No wonder they're all up in arms.

I imagine there would have somewhat the same response in Europe about 1000 years ago if you were to desecrate a holy item.  The peasants would pull you to pieces.
 
Were the items in question identifiable? The  soldiers would be able to identify a Bible written in English, or possible Spanish. Would they be able to identify the Qur'an ? Were the items in a bag/box/sandbag, contents unknown?

Who gave the order/instructions to gather up all the spare Qur'ans (less detainees as stated in the article) after determining there were spares, and what was required to be done with them?

I rather doubt two soldiers (whatever rank) assigned to burn "garbage" or classified material, or whatever, would on their own initiative, determine there were spares, collect the spares, and add more work to their detail by burning them.

We always seem to blame the lowest common denominator. These soldiers are being blamed, and I am sure they feel lousy about the deaths and riots. Nobody is hearing the fact they were following legal orders given by a responsible authority.
 
I would suggest it was more of an "irresponsible" authority.
 
"Oh wait, those are Canadians. Don't shoot them, they actually deliver our Qu'rans properly."

But there's a flip side to that too....

"Hey, let's lay off planting IED's this week. Our spies in camp say the Americans are being very respectful of our religion."
 
muskrat89 said:
But there's a flip side to that too....

"Hey, let's lay off planting IED's this week. Our spies in camp say the Americans are being very respectful of our religion."

But wait! I just sneezed and an American didn't say Allah bless you! Death to the infidels!!!!111
 
jollyjacktar said:
Yes indeed.  I worked on a daily basis with the LEPs.  I always allowed them their time to conduct prayers and we ensured there was an adequate supply of clean water for them to wash themselves beforehand.  When it was Ramadam, we did not eat or drink in their presence either.  They learned from us and we from them.
And for good reason.  To a Muslim the words contained in a Qur'an are the direct as dictated to Gabriel words from God himself.  It's to them a true "Holy" book, more so than I would suggest the Bible is to a Christian as the words contained therein are not direct from God, verbatim as it were.  You've been there and have seen how much Islam is a daily influence in their lives.  No wonder they're all up in arms.

I imagine there would have somewhat the same response in Europe about 1000 years ago if you were to desecrate a holy item.  The peasants would pull you to pieces.

I could not agree with you more .
 
If this is all the provocation necessary to undo much of what has been done, there is no point continuing the work.  Diplomatic faux pas are always going to happen.

10 years ago when this was all kicking off, my opinion was that it would take 20-30 years to achieve any lasting useful change (I am a relentless optimist) and that we would be lucky to sustain political will for 10 years.  Other than writing down the Taliban, I saw no point to intervening in Afghanistan any more than any other craphole where the locals abuse and terrorize some of their own people on the basis of religion, gender, caste, etc.

We did the 10 years.  Predictably, the NDP have been the shakiest political faction - they have no stomach for the long haul; they just want the photo ops with UN ball caps handing out sacks of grain and condoms, and then their R2P ADD sets in after about 6 months.  We should by now have proven to even the most optimistic and kind-hearted among us that we have not the political will, let alone the institutional capability, to modernize others and give them the gift of the institutions we think most valuable.

It is time for a new doctrine: when attacked, exploit military overmatch to decapitate the regime.  Rinse, repeat, as often as necessary, until the next regime decides to find another target for its grievances.  Don't frig around with people in harm's way for years at a stretch.
 
Posting from Riyadh, Saudia Arabia. This incident is having a ripple effect though the danger is not  critical. Mostly confined to disparaging comments from Muslim colleagues.

Saturday evening while flipping through the satellite tv stations in my apartment I caught a call-in talk show on a station called Press TV hosted by George Galloway who, of course, is doing his best to inflame or inflate the incident. He's loved here in Saudi (believe it or not!)


Edit, spelling.
 
Brad Sallows said:
10 years ago when this was all kicking off, my opinion was that it would take 20-30 years to achieve any lasting useful change (I am a relentless optimist) and that we would be lucky to sustain political will for 10 years.  Other than writing down the Taliban, I saw no point to intervening in Afghanistan any more than any other craphole where the locals abuse and terrorize some of their own people on the basis of religion, gender, caste, etc.

I was thinking didn't the Russians just try this for 10 years? We'll never be there that long. 
Well and this,
[video] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfWDilXZQEo [/video]
 
Grimaldus said:
Gotta respect their culture.
When we were building up MSG we had a  WO order us not to drink water in front of local afghans hired to help us with the labor because they weren't allowed to drink during the day so it was rude of us to also.

Ramadan; we did same during my tour in Afg and during my tour in Syria. No eating in view, no drinking of fluids in view, and absolutely no radio on in the vehicles when moving or at work, no earphones in the ear for music when running/gym. Also dropped down the ROs requiring all Canadians to be in long shirts and long pants from sunrise to sunset for the duration of their Holy observance. In contrast, the Americans did none of these things and although there were no direct 'incidents' as a result of such, the vendors and local workers were certainly not shy about their preference for dealing with "respectful Canadians" by actually going down the lines and serving the Canadians and other nations in it first while leaving the Americans until the end. Many US became very vocal about it, cursing at them etc ... I just hung my head and shook it; Jesus probably wept. Sometimes, hearts and minds are indeed the most respectful, important and successful way and means of getting shit done. It is the little shit like that that counts.
 
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