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National crisis: fentanyl & other super-opiate overdoses

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The fentanyl is in all sorts of drugs, even on the pot. Look at "rave drugs" people take them without a clue what they are. I have known lots of people that used various drugs and don't fit the "addict type" They run businesses, work jobs and do it on the weekends.
 
Colin P said:
The fentanyl is in all sorts of drugs, even on the pot. Look at "rave drugs" people take them without a clue what they are. I have known lots of people that used various drugs and don't fit the "addict type" They run businesses, work jobs and do it on the weekends.

There are lots of people who drink alcohol. Just because they run businesses, work jobs and only drink on weekends, does not excuse some of them from being alcoholics.  There are many addicts out there who are quite functional in society.  Just because they don't look like homeless or commit crimes to get money for their fix, does not mean that they are not addicts.
 
If it isn't properly prescribed medication and used by the intended patient as per, then I have a hard time feeling sorry for them as they're the one's opening their mouths and throwing the nasty pills down range and misusing a drug.  They're authors of their own misfortune and fate.  Free will and all that.
 
The problem is here in BC it's spreading to all the drugs, years ago I had to treat a guy having heart attack symptoms and coughing up blood, he admitted to smoking pot. Talking to our liaison with the BC Ambulance service, a lot of the pot available was being laced with rat poison. "Recreational use" here in BC is quite high and a number of the deaths are people who would not think are doing drugs and a lot of people see doing "recreational drugs" as acceptable and as a normal weekend activity. Not condoning it, but just identifying the areas we as a society can impact.   
 
jollyjacktar said:
I have a hard time feeling sorry for them

Me too. OD's were our bread and butter calls, that's all.


Fentanyl antidote doesn't make people invincible, Winnipeg paramedics warn
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-paramedics-warn-fentanyl-antidote-not-invincible-1.3826684
Calls for overdoses continue to rise.

 
George Wallace said:
There are many addicts out there who are quite functional in society.  Just because they don't look like homeless or commit crimes to get money for their fix, does not mean that they are not addicts.

True, but it also true the other way around. Just because someone uses drugs recreationally, doesn't mean they are an addict... which is what his point was and what many people dispute. They can see how one can drink recreationally without being addicted but can't believe for a second that someone might be able to use cocaine recreationally without being an addict.
 
MCG said:
So, you can cite a reputable source?

Ths is a seemingly objective, non-biased source discussing it (and the other variables involved).
http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decriminalisation-portugal-setting-record-straight

The reality is that Portugal’s drug situation has improved significantly in several key areas. Most notably, HIV infections and drug-related deaths have decreased, while the dramatic rise in use feared by some has failed to materialise. However, such improvements are not solely the result of the decriminalisation policy; Portugal’s shift towards a more health-centred approach to drugs, as well as wider health and social policy changes, are equally, if not more, responsible for the positive changes observed. Drawing on the most up-to-date evidence, this briefing clarifies the extent of Portugal’s achievement, and debunks some of the erroneous claims made about the country’s innovative approach to drugs.

<<<Cut>>>

But a more complete picture of the situation post-decriminalisation reveals:

Levels of drug use are below the European average

Drug use has declined among those aged 15-24,6 the population most at risk of initiating drug use

Lifetime drug use among the general population has increased slightly,8 in line with trends in comparable nearby countries. However, lifetime use is widely considered to be the least accurate measure of a country’s current drug use situation

Rates of past-year and past-month drug use among the general population – which are seen as the best indicators of evolving drug use trends – have decreased

Between 2000 and 2005 (the most recent years for which data are available) rates of problematic drug use and injecting drug use decreased

Drug use among adolescents decreased for several years following decriminalisation, but has since risen to around 2003 levels

Rates of continuation of drug use (i.e. the proportion of the population that have ever used an illicit drug and continue to do so) have decreased

I will point out here that many of the other variables in play that are discussed in the article would be equally recognized, perhaps even more so, if narcotics were legalized. Less stigma, easier to collect data, more resources available for treatment, etc.
 
It's always interesting to see people's disbelief in what happened in Portugal, it goes against everything we've had entrenched in our brains about drugs, laws, police, government, etc... However, if you put some thought into it, it really just flows very logically.
 
ballz said:
It's always interesting to see people's disbelief in what happened in Portugal, it goes against everything we've had entrenched in our brains about drugs, laws, police, government, etc... However, if you put some thought into it, it really just flows very logically.

Trust me I know.

Look at the angst I got for starting this thread;

Medical Cannabis for Canadian Veterans

 
Premier Clark's claim pot laced with fentanyl not true, say police

Clark's office says premier simply repeating info learned from VPD, RCMP, media and other emergency responders

By Mike Laanela, CBC News Posted: Nov 18, 2016 2:13 PM PT Last Updated: Nov 18, 2016 4:09 PM PT

It's a claim that's been repeated so often it's often assumed to be true — all they way up to the office of the Premier of B.C.

But police and health officials in B.C. say there is no evidence to back up Premier Christy Clark's comments yesterday in Ottawa that marijuana has been found laced with fentanyl in B.C.

Clark made the claim after meeting with federal officials to highlight her concerns about the fentanyl overdose crisis currently sweeping B.C.

The premier said police are finding traces of deadly fentanyl in all sorts of illegal drugs from cocaine to heroin to marijuana — and it's those combinations of drugs that are killing people.

"I think regulating marijuana is even more important now when we're finding fentanyl in marijuana," Clark said Thursday at a press conference in Ottawa.
Clark discusses the opioid crisis

B.C. Premier Christy Clark, centre, attends a meeting with federal officials in Ottawa Thursday, Nov. 17, 2016 to discuss B.C.'s opioid crisis with Leslie McBain, left, a mother who lost her only son to overdose, and Mikaela Mamer, an advocate and former addict who lost her boyfriend and best friend to overdoses. On the table are photos of people who have lost their lives to opioid overdoses. (Jennifer Choi/CBC)

But it turns out Clark was likely repeating some erroneous information, according to Vancouver Police Constable Brian Montague, who said while it has been suspected and raised by police as a concern, the claim has never actually been proven to be true.

"I can't speak for other police departments and I can't say that fentanyl has not, is not, or couldn't be placed in marijuana, but I can tell you the VPD has not seized marijuana that has been tested and shown to be laced with fentanyl," Montague said on Friday.

He notes, however, while police have seized fentanyl along with drugs like cocaine, heroin, meth and marijuana, they've never actually found fentanyl in the marijuana.

"This is a constant battle to try and keep this information accurate," he said.

"There have been comments made in the past regarding fentanyl in marijuana that may have been the belief at the time based on the information available, but it has shown not to be the case and we continue to try and correct any misinformation."
RCMP warnings lacked evidence

According to Premier Clark's office, she was simply repeating information learned from Vancouver police, RCMP, media and other emergency responders.

Even the CBC has reported anecdotal claims from community organizations.

The premier's office pointed to an RCMP warning last week that marijuana laced with fentanyl may be circulating in the Haida Gwaii community of Masset.

"Masset RCMP has reason to believe that there is marijuana available for sale in Masset that is laced with fentanyl," said the statement.

But Cpl. Madonna Saunderson told the CBC the warning was based solely on concerns raised by community members and there "was never any marijuana seized or handed to police" to back up the claims.
Fentanyl

Fentanyl is a powerful opioid painkiller that is commonly mixed into other drugs like cocaine and heroin. (CBC)

Likewise, at the RCMP's provincial headquarters in Surrey, Cpl. Janelle Shoilet says they have heard plenty of stories, but none have been proven true.

"We have even had individuals present with opioid overdose symptoms that have claimed they have only consumed marijuana," said Janelle.

"However, we have never seized or confirmed via chemical analysis any marijuana laced with or contaminated with fentanyl,
'No official confirmation of any cases to date'

The BC Coroners Service also confirmed its members have found no evidence of pot laced with fentanyl killing anyone in B.C.

"We cannot confirm any deaths that fit this pattern, and aren't aware of any," said spokesperson Barb McLintock.

"But that being said, all we really know is what was in someone's bloodstream after death. A toxicology report doesn't tell us when or how they consumed the substances involved."

Several other sources also said they actually have no evidence either, including Patricia Daly, the chief public health officer with Vancouver Coastal Health.

A similar lack of evidence was even confirmed by the provincial Ministry of Health.

"There is no official confirmation of any cases to date," said spokesperson Lori Cascaden.
One possible explanation

It all raises the question, why are the rumours persisting without any evidence?

Cascaden offers one possible explanation.

"There is the occasional report of overdoses where people reported taking marijuana, but responded to naloxone (the most effective antidote for a fentanyl overdose)," she said.

That might be because they are not comfortable admitting to using other types of harder drugs, she says.

"In such a situation, we would suspect an opioid was involved, but testing hasn't been conducted in any case that we are aware of at this time."
'A shadow of a possibility'

​B.C. Public Safety Minister Mike Morris said on Friday that he hadn't spoken to the premier about where she got her information, but he said, even if there was no hard evidence, her message was worthwhile.

"I'm looking at it from a public safety perspective here, and if there's a shadow of a possibility that fentanyl can be laced into marijuana or any other substance that we have out there, we need to be as vocal and vigilant as we can to make sure people are aware of that, so that's where I'm coming from," he said.

"You know, based on my experience in the police force, I've seen lots of drug trafficking locations where they've taken large quantities of drugs and repackaged them into smaller packages to sell and the cross contamination is unbelievable sometimes," said Morris, adding that the toll fentanyl has taken on B.C. lives has been enormous.

"If we have to apologize at the end of the day that maybe we overstated a couple things, I would rather do that than suffer the consequences."

With files from Rafferty Baker.

 
ballz said:
True, but it also true the other way around. Just because someone uses drugs recreationally, doesn't mean they are an addict... which is what his point was and what many people dispute. They can see how one can drink recreationally without being addicted but can't believe for a second that someone might be able to use cocaine recreationally without being an addict.

Agreed.  It is a fine line.  I remember the term "Weekend Alcoholics" applied to certain people who would remain sober all week, but would be totally wasted every weekend; and I mean every weekend, and holidays.
 
George Wallace said:
Agreed.  It is a fine line.  I remember the term "Weekend Alcoholics" applied to certain people who would remain sober all week, but would be totally wasted every weekend; and I mean every weekend, and holidays.

They fall into the abuse/borderline addict category, and cause no end of grief in the ER...these are the asshats that try drinking their pub dry and then have the snot beat out of them on YouTube for the world to blame the police on, go drive home and kill a few people or go home an abuse their spouses or renders themselves unconscious and aspirates their vomit; the clown that snorts some coke and shows up with chest pain with/without a full blown heart attack all while bouncing off the walls; the kid that went to a rave and didn't realize they shouldn't mix and match Ecstasy and what ever they're usually taking and now have serotonin syndrome and we're trying to keep their brains from melting; the teenager that gets into her granny's fentanyl patches she has for terminal cancer, extracts and shoots a 3 day dose into herself and we're now fighting to keep them breathing and not brain damaged.  I've left out the clowns that don't get a buzz after eating their weed, so take a lot more and then are gibbled up, or the potheads that show up with cyclic vomiting syndrome, the twit that does a meth/LSD combo and is totally paranoid/psychotic and thinks that everyone trying to help them are big purple elephant finger puppets.

I have of course left out the actual addicts - the ones that manage to eat 2 months worth of Percocet in a week and now think we owe them a refill and then get abusive when we politely and then impolitely tell them to phuque off; the mountains of tobacco addicts that clog our beds with COPD exacerbations, heart attacks, strokes and blood vessel disease; the fast/greasy/carb rich food addicts without an exercise addiction, that show up with new diabetes, heart attacks, strokes and liver/gallbladder disease; the other bone idle folks that sit around all day and show up with blood clots in their legs/lungs; the alcoholic with DT's, cirrhotic liver disease or a massive GI bleed; more potheads with cyclic vomiting; the little kids that show up for CFS checkups because their parents were too stoned or drunk (or both) to look after them.  I'm also kind of expecting a run of what I call "new COPD" from folks that smoke a pile of weed a day with unfiltered joints/bongs - funny how when I ask if someone smokes, most potheads will say no until I ask about cannabis use...oh yeah, 1/4-full pack day equivalent (for more than a few I might add)...and they can't figure out why they're having breathing issues.

I guess my issue is that the Canada Health Act ensures everyone has the right to walk into the ER (or be rolled in, dragged in by police or tossed in by friends) at any time for any reason and can't be turned away...even if it's because they're self-destructive and don't look after themselves.  It's bad enough that people come into the ER with a cold that's 20 minutes old "because I can't be sick right now" (and the undertone of "it's my right" ::) ) - when you consider that to get triaged, the province gets billed about $700 IIRC...not withstanding medications, instruments, radiography, salaries of docs, nurses, PA's/NP's, techs, etc, you can quickly end up in the 5-6 figures for a visit without admission.  Ward rate is about $8-900/day.  Until things get changed such that folks that show up like this are billed in one way or another (have a higher premium on their provincial healthcare for instance), they're going to become an increased burden on tax payers.  The problem as I see it is folks want their rights to self-determination but don't feel that they should pay for that same right - so the rest of us do.  Nothing in our society is free...to quote "Team America", "Freedom isn't free, it costs folks like you and me..."

On the bright side, I know I'll have a job for a few more years...if you want to legalize things, you should probably come see what things are like in ER's with stuff that is in fact already legal, forget the stuff that isn't.

:2c:

MM
 
Medicineman comments are indicative on what I heard from individuals working in hospitals ERs, walking clinics, or drug centers. IMO; the "legalisation" of these hardcore narcotics without medical supervision is bluntly absurd. 

Lets C Winnipeg news for 2015, Apr., Aug., 2016, concerning the Fentanyl epidemic, known as the killer High. The label, definition of “recreational use” is slightly misleading if one considers the potency of these narcotics. Street pushers use Fentanly when cutting heroin or other drugs, just like a distiller dilutes alcohol % count with a water distiller, making more money from the batch. Fentanly is also known as the poor man’s drug, easily obtained and mixed with other narcotics, etc.……Per Say, smoking a joint is not high enough; I’ll recreationally use Fentanyl and see if I can reach the moon.


Cocaine 'contaminated' with fentanyl suspected in Winnipeg overdose death..
Police are still waiting on toxicology reports, but they suspect that a death over the weekend, and another serious but non-lethal overdose, happened after two men consumed cocaine that may have been contaminated with fentanyl. 'It's the great imposter: it can be obtained much more cheaply than heroin.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/cocaine-contaminated-with-fentanyl-suspected-in-winnipeg-overdose-death-1.3193628

A Killer High: How Canada got addicted to fentanyl.
It’s as easy as ordering a book online: Sign up for an account, choose a method of payment, and receive the package in three to four business days.

But first, there are some choices to make. The fentanyl hydrochloride comes in a variety of quantities, ranging from a half-gram sample for $35 (U.S) to a kilogram for $21,000. It also comes in different strengths – purchasers are warned to “be careful” and do their research on the product, described as 99-per-cent pure. And of course, there are the related pharmaceutical products: the fentanyl patches, tablets and even lollipops.

Buyers are assured their package won’t get seized at the Canadian border. To avoid the risk of detection, says a supplier from China, he conceals the purchase alongside urine test strips. Not that there’s reason to worry: Canadian border guards cannot open packages weighing less than 30 grams without the consent of the recipient. (A Globe and Mail reporter corresponded with sellers and suppliers using a pseudonym and did not disclose himself as a journalist, in order to obtain accurate information from the seller.)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/investigations/a-killer-high-how-canada-got-addicted-tofentanyl/article29570025/


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/heroin-epidemic-buries-midwest-329629821.html


C.U.

Sorry for all the edits my eyes are watering, etc.
 
medicineman said:
On the bright side, I know I'll have a job for a few more years...if you want to legalize things, you should probably come see what things are like in ER's with stuff that is in fact already legal, forget the stuff that isn't.

:2c:

MM

You an' me both, brother!
 
18 Nov. 2016

Winnipeg Firefighter / Paramedic had to receive emergency treatment after he was possibly exposed to fentanyl on a call.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/firefighter-paramedic-treated-with-opioid-antidote-after-exposure-to-suspected-fentanyl-1.3856239
"... a possible fentanyl overdose in a home when he started having trouble with his throat."
 
[quote author=Chispa]
But first, there are some choices to make. The fentanyl hydrochloride comes in a variety of quantities, ranging from a half-gram sample for $35 (U.S) to a kilogram for $21,000. [/QUOTE]
Paying for shipping on only $35 seems almost criminal.  Best to lean towards the 20G's I say.

  purchasers are warned to “be careful”
Say what you want,  these people care about their consumers.


 
mariomike said:
18 Nov. 2016

Winnipeg Firefighter / Paramedic had to receive emergency treatment after he was possibly exposed to fentanyl on a call.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/firefighter-paramedic-treated-with-opioid-antidote-after-exposure-to-suspected-fentanyl-1.3856239
"... a possible fentanyl overdose in a home when he started having trouble with his throat."

Recreational drug use hurts more than the user?  Who would have thought.
 
medicineman said:
They fall into the abuse/borderline addict category, and cause no end of grief in the ER...these are the asshats that try drinking their pub dry and then have the snot beat out of them on YouTube for the world to blame the police on, go drive home and kill a few people or go home an abuse their spouses or renders themselves unconscious and aspirates their vomit; the clown that snorts some coke and shows up with chest pain with/without a full blown heart attack all while bouncing off the walls; the kid that went to a rave and didn't realize they shouldn't mix and match Ecstasy and what ever they're usually taking and now have serotonin syndrome and we're trying to keep their brains from melting; the teenager that gets into her granny's fentanyl patches she has for terminal cancer, extracts and shoots a 3 day dose into herself and we're now fighting to keep them breathing and not brain damaged.  I've left out the clowns that don't get a buzz after eating their weed, so take a lot more and then are gibbled up, or the potheads that show up with cyclic vomiting syndrome, the twit that does a meth/LSD combo and is totally paranoid/psychotic and thinks that everyone trying to help them are big purple elephant finger puppets.

I have of course left out the actual addicts - the ones that manage to eat 2 months worth of Percocet in a week and now think we owe them a refill and then get abusive when we politely and then impolitely tell them to phuque off; the mountains of tobacco addicts that clog our beds with COPD exacerbations, heart attacks, strokes and blood vessel disease; the fast/greasy/carb rich food addicts without an exercise addiction, that show up with new diabetes, heart attacks, strokes and liver/gallbladder disease; the other bone idle folks that sit around all day and show up with blood clots in their legs/lungs; the alcoholic with DT's, cirrhotic liver disease or a massive GI bleed; more potheads with cyclic vomiting; the little kids that show up for CFS checkups because their parents were too stoned or drunk (or both) to look after them.  I'm also kind of expecting a run of what I call "new COPD" from folks that smoke a pile of weed a day with unfiltered joints/bongs - funny how when I ask if someone smokes, most potheads will say no until I ask about cannabis use...oh yeah, 1/4-full pack day equivalent (for more than a few I might add)...and they can't figure out why they're having breathing issues.

Those are all great anecdotes if we were discussing whether or not drugs are good for your health. I don't see anybody debating that they are.

Chispa said:
Medicineman comments are indicative on what I heard from individuals working in hospitals ERs, walking clinics, or drug centers. IMO; the "legalisation" of these hardcore narcotics without medical supervision is bluntly absurd. 

Sorry, I fail to see where in his posts he points to how making these drugs illegal has lessened the workload he has in the ER.... if anything the anecdotes from our medical professionals support that prohibition doesn't work...

medicineman said:
On the bright side, I know I'll have a job for a few more years...if you want to legalize things, you should probably come see what things are like in ER's with stuff that is in fact already legal, forget the stuff that isn't.

You, like many others, are making the assumption that legalizing narcotics would cause more people to start doing drugs and therefore create more situations like you mentioned in the ER. So far, no one has supported this assumption, and a bit of logical discussion on the matter quickly makes one realize that in fact, prohibiting them has caused us to be where we are today... an OD epidemic.

Tugging on heartstrings is not evidence of anything except that drugs are bad for you, which I never debated. If I come visit the ER and see someone OD'ing on crack or crystal meth, my response is going to be "Looks like we should have legalized cocaine." So you can tone down on the self-righteousness.

It's no different than the Canadian Medical Association coming out in favour of the long-gun registry. Whoop-di-diddly-do, no crap firearms cause injuries that medical staff have to treat, I don't need a doctor to tell me that. That is not convincing evidence (or evidence at all) that the long-gun registry was actually reducing firearm-related injuries. It's just a bunch of self-righteous pricks that haven't put any critical thought into it and are just purporting "guns are bad."
 
I thought reading into the whole Portugal drug thing they found evidence that there was an increase in drug use.  When I get to a laptop I'll do some fact checking.
 
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