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2 men hack soldier to death in UK, are then shot and wounded by police

Jacky Tar

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2 Cdo said:
Seriously? Did you even listen to his little speech?  ::)

I did. He struck me as a moron and a sociopath, not a true believer. Even if he was, I'd consider him no more than a common criminal, just like any other terrorist. So far as I can tell, the chief difference between terrorists and pretty much all other murderers is that the former try to justify their killings by some twisted claim to a moral high ground that exists only in their imaginations and/or painting themselves as somehow being the victim of the piece.
 

Jarnhamar

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Jacky Tar said:
On the subject of recording it, I don't see why it should be illegal. In fact, in this case those recordings will likely be Crown evidence, which shout make it pretty much open-and-shut. Uploading them to Youtube or other video hosting sites I'd say was in poor taste, perhaps. But illegal? Why? Freedom of expression shouldn't be predicated on good taste or lack thereof.
But  how about women being raped and the recording of it posted on youtube? Or how about a child being raped and uploaded. That's illegal, why should someone being murdered and the record of it uploaded simply be bad taste but assaulting a child illegal.

In this instance the offenders specifically wanted to be recorded in order to get maximum publicity. They're committing a crime not protesting. 
Eye witnesses, bloody knives and a dead body should be enough evidence to be open and shut IMO.
 

2 Cdo

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Jacky Tar said:
I did. He struck me as a moron and a sociopath, not a true believer. Even if he was, I'd consider him no more than a common criminal, just like any other terrorist. So far as I can tell, the chief difference between terrorists and pretty much all other murderers is that the former try to justify their killings by some twisted claim to a moral high ground that exists only in their imaginations and/or painting themselves as somehow being the victim of the piece.

That's where we differ. He struck me as a 100% committed believer.
 

George Wallace

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Jacky Tar said:
I did. He struck me as a moron and a sociopath, not a true believer. Even if he was, I'd consider him no more than a common criminal, just like any other terrorist. So far as I can tell, the chief difference between terrorists and pretty much all other murderers is that the former try to justify their killings by some twisted claim to a moral high ground that exists only in their imaginations and/or painting themselves as somehow being the victim of the piece.

If you want, you can apologize for this guy and say what you did; but he was known to Police.  The fact that they did not consider him a serious enough threat to warrant more observation just indicates the complexity of radical Islamic teachings.  They are very subtle in their conversion methods.  Witness what was happening in the documentary My Brother the Islamist and you can see the subtleness in their conversion towards radical forms of Islam. 

The man may have been a "moron and a sociopath", but in many cases, is that not what these organizations like to recruit?  Even though he may have been a "moron and a sociopath", he was towing the "party line" and a puppet to their agenda.  Don't apologize for him.  He did what he honestly, if faultily, believed in.
 

George Wallace

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ObedientiaZelum said:
But  how about women being raped and the recording of it posted on youtube? Or how about a child being raped and uploaded. That's illegal, why should someone being murdered and the record of it uploaded simply be bad taste but assaulting a child illegal.

In this instance the offenders specifically wanted to be recorded in order to get maximum publicity. They're committing a crime not protesting. 
Eye witnesses, bloody knives and a dead body should be enough evidence to be open and shut IMO.

Two completely different things.

They did not record  and publish the murder.  What is online is a dead body in the street, two idiots rushing armed police, etc.  Often this is exactly, and was exactly, what you watch on the news.  Women being raped, children being raped, etc. are not scenarios that make it to the Evening News.  Periodically, censored versions may make it into documentaries.

What we saw here, was real time (or close to it) news being reported.  Yes, news releases and events are found on YouTube.  The media is evolving.  Newspapers are taking to presenting videos online.  The outrage of this event was felt around the world in minutes. 
 

Jacky Tar

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George Wallace said:
If you want, you can apologize for this guy and say what you did; but he was known to Police.  The fact that they did not consider him a serious enough threat to warrant more observation just indicates the complexity of radical Islamic teachings.  They are very subtle in their conversion methods.  Witness what was happening in the documentary My Brother the Islamist and you can see the subtleness in their conversion towards radical forms of Islam. 

The man may have been a "moron and a sociopath", but in many cases, is that not what these organizations like to recruit?  Even though he may have been a "moron and a sociopath", he was towing the "party line" and a puppet to their agenda.  Don't apologize for him.  He did what he honestly, if faultily, believed in.

I'm not sure how what I said can be taken as 'apologizing' for either of these two clowns, but in case I was less than clear, in no way whatsoever do I support, defend, apologize for, attempt to mitigate, lessen, reduce or otherwise absolve them of even so much as a shred of guilt. They are both murderers through and through and though they will likely be housed at Crown expense for the remainder of their natural lives, I consider that far too good an end for them. I need to do some research to see if Britain still applies the death penalty because in my opinion their crime merits no less.

All I doubt is the sincerity and honesty of their professed 'reason', if it can be dignified by such a name. Perhaps I am unduly cynical, but I tend to view with grave suspicion the sincerity of any claim upon God, Allah, Yaweh or whatever other name as grounds to commit such acts. The colour of faith has far too often be claimed by charlatans for me to give credence to this pair's stated reason.

At any rate, I see that I am now verging on thread-jacking myself, if not well over the line, so I'd better leave it.
 
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jollyjacktar

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The suspect for the copycat attack in France has been arrested.  Shared under the provisions of Sec 29 of the copyright act.

Known Islamic extremist is arrested over attempted murder of French soldier in 'Woolwich copycat attack'
Unnamed 22-year-old's home was raided by anti-terror police this morning
Suspect has been hitherto known only for 'minor acts of delinquency'
Victim Cedric Cordiez was discharged from hospital on Monday
He was slashed in his neck and throat last Saturday in La Defense, Paris

By Peter Allen
PUBLISHED: 07:52 GMT, 29 May 2013 | UPDATED: 08:49 GMT, 29 May 2013

A known radical Islamist was today arrested on suspicion of attempting to murder a French soldier.  The home of the 22-year-old, who has not been named, was raided by armed anti-terrorist police in La Verriere, a commuter town near Versailles, in the early hours of the morning.  Images of him are thought to have been caught on CCTV around the time of Saturday’s attack in Paris's La Defense business district.  It saw Cedric Cordiez, a 23-year-old soldier, receiving wounds to the throat and neck as a man plunged a sharp instrument into him.

The French ambush happened just three days after British soldier Lee Rigby was allegedly hacked to death by two Islamists near Woolwich barracks in south London – prompting fears of a copycat attack.  Manuel Valls, France’s interior minister, said the Paris ambush appeared to be an ‘act of terrorism’ and today he praised his security forces for the swift arrest.  Mr Valls said everything would be done to establish the ‘course, the environment and the motivation of this young man’.

A source close to the investigation told Le Parisien newspaper that the man was a follower of a ‘traditionalist’ form of Islam, who had been a ‘radical [for] three or four years’.
The aim of the enquiry was to establish ‘at what moment he had taken on a Jihadist project’. Until now, the suspect has only been known for ‘minor acts of delinquency’, notably minor thefts.

Mr Cordiez was released from hospital on Monday but was still ‘traumatised’ by the ambush, which happened while he was on an anti-terrorist patrol.  Detectives confirmed that there were ‘high quality images’ of a ‘tall, athletic bearded man’ of  North African origin praying near the crime scene.  They also conducted DNA tests after finding a bag near the crime scene with a box cutter, and a sheath for a second knife.

Mr Cordiez’s girlfriend said he was in a state of shock and bolted upright in his hospital bed when a nurse came in during the night, convinced it was his attacker ‘come to finish the job’.  France has been on high alert for attacks by Islamist militants since its military intervention against Islamist rebels in Mali in January, which prompted threats from AQIM, the North African wing of al Qaeda.  The latest warning was published on YouTube a few weeks before gunmen this week attacked a military base and a French uranium extraction site in the central African state of Niger, killing 24 soldiers and one civilian.

Last year Mohammed Merah, a 23-year-old French-Algerian Islamist, murdered three French soldiers near the south west city of Toulouse.  He carried out a killing spree which also claimed the lives of four civilians.  Merah was brought up on the same kind of immigrant housing estate as the one where this morning’s arrest was carried out.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2332541/Paris-soldier-stabbing-Known-Islamic-extremist-arrested-Woolwich-copycat-attack.html#ixzz2Ufz0JFng
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kevincanada

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Hmm.  Just saw the speech of the murderer posted by the dailymail in this thread.  Interesting to note that the video has been highly cropped.  The version I saw was longer with more detail at least a minute long with him saying a lot more and citing extremist verses as part of his justification.  He went on a rant about fighting in the name of Allah in the full version then cites his reasoning beyond blaming British troops/government.  It was a news site that posted the full version.  Wish I can remember which one.  :(
 

The Bread Guy

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An autopsy shows that a British soldier killed in a suspected Islamic extremist attack in London last week died from multiple cuts and stab wounds after he was hit by a car, police said Wednesday.

Lee Rigby, 25, was first struck by a blue car and then stabbed by two men near his barracks in southeast London's Woolwich district, police said.

Images that emerged in the attack's aftermath showed two men wielding bloody knives and meat cleavers. Police said the autopsy showed Rigby died from "multiple incised wounds."

Both prime suspects were shot and wounded by police at the scene. Suspect Michael Adebolajo, 28, remains hospitalized in stable condition while Michael Adebowale, 22, was discharged from a hospital Tuesday and is in police custody.

A total of 10 people have been arrested in the case, including the two main suspects. Two people were released and several others have been set free on bail pending further inquiries. No charges have been filed yet.

With the cause of death established, police said an inquest on Rigby's death will open Friday at Southwark Coroner's Court. In Britain, inquests are conducted to establish the circumstances surrounding unexpected or violent deaths ....
The Canadian Press, 29 May 13
 
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jollyjacktar

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Damn, I was really hoping that the car was enough to take him out of it before the animals started in on him. 
 

PanaEng

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2 Cdo said:
The only connection?  :eek:

It was the number one reason they did this. Pretending it isn't is just plain dishonest.

BTW thanks for the neg mil points.
Similar to blaming Christianity for the Westborough Baptist church protesting at soldiers funerals... (there are many other current examples but I'm too lazy at the moment to look them up)
but definitely, Islam has a far bigger share of extreme extremists "guided" by their religious beliefs .
 

old fart

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jollyjacktar said:
Damn, I was really hoping that the car was enough to take him out of it before the animals started in on him.

I was thinking the same way...and then some.

I have walked those streets....stayed at the barracks...been to what was the military hospital that used to be nearby...the QEMH....(called a Matron Maj Nurse, Sir)....prior  to being escorted off the premises into the arms of the MPs....a tad underweather.....Boxing injury!

But what I really want to say, is what manner of Wanker bystander(s), stands by and does not take those tossers on....

RIP soldier.....



 

OldSolduer

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old fart said:
But what I really want to say, is what manner of Wanker bystander(s), stands by and does not take those tossers on....

RIP soldier.....

I don't know about the UK, but here in North America we have been conditioned to steer clear of confronting anyone lest some poor soul be hurt.
Law Enforcement officials constantly tell the public if they are victims of crime, be  passive. Give  the criminals what they want and then phone the police.

Jusges every so often will judge in favor of a criminal, who while committing a criminal act, be injured. The criminal sues and wins.

It's no wonder the sheep stood and watched.
 

rmc_wannabe

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old fart said:
But what I really want to say, is what manner of Wanker bystander(s), stands by and does not take those tossers on....

Not everyone is trained in unarmed combat, let alone could react in a manner sufficient to subdue 2 large, armed men visciously attacking a soldier.

I find a lot of us put on our Army goggles on when something tragic and senseless like this happens and ask "Why didn't anyone stop them? Why didn't anyone fight back?"

Simple answer: People were too scared to react.
 

OldSolduer

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rmc_wannabe said:
Not everyone is trained in unarmed combat, let alone could react in a manner sufficient to subdue 2 large, armed men visciously attacking a soldier.

Simple answer: People were too scared to react.

Yes I will grant you that.

 

Sythen

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Jim Seggie said:
I don't know about the UK, but here in North America we have been conditioned to steer clear of confronting anyone lest some poor soul be hurt.
Law Enforcement officials constantly tell the public if they are victims of crime, passively resist. Give the criminals what they want and then phone the police.

Jusges every so often will judge in favor of a criminal, who while committing a criminal act, be injured. The criminal sues and wins.

It's no wonder the sheep stood and watched.

Also, there is the Bystander Effect.
 

brianl1734

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This is just so sad... So many sick people out there. I feel very sorry for his family and friends...
 

cupper

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old fart said:
There is also big white truck effect if that's what you need....

How does that come into play for this?

Unless we have different understandings of the Big White Truck Effect.
 
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jollyjacktar

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Good things can and do happen in prison it seems.  ;D

BREAKING NEWS: Woolwich murder suspect Michael Adebolajo 'attacked in prison'

By Amanda Williams

PUBLISHED: 17:18 GMT, 18 July 2013 | UPDATED: 18:27 GMT, 18 July 2013

Terror suspect Michael Adebolajo, one of the men accused of murdering Drummer Lee Rigby in Woolwich, is believed to have been attacked in prison.

Reports claim the 28-year-old, of Romford in Essex, was set upon at HMP Belmarsh in south east London yesterday.

Reports say he has had two teeth knocked out in the attack.

The Ministry of Justice has confirmed an investigation is underway but has refused to comment further.

A Prison Service spokesperson said: 'The police are investigating an incident that took place at HMP Belmarsh on July 17.

'It would be inappropriate to comment while the investigation was ongoing.'

The pair are expected to stand trial on November 18.

Following the attack, thousands of people paid their respects at the scene of Fusilier Rigby's death.

But despite pleas from police and the soldier's family for his death not to be used for political gain, there have also been several clashes between rival protesters.

Last week a full military funeral for Fusilier Rigby was attended by 800 mourners.

David Cameron, who said the whole country would be mourning with Fusilier Rigby’s family, attended the funeral with London Mayor Boris Johnson.

The 45-minute service began with a two-minute silence in honour of the soldier, who served in the 2nd Battalion Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2369177/BREAKING-NEWS-Woolwich-murder-suspect-Michael-Adebolajo-attacked-prison.html#ixzz2ZR6L3zzw
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