Muslim girls allowed private swim test

[Brat56]

Trinity: Exactly, "If it's not hurting anyone" Just let the same induldgence be show to the overweight student, burn victim or any other person who needs the privacy for whatever reason.
As for bowing, I feel as a Canadian "born & bred, that yes I have had to bow and change things to accomodate "new people to Canada".
When my kids were young and in school Ontario Public Board System, they were told at a very early age that they could no longer have a Christmas Progra, due to the fact there were so many other cultures in the system that no one was to be offended. They were also told NOT to say Merry Christmas instead Happy Holidays was the greeting most appropriate, AGAIN don't want anyone to be offended.
Unless, you are in the Catholic School Board System, the Lords Prayer is banned...just not right IMO.
Thats what I meant/mean by "bowing.

I grew up living on various bases and attending schools on those bases. The Lords Prayer was said EVERY day...if there was someone from a different belief (Jewish would have been the only one) they simply got up and left the class for that few moments or just sayed and bowed their head as we did.

I just have such a hard time with all the things we have had to change and you know when we go to a Muslim country, we have to conform to the way of their culture.

Had my rant...p.s as long as they only pee once in the pool! 8)

 

[The_Falcon]

If you recall a while back, there were women in Toronto (I believe) that were fighting for their right to wear the Burka in their liscence photos. Now that the hutterites have won a victory, why should these women be excluded. If you open up the can of worms..... and then when we start having security issues down the road with these "no picture" drivers liscences, does anyone think the courts will backtrack?

this was brought up, when I did ID training for my security job at the casino I work at.  The consultant who ran the training, made mention of the fact that muslim women have to show their face for their passport picture even in countries like Saudia Arabia. If they can show their face for a passport in their home country, they can certainly show their face on i.d. here.

 

[aluc]

I certainly agree with George Wallace . Our former Liberal government had put too much emphasis on appeasing almost any lobby/special interest group that has come along,  looking to take advantage of a government that would help anyone in order to garner votes and maintain power - IMO. Yet, I voted for them in the last two elections! :-[  Please forgive me...I have sinned!

 

[Hot Lips]

Wes,

I am in total agreement with you. 
We used to say the Lord's Prayer in school and sing Oh Canada and God Save the Queen...do we now?
Have we given up our values to be accommodating? 
Where does it all stop and how will everyone be happy?

HL

 

[1feral1]

Hey Margaret,

If ya lived local, I'd buy ya a XXXX Gold and a vegemite sanger!

I know exactly where you are coming from.


Cold beers,

Wes

 

[paracowboy]

I will state here, openly, for the record, that I am a prejudiced person. I realize now, that I’ve always been prejudiced.

I am prejudiced against asshats.

Asshats come in all shapes, sizes, races, genders, sexual orientations, colours and religious backgrounds. Bottom line? If they’re an asshat, I don’t like 'em. I am anti-asshat. Fervently so.

Now, you can’t say all Arabs, or Muslims, are asshats. Why? Because not all Arabs are asshats. Not all Muslims are terrorists, just as not all Canadians are asshats. Were the people that destroyed the World Trade Centres Arabs? Yes. Were they asshats? Yes. Is the Arab guy across town that owns the dry cleaners (and gives me a discount on all my Army stuff) an asshat? No. There are good Muslims and there are bad Muslims just like there are good Baptists and bad Baptists, good Buddhists and bad Buddhists.

Canada is more of a melting pot (oooooohhhh, he said “melting pot” instead of “cultural mosaic!”) today than ever before. People from many different countries have come here. They have chose to live here. Chose to become Canadian citizens. I consider that an honour. I am proud to have a country that people choose to come to and live in. I stand behind always knowing where you came from and what your heritage is. If your family came from Russia, Sweden, Africa, China, wherever, you should always be proud of that. You should know your personal history. You can’t know where you’re going, unless you know where you came from. Something I’m not keen about is the isolation factor of the ‘hyphenated Canadian.’ To me that is a dividing wedge that shouldn’t be hammered into a country that needs to unite not divide. It borders on the same vein as racism.

And that is where things like this are leading. Either everybody is equal, or nobody is. And we are fast approaching the point where everybody with some sort of hyphen in front of "Canadian" demands some sort of privilige, and calling it a Right. There is a distinct difference. Liberty is not License.

We are on a slippery slope that could soon cause more problems than the original one was, in the first place.

 

[Zertz]

Wes,

I am in total agreement with you. 
We used to say the Lord's Prayer in school and sing Oh Canada and God Save the Queen...do we now?
Have we given up our values to be accommodating? 
Where does it all stop and how will everyone be happy?

HL

There's got to me some happy medium, I remember elementary school and singing of O Canada, it is sorely missed by me and a few of my more politically active friends. I've always been a fan of the 'opt out' option to things like the Lord's Prayer and God Save the Queen.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I see no problem in making reasonable accommodations for people of different faiths.  Besides, is it only Muslim Girls allowed to swim at that time or are all girls allowed to swim?  I though that was how things were done anyways. Believe it or not I grew up in Red Deer Alberta and when I was a kid there was boy’s swim time and girls swim time, during the girls swim time the blinds were drawn. That was when I was in grade 5.  It struck me as odd at the time so I asked why we were separated out,  we could have 2 hours together instead on one hour each.  I was told “Some of the girls feel more comfortable if boys don’t watch them in their swimsuits”. I understood.  Funny how respect is something that can easily be explained to a child.  Diversity can be a strength.  I live downtown Toronto now and I'm getting lots of help learning Dari from my friends. Now if I ever get to go over there, I'll be allot more usefull than if I just picked up a phrasebook.

 

[Hot Lips]

I disagree Zell_Dietrich...and I have the right too...the problem is in this country, that we make allowances for everyone else's faith but the faith of Canadian Christians who were here for decades...

Roman Catholics are supposed to rest on Sunday...do you see any employer in this country making sure that happens, not...do you see RCs in public schools reciting the Lord's Prayer daily...not...because it offends others...

The point is...if you are going to make allowances for one faith then you best be prepared to make them for all faiths

HL

 

[couchcommander]

It is a very slippery slope. Would they have done the same if it was a group of boys that did not want to swim with girls, or if it was a disfigured person? What will they now do if, and I'm not saying that this has happened, just that it might, a pupil decided that his or her religion prevented him or her from associating with another individual at all?

Will they segregate the classroom? Probably not, but then why are these girls more entitled to their beliefs than others?

Overall I am a firm believer that public institutions should not differentiate between people due to ethnicity, faith, belief, sex, or sexual orientation (except for the most obvious cases, ie male and female washroom's - but in the end I wouldn't have a problem with one washroom as long as each person's privacy was ensured). The standards should be set compassionately and humanely considering needs and feelings of those involved - but should be universal and unwavering for those categories.

Anyone who is unwilling to accept them would be graciously permitted to find a nonpublic institution that suits their particular biases.

re: these girls - why didn't they just use a full body wetsuit or put on a t-shirt and shorts overtop of their bathing suit?

Hrm... I think my religion demands that the government pay for everything, including vacations to Mexico twice a year.

(*edit* you know guys, if we get enough people on board, we could actually register it and sue....)

re: the photo's... *shakes head*  Whoever said it was right, how is the person at a liquor depot supposed to tell who's who? He could just refuse to serve them, but then would most likely face a lawsuit for religious discrimination.

re: the Lord's Prayer - come on guys, public institutions can't endorse one religion over another. I know you're thinking "well, you could just opt out", but lets say you lived santanville where everybody said a prayer to the devil in morning - wouldn't feel so great being the only kid sitting there twiddling your thumbs would you? Might even say the prayer so not be different from all of your friends?

IMO if people want to be given time for personal observances when school starts, that's fine, but each should be allowed their own personal observance of whatever they choose (be it Christ, Buddha, or Spong Bob Square Pants) without feeling pressure, real or imagined, from persons of authority, ie teachers.

My .02.

 

[Trinity]

Roman Catholics are supposed to rest on Sunday...do you see any employer in this country making sure that happens,

That's funny, because I don't see any RC's complaining about working on the sabbath. Its not that people are walking over the Christian faith, its simply
that Christians don't take their faith to the same degree as Muslims.

You might say that's a broad paint brush.. well, take the Mormons.  They will not work on the Sunday with the exceptions of police, fire etc...
I know a lot of Mormons and the ones I know will not take a job if it requires them to work on Sunday.  I'm sure many employers would be happy to accommodate
out people's religious faiths.

I've met more than enough "Christians" in name only.  Its hard to be offended when very few people take their own religion that seriously.

 

[043]

The only thing I have to say is.........no comment!!!!!!!!

 

[Northern Touch]

I disagree.  What makes those 3 Muslim girls any different from the other hundred girls in the school, other then religion, which is supposed to be kept OUT of the school system?  If they can close the school pool to give private lessons to students, then ALL students should have the chance to recieve private lessons in the school, regardless of race, gender, religion.  Its simple segregation because of religious beliefs, not integration.

As far as I'm concerned, if there is a swim test requirement, the people who have problems with it (because of any reason) should be the ones to change in order to accomodate the school requirement, not the school accomodating them.  In this country, we have no problem what so ever with boys and girls swimming in the same water, or seeing someone of the other sex wearing a bathing suit, if anyobdy of any religion can't accept this, it should not be this country or its policy or its school accomadations that should be changing, it is the person with the problem that should be trying to adapt and integrate into society.

When my family lived in Saudi Arabia, my mom had to go out in public covered from head to toe, as was common practice in their society.  Think they cared that she was a Roman Catholic?  NOPE.  She changed for the society, the society didn't change for her.

 

[Trinity]

As far as I'm concerned, if there is a swim test requirement, the people who have problems with it (because of any reason) should be the ones to change in order to accommodate the school requirement, not the school accommodating them.

The requirement is to swim.  The requirement isn't to swim with a mixed gender of people.  There is no change in the
requirement, just a request to do it separately.

When my family lived in Saudi Arabia, my mom had to go out in public covered from head to toe, as was common practice in their society.  Think they cared that she was a Roman Catholic?  NOPE.  She changed for the society, the society didn't change for her.

I would take it that this would be the difference between a country which is run on religious beliefs
vs ours, run on secular beliefs with religion having no play in our countries laws  (for the most part these days)


What bothers me is many people are saying assimilate or go home.  These people were born here, some many generations
back.  They are home. 

We make huge exceptions for the catholics i.e. "the catholic school boards" getting separately funded from the public
school system.  You can't tell me that's not a big deal, provinces funding religious based schools?

 

[Northern Touch]

The requirement is to swim.  The requirement isn't to swim with a mixed gender of people.  There is no change in the
requirement, just a request to do it separately. 

In that case, the school should give EVERY child the opporitunity to take the test alone, not just those specific students that can claim conflicting religious beliefs.  I would be curious to know if (as an example) an obese child requested to swim alone because they felt uncomfortable infront of other students, would be allowed?

What bothers me is many people are saying assimilate or go home.  These people were born here, some many generations
back.  They are home. 

I agree that assimilate or go home is not an appropriate attitude, but I think it tends to stem from frustration.  We seem (Canadian government on a whole) to have a tendency to try and bend policy for the little guy (a minority group) while assuming that the majority doesn't care or won't be offended.  My disagreement is not solely that 3 Muslim girls got to swim seperatly because of their religion, it's the fact that not EVERY student in the school was given that chance.  If you had a daughter at that school, would you not want them to have the same opporitunity, and is not giving her that opporitunity because she wasn't Muslim fair? 

I will be the first to admit that a school swim test is a very small example to get up in arms about, but each case sets a precendent for cases to follow.  How will we as a society be able to draw the line between a real religious claim and using and abusing the claim of religion?

We make huge exceptions for the catholics i.e. "the catholic school boards" getting separately funded from the public
school system.  You can't tell me that's not a big deal, provinces funding religious based schools?

The provinces have always been funding Catholic schools because when schools were being built, (many many years ago) the great majority of people were Catholic and went to Catholic school.  If the majority of students attended a school why wouldn't they fund it?  It wasn't as if the provinces woke up one day and said "maybe we should fund only Catholic schools today."  Also, I could be corrected but I don't think its all the provinces that fund Catholic schools.

 

[Trinity]

The provinces have always been funding Catholic schools because when schools were being built, (many many years ago) the great majority of people were Catholic and went to Catholic school.  If the majority of students attended a school why wouldn't they fund it?  It wasn't as if the provinces woke up one day and said "maybe we should fund only Catholic schools today."  Also, I could be corrected but I don't think its all the provinces that fund Catholic schools.

No, quite true...

but it seems like its a "what have you done for me lately" kind of thing.

Catholics have been more than catered to over the years and as their population dwindles and other groups emerge
it must be frustrating to see others get attention/benefits and they don't.  But, they must remember, they're still
getting or have gotten a lot in the past.

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

I disagree Zell_Dietrich...and I have the right too...the problem is in this country, that we make allowances for everyone else's faith but the faith of Canadian Christians who were here for decades...

Roman Catholics are supposed to rest on Sunday...do you see any employer in this country making sure that happens, not...do you see RCs in public schools reciting the Lord's Prayer daily...not...because it offends others...

The point is...if you are going to make allowances for one faith then you best be prepared to make them for all faiths

HL

Did I imply otherwise?    I think I understand where you are coming from.  And I'm sure one could find situations where Christians felt uncomfortable because of a public institution.  You're right,  if we make reasonable allowances for one group, lets make reasonable accommodations for all groups... oh wait that would spin out of controll,  just imagine it... a country where people feel respected and free to be themselves.  A country where we treat eachother with respect and understand that when we show others respect we don't diminish ourselves.  What a crazy idea ( )

These people that we're talking about,  they're not some strange foreign thing that has come here and we 'tolerate' for some reason.  They are people, Canadians - our people,  who have allot to offer this country. Who work hard and make our lives better through their efforts.  If they want to have a little privacy when they swim because they feel it is indecent or if they need to take 30 minutes Friday afternoon to pray I say whatever,  I take two weeks off for Christmas and all I do is shop and eat.

At my school there are three separate inter faith prayer areas,  students go to them as their faith requires, or as they want.  I know this because I was in one of them practicing my Arabic when a fellow student asked me if I knew which way was north. (until then I just thought they were comfy rooms, like student lounges, but it explained why my Syrian friend was waiting in it.)  If Christan's want to have the ability to go someplace quiet and pray during school,  I thought they were allowed to do so. 

I know this is a charged topic,  but really,  if we look at it through a cold logical "Cost vs Benefit" stance we can see "what does it cost us" against "how much better do they feel,  how much does the community as a whole improve"

Personally I only really pray when a streetcar is about to hit me - I should change that.... or stop J-walking. I think my mom would be happy if I did both.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Hmm.

I think there is too much "accomadating" going on in Canada...to the point where we are loosing our identity and having to change OUR way of life. 

One standard.  I don't think they should be given a special timing.  What if I ask for one for myself only?  Do I get it?  Nope.

One standard. 

I wonder, let's go to a country that is predominatly Muslim and see how "accomodating" they will be a Canadian Christians and OUR freedom to live the way WE want to.

I agree with Wes's comments, and +1 on the "assimilate or leave" stuff.

They have taken away singing of O Canada, the Lord's prayer, jesus we are supposed to call it a Holiday Tree not a Christmas Tree.

You want your own beach for Muslim women to swim in, or your own pool?  Good.  Go buy one.  I think there are some for sale, not not around me.  These ones are for ALL Canadians, all the time.

Don't like it?  Leave.

 

[Trinity]

Hmm.

I think there is too much "accomadating" going on in Canada...to the point where we are loosing our identity and having to change OUR way of life. 

How does letting these 3 girls swim on their own affect YOUR way of life?  It doesn't.

One standard.  I don't think they should be given a special timing.  What if I ask for one for myself only?  Do I get it?  Nope.

Of course not.  You have no belief or reason to ask.  If you were horribly mutated or had scars or something and didn't want to
swim with other, I bet they WOULD give you a separate test.

I wonder, let's go to a country that is predominatly Muslim and see how "accomodating" they will be a Canadian Christians and OUR freedom to live the way WE want to.
I agree with Wes's comments, and +1 on the "assimilate or leave" stuff.

http://lois.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html

  2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

    a) freedom of conscience and religion;

They have taken away singing of O Canada, the Lord's prayer, jesus we are supposed to call it a Holiday Tree not a Christmas Tree.

WHO ARE THEY??  The Muslims took away singing of O Canada,  the Lords prayer, forced us to call it a Holiday Tree?

  These ones are for ALL Canadians, all the time.

Don't like it?  Leave.

They are Canadian.  You... sound more like a racist.



What you are upset with is the politically correct BS that is being thrown at us.  But this country
is geared to the white protestant and catholics.  Now that others want to exercise their beliefs
as GRANTED to them by the charter of rights and freedoms you want to squash them?  Right.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion.  Just as I am.

My opinion is different, so you feel the need to attack it?

Right.  I get it.  If my opinion isn't politically correct, then you are entitled to call me a racist.

Good for you!