York U Prof, takes a stand AGAINST religious sexism

[The_Falcon]

Saw an interesting comment somewhere - if you replace the word "women" with "black" would the university take the same stance?

The article mentions that the Professor in question actually had that argument in his rebuke to the school administration.

 

[George Wallace]

In the matter of George Wallace vs the Canadian Bar Association, I'm going with the Canadian Bar Association.

http://www.cbabc.org/For-the-Public/Dial-A-Law/Scripts/Your-Rights/232.aspx

Shall we invoke Ezra Levant into this debate?

 

[Lightguns]

Must be a major dilemma for left wingers, when one cause celeb conflicts with another cause celeb.  Being a group of people who often refuse to compromise, you would think their heads would explode trying to find middle ground. 

 

[Infanteer]

Shall we invoke Ezra Levant into this debate?

I'm not tracking your tangent.

Ezra Levant:

1.  Is a blowhard (even if he is right much of the time);

2.  dealt with the Alberta Human Rights Commission and was critical of the Canadian Human Rights Commission, which are derived from various pieces of federal and provincial legistlation, and not the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

 

[Danjanou]

Thank God that student doesn't want to associate with women.  It means he will not procreate.

Unfortunately that does not apply to the idiot Administrators at York U though..... odds are they may have already and therefore ensured another generation of this PC assualt on common sense.

 

[pbi]

This PC balancing act reminds me of  the dilemma faced by BBC Radio a few years ago, when one of its stations was running a show that featured Jamaican rap, some of it violently homophobic.

The gay community (as might be expected) took exception to the idea of a public broadcaster playing music that suggested that they should be burnt, killed, etc.

Now what to do?

Whose rights trumped whose? Which minority group was to be protected against the other?

I can't remember the outcome, but when we set out to please everybody we probably won't. Probably simpler to say that stupid, non-bona fide discrimination against any person's rights based on conditions they can't reasonably change won't be tolerated, nor will gross or ill-intended violations of cultural norms, nor incitement to criminal action.

Beyond that, it should probably be solved by reasonable discussion and debate.  This will inevitably lead to hurt feelings on somebody's part, but that is normally a typical by-product of principled behaviour. It is not your right not to be offended.

 

[a_majoor]

It is not your right not to be offended.

Ah, but the current norms of PC and the HRC Star Chambers DO affirm your "right" not to be offended. The fact that this is logically and practically impossible does not phase these people in the least.

In the real world of political correctness and moral relativism, there is a "moral" pecking order (mostly because these people do recognize that some groups will actually protest in the form of violent deeds rather than harsh words), so any white heterosexual mails who are practicing Christians can go to the end of the line, regardless of what their grievance or complaint is.

 

[George Wallace]

Ah, but the current norms of PC and the HRC Star Chambers DO affirm your "right" not to be offended. The fact that this is logically and practically impossible does not phase these people in the least.

......, so any white heterosexual mails who are practicing Christians can go to the end of the line, regardless of what their grievance or complaint is.

Crap!  Is this yet another reason that Canada Post wants to raise our postal rates, while cutting their services?  Now I will have to be careful as to what race, gender and religious category my correspondence goes out as.



>

 

[Infanteer]

Whose rights trumped whose? Which minority group was to be protected against the other?

How is a Jamaican radio program playing a rap song with lyrics talking about burning homosexuals a form of cultural expression requiring minority protection?

 

[The_Falcon]

Not going to quote the articles as they are both quite lengthty, but the plot thickens...apparently the university's logic in granting the request was, it wouldn't be discriminatory against the women in the class....so long as they never found out  :....and here I though York U was a great bastion and leader in the whole gender equity movements, proudly showing off their programs in those same areas....


http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/01/10/andrew-coyne-york-accomidation-and-quebec-values-charter-arent-opposites-in-fact-they-are-the-same/

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/01/10/national-post-editorial-board-rights-crusaders-run-amok-at-york-university/

 

[The Bread Guy]

Not going to quote the articles as they are both quite lengthty, but the plot thickens...apparently the university's logic in granting the request was, it wouldn't be discriminatory against the women in the class....so long as they never found out  :....and here I though York U was a great bastion and leader in the whole gender equity movements, proudly showing off their programs in those same areas....


http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/01/10/andrew-coyne-york-accomidation-and-quebec-values-charter-arent-opposites-in-fact-they-are-the-same/

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/01/10/national-post-editorial-board-rights-crusaders-run-amok-at-york-university/

Heard the VP of York on CBC Radio trying to say, "this is more about an accommodation of an online student who enrolled not expecting to have to meet other people."  Not so much answer to the interviewer's questions re:  "what if he'd asked to not be seated with Blacks/Jews/homosexuals?"

 

[The_Falcon]

Heard the VP of York on CBC Radio trying to say, "this is more about an accommodation of an online student who enrolled not expecting to have to meet other people."  Not so much answer to the interviewer's questions re:  "what if he'd asked to not be seated with Blacks/Jews/homosexuals?"

I wonder how long it will take someone to troll them, and ask to precisely do that.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I wonder how long it will take someone to troll them, and ask to precisely do that.

Sad, but too true .... 

 

[jeffb]

Satire alert!

Story available:
http://www.thebeaverton.com/national/item/1102-york-university-dean-supports-students-religious-right-to-aztec-human-sacrifice

York University Dean supports student’s religious right to Aztec human sacrifice

TORONTO - After permitting a student to be excused from course work on religious grounds so he would not have to publicly interact with female peers, the Dean of York University is also permitting another student to have the right to ritually murder people to appease his gods.

“We are legally obliged to heed to the student’s wishes of human sacrifice” said Dr. Martin Singer, Dean of the faculty of Arts and Science at the university. “This wouldn’t affect many students as the festival of Tlacaxipehualiztli only lasts 20 days to celebrate the spring equinox and sometimes occurs during reading week. Additionally, the student has assured me that obsidian blades are so sharp that you will barely feel them.”

 

[pbi]

How is a Jamaican radio program playing a rap song with lyrics talking about burning homosexuals a form of cultural expression requiring minority protection?

Stop that. Stop it-right-now. You mustn't bring up things like that.

 

[Edward Campbell]

OK, David Perkins, in the Globe and Mail understands the real issue:

Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/a-celebration-of-the-joyous-human-spirit/article16130567/#dashboard/follows/
Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail

 

[The_Falcon]

The Prof is firing back at the university http://www.torontosun.com/2014/01/13/york-university-prof-fires-back-over-religious-accommodation  Also nice to see, even the Liberal Education minister is backing the Prof

TORONTO - A York University professor is firing back after being ordered to accommodate a student who requested he not have to work with female peers due to his religious beliefs.

Sociology Prof. Paul Grayson will be distributing a letter to his York colleagues in response to a statement made by the school’s dean on Friday.

The school stated a request by one of Grayson’s students — who has yet to be identified — must be granted because of the university’s obligations under the Ontario Human Rights Code when it comes to religious accommodation.

“They’re trying to completely sidestep the whole issue of gender equality,” Grayson said Monday of the school’s response to the controversy.

Grayson argued that the decision made by York University Dean Martin Singer is a slap in the face to female students — the latter of whom, he maintained, also have rights to be treated equally.

But Singer’s letter to faculty laments media stories which he says “demonize York University and myself as dean.” He said Grayson’s refusal to accommodate the student was based on disapproval of the student’s beliefs.

“That disapproval of belief is precisely the way that discrimination on grounds of creed is defined,” he wrote.

The incident began in September when a student in one of Grayson’s online sociology classes e-mailed the veteran professor requesting not to attend an in-person project — a student-run focus group — because his beliefs dictate he not interact with women.

Grayson did not want to agree to the student’s request because of how it would make women in the class feel, and sent his reasoning to Singer. He was told he must accommodate the student the way he would one who was taking the course from far away.

The prof insisted the student was aware of the in-person component of the online course when he enrolled. He added the student accepted the professor’s decision when informed the request would not be accommodated.

Grayson said he believed the student may be Muslim or an Orthodox Jew.

University officials have not spoken with him about the issue, nor have they threatened any sanctions, he said.

“They’re probably upset but they’re not saying anything to me,” he said, noting that punishing him would be a bad decision since his freedom of speech is protected by the faculty’s collective bargaining agreement.

“That would be a kamikaze act on their part.”

Singer did not respond to a request for comment, but university president Mamdouh Shoukri issued a statement Monday, stressing the student in question never received the desired accommodation.

“Religious accommodation cannot be implemented at the expense of the infringement of the rights of others,” Shoukri said.

Training, Colleges and Universities Minister Brad Duguid said no post-secondary institution is required to heed student requests that run counter to gender equality.

“Let me be very clear ... that we hold the principle of gender equality to be sacrosanct in this province,” Duguid said Monday. “Certainly, my inclination would be to side with the views of the professor on this.”

PC Leader Tim Hudak said he also supports the position of the professor.

“I think about my daughter going to university or college down the road,” he said. “And one of the great things about Canada is we have equal access, no matter what your background, you can get ahead in life. That’s what makes this country great.”

— With files from Antonella Artuso

 

[The_Falcon]

And the letter he fired off to the Dean  ;D http://www.scribd.com/doc/199418074/York-University-professor-s-response-to-dean-s-letter

Dear Colleagues

I am writing in response to the Dean‟s letter of January 10 in which he outlines his reasons for supporting a student who for religious reasons requested that he not be required to interact with females for the completion of a group assignment. There is a great deal that I could say in response to the Dean's letter; however, in the interest of brevity I will only comment on five specific matters that he raises. More detailed documentation is available upon request.

Before I concentrate on these five matters I should specify that throughout my actions were governed by two considerations. First, York has a commitment to gender equality. Second, while the Ontario Human Rights Code allows accommodations for religious reasons, such accommodations must not have the effect of restricting the rights of others. In the situation under consideration granting the male student‟s request for an accommodation would have been inconsistent with York‟s core values and would have infringed upon the right of female students to be treated with respect by males.

1. The Dean states, "the course was listed and coded as being offered exclusively on-line. Thus the student registered in the course in the reasonable expectation that he would not be obliged to come to campus to interact, in person, with other students." (In actuality the student does come to campus to participate in at least two other courses that he is taking.) In fact, in a letter to the Vice Dean on September 27 I pointed out that the official departmental description of the course included the sentence, “course participants will actually conduct focus groups and analyze survey data using SPSS.” In module 1 of the course this  point is reemphasized. Students are told, “you will use members of your group as subjects for your focus group meeting.” In short, the student should have been aware that he would be required to interact with others in the course, even though it was online.

In order to avoid any possible ambiguity in the future, the Vice Dean, in a letter of October 4, suggested that, “in future offerings, your section of [the course] ought to be coded as a blended course, that is, as a version with required live elements. This coding ought to preclude any future student's mistaking of the course for one that can be done fully and exclusively on-line.” In response, for the coming year, I attempted to list the course as  blended; however, I was then told by the Vice Dean that I could not do that. In a letter of November 21 he wrote, “a course that does not involve the CD in scheduled on-campus interactions with his or her students is not blended.” This being the case, it seems that the Vice Dean is now agreeing with my original classification of the course as fully online, despite the fact that students are required to meet for the completion of one of the assignments.

2. In my course I provide an accommodation for students who live at great distance from the campus. Although not optimal (as they are denied the opportunity to be both a participant in, and facilitator of, a focus group) I allow them to conduct their focus group with friends or co-workers. For example, at the beginning of the year, one of my students was in Egypt. (Although the Dean alleges that the student requesting the accommodation was aware of this, I could find no indication of that knowledge in any of the communications I had with the student.) It is the Dean‟s position that as I made an accommodation based on the GEOGRAPHICAL inability of a student to interact with his group, I should also have made one for the student who on the basis of PREFERENCE did not want to interact with the females in the class. The situations are not at all parallel.

Last year, in the same course, for the same assignment, I had two students who missed the due date. One provided a death certificate verifying the death of a parent. Under these circumstances I gave the student an extension. Another student who missed the deadline reported that he had been on vacation and returned to Toronto too late to complete the assignment. Consistent with the Dean‟s logic, because I gave an extension to the first student, I should also have given one to the second; however, I did not. As professors we make judgments, and one accommodation does not set a precedent for another based on different circumstances.

3. The Dean points out that under the Code institutions must try to accommodate if three conditions are met. One of these conditions is that, “the accommodation must have no substantial impact on other students‟ experience in the class.” Consistent with this principle, in his communication to me of November 25, the Dean argued that, “I am unpersuaded that it is even arguable that the non-participation of this one male student in group work affects in any way any other student‟s human rights. Even assuming that it did…the effect does not, in my opinion, qualify as a „substantial impact‟ on any other student‟s rights.” Unfortunately, the Dean provided no evidence for this opinion. By contrast, I have empirical evidence indicating that the granting of the accommodation would lead some female members of the class to feel belittled and humiliated. In other words, the accommodation would have a substantial impact on other students‟ experience of the class. This alone should have  been sufficient to deny the accommodation.

4. The Dean argues, “had the course been listed as anything other than an exclusively on-line course, the student would presumably not have enrolled.” In fact, the student is taking, as a minimum, two other sociology in-class courses at the current time. He is not only taking online courses.

5. The Dean writes, “the sole grounds for different treatment was the professor‟s disapproval of the student‟s beliefs.” It would be more appropriate to say that consistent with York‟s core values and those of the society in which we live, the grounds for my denying the accommodation were my beliefs that the rights of female students should not be compromised and that they should  be treated with respect by male students.

I will conclude by stressing that like the Dean I regret the negative  publicity that this event has caused York. It is for this reason that when the Dean first insisted that I accommodate I wrote to the President to ensure that he was aware of the possible consequences of the accommodation. On October 12 I wrote:  I tried to reason with the Dean's Office that because of its implications such an accommodation should be denied; however, I was overruled, and the decision was taken out of my hands. I know that you have a commitment to diversity but presumably not to the extent where meeting a student's religious needs detracts from the status of female students. I do not believe that we want to be known as a university in which the rights of female students can be compromised by religious concerns.

I did not expect a response and I did not get one. I also asked the Dean about the possibility of a meeting that would include my Chair so that I could outline the reasons for my discomfort with the course of action he proposed. In response, the Dean assigned someone from his office to deal with the issue, as is his right. I also requested a meeting with the Vice-Provost; however, because the matter was being dealt with by another office, she declined. I am stating these facts lest it be assumed that I acted in haste by contacting the media three months later.

 

[Danjanou]

Good read, I am really starting to like this prof. As for the rest of York U admin types, this sums it up:

 

[The_Falcon]

And the dean is digging in his heels saying he had no other choice  :

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/01/13/york-university-dean-who-granted-students-request-to-keep-from-female-classmates-says-he-wishes-he-had-another-choice/

Two days after York University was scandalized by news that it had backed a student’s request to be kept from his female classmates for religious reasons, the dean responsible informed colleagues that he had no other choice.

“[I wish] I had had another choice, but neither I, nor those who advised me, believe that I did,” reads a Friday letter by Martin Singer, dean of the university’s Faculty of Liberal Arts and Professional Studies.

In October, Mr. Singer ordered sociology professor J. Paul Grayson to accommodate the request of a student to be excused from a group assignment due to the student’s “firm religious beliefs” that women and men should not intermingle.

“I am writing as Dean of the Faculty of Liberal Arts and Professional Studies to require that you respect the Faculty’s legal obligation to accommodate the religious practice of [the student],” wrote Mr. Singer in a confidential October 18 letter to Mr. Grayson.

Related
National Post Editorial Board: Rights crusaders run amok at York
Andrew Coyne: York ‘accommodation’ and Quebec values charter both swap hard rules for judgment
University stands by controversial decision to allow female-free schooling for religious student
Grant student's request to avoid women for religious reasons, York tells professor
Instead, the professor ignored the Dean’s order and, last week, took the issue to the media.

As Mr. Grayson wrote in an October letter to the university’s president, “I do not believe that we want to be known as a university in which the rights of female students can be compromised by religious concerns.”

The student, meanwhile, respected the professor’s decision and attended the group sessions without complaint.

Last week, Mr. Grayson confirmed that the Dean’s order remained outstanding.

In Friday’s letter, leaked to the National Post, Mr. Singer expressed his “sincere regret” at the issue, but maintained that since the measure would not have had a “substantial impact” on the other students in the course — which was online — he was bound by the Ontario Human Rights Code to have the request fulfilled.

“I am dismayed that the decision to accommodate has been characterized as an endorsement of the student’s belief system, and as a betrayal of York’s decades long efforts toward gender equity,” he wrote.

As outlined in the two-page letter, at the crux of the Dean’s controversial decision was the fact that Mr. Grayson had already allowed another student in the online course to make alternative arrangements for the group assignment.

The student lived outside the country and could not physically meet with other students. Nevertheless, since that student had apparently skipped the group assignment without having a “substantial impact” on the other students, Mr. Singer concluded that “the sole grounds for different treatment was the professor’s disapproval of the student’s beliefs.”

He added that “disapproval of belief is precisely the way that discrimination on grounds of creed is defined.”

In a weekend response to the Dean’s letter, Mr. Grayson held that a “geographical” limitation is entirely different than a “preference” to not work around women. “The situations are not at all parallel,” he wrote.

The professor then noted an episode — in the same class — in which he gave an extension to a student whose parent had died, but denied an extension to a student who had simply been late returning from a vacation.

“Consistent with the Dean’s logic, because I gave an extension to the first student, I should also have given one to the second,” wrote Mr. Grayson.

The sociology professer also asserted he had gathered “empirical evidence” to refute the Dean’s claim that acceding to the student’s request would not have had an impact on the women in the class.

Last fall, Mr. Grayson said he gave a survey to one of his other sociology courses in order to gauge the class’ reaction to a hypothetical case of gender segregation on religious grounds.

When the female students reacted with almost uniform outrage, he concluded that “were the male to be granted a substitute assignment there would be ‘collateral damage’ among female students.”

While the Dean’s decision has provoked a storm of public outrage in the last week — including condemnations from NDP leader Tom Mulcair and Justice Minister Peter MacKay — it continues to have the wide-ranging approval of York University brass.

According to the Dean’s letter, his decision had the support of York’s Centre for Human Rights, university provost Rhonda Lenton, the Office of the University Counsel and the Office of Faculty Relations.

Notably, a Thursday statement by the provost — the first issued in the wake of Mr. Grayson’s revelations — expressed support for the Dean’s position, while also reiterating the university’s commitment to “gender equity, inclusivity and diversity.”

The student’s religion is not known, leading Mr. Grayson to suspect that the student was either a follower of Orthodox Judaism or a conservative strain of Islam.

Walid Saleh, Director of the Institute of Islamic Studies at the University of Toronto, said that if the student is indeed Muslim, the request is still “odd.”

“Even Muslim women with covered faces have not objected to attending classes where genders mix or collaborate in activities with the opposite sex, so this is rather unusual, especially coming from a male,” he wrote in an email to the National Post.

The fact that the student relented so easily, noted Mr. Saleh, shows “he might have been unsure of what to think.”

National Post