Hawk said:
Vern, I'm in agreement with you. The others had almost changed my mind, but in reality it all went against my old school learning (1960's - I really mean OLD SCHOOL). Maybe things are different, nowadays, and maybe in some circumstances they should be - I don't know so won't judge.
I don't know where the "old school" comments are coming from in this thread quite frankly because I've certainly not called for a return to them. Nor has anyone else that I can see. What I have seen is a comparison of how the proper paying of courtesy, and attitudes towards it, has been changing over the past decade or so.
But, the rules and regulations regarding the proper paying of compliments to Officers and protocol regarding courtesy have not changed in that decade. So what's the difference?
The difference is in discipline. Times have indeed changed. I joined on 12 Jan 88. I have been the beneficiary of much change in the CF, a heck of a lot of it for the better. I do not, have not, will not ever put out a call for a return to the "old days." Quite frankly, when someone mentions how something used to be in the "old days" -- ie my saying that troops KNEW what to do and just did it -- seems to have garnered some attention in that "the old days are over and we are moving on."
Why, these days, whenever anyone mentions something about the "old days" must that be immediately construed as "the old days are gone, this is the "new CF" by someone of the more recent generation of soldiers? This is indeed the new CF, but the rules haven't changed regarding courtesy. Those rules are old ... so why aren't they being enforced?? That is an inherent aspect of a leaders duty. It boils down to discipline. Discipline is the foundation block of the CF. It's fundamental.
As I6 posted earlier, we have a large volume of combat arms types with combat experience who are redefining the face of the CF and the meaning of Camraderie and Teamwork within their groups. This is all good. We have to adapt with changing times. There is ZERO wrong with that. But, I'd also wager that in those combat arms Unit and smaller teams of which I6 spoke --- there isn't a single Pte who would have remained with his feet on the desk, or his smoke hanging out of his mouth with his arms hanging lackadasicly at his sides while the RSM and CO walked by. That is because discipline is still being enforced. Leaders are leading. Getting along with ones peers, needing to know them intimately due to life and death situations one may be placed into is fundamental to mission success, but so is discipline. In Kev's example -- I'd move that those personnel have found the happy balance, thus morale, performance and discipline is excellent.
The same can not be said for an office or sea enviornment where a Pte or OS seems to think that it is acceptable to lounge around with his feet on the desk when the big boss walks in. Even on civvie street --- one would usually find their ass fired for such a transgression. I fully expect that within the CF, even the new CF, we would expect better and more appropriate behaviour than that. Believing
that has nothing to do with being old school -- rather it's just manners.
Here's my take ... if a Pte or OS is comfortable remaining with his feet up on the desk and believes that is a proper paying of courtesy to the RSM or Comd; that it is acceptable to behave in such a manner towards those pers, then I can only imagine what that Pte/OS feels is appropriate behaviour towards a MCpl or a Sgt. It does not a pretty picture make.
