You do not salute the officer, you are saluting the embodiment of the Queen's Commission. If the Officer is not fulfilling his tasks as detailed therein, then his chain of command should be informed and act accordingly. Respect is earned over time and an officer should not be judged on one incident and then disrespected solely on the folklore associated with that moment in time. Every General was once a naive Junior Officer, even Generals Patton and Puller.
Has rank been watered down?
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Well I’ve read the posts here with some interest and thought I’d weigh in with a civie perspective. As someone who sees and has seen a lot of youth before they get out into the employment world (like the CF), I’d argue that the issue is not just in the CF, it’s a societal issue. Most, if not all the people in my profession will tell you that there has been a steady erosion of respect for authority over the past 10 to 15 years. I left high school in ’92 and I can definitely say that things have changed a lot. This is not to say that there is an issue with all the kids, but there is a big difference from when I went through. This is not my opinion either; from reading the posts here and speaking to people in the community, there is a noticeable difference.
There is a general apathy or malaise in many kids towards work, authority and society. When I went to high school, I would not even dream of treating or relating to my teachers the way that I have been. We are not longer authority figures to many of them; some of them think we are their buddies or just this person they have to see for 75 minutes each day. Unfortunately much of that disrespect comes from their home environment. From my and many of my colleagues’ experience, there are some parents out there who do not want to take on or deal with the difficult issues of being a parent. One incident stands out for me as a prime example; my wife is a math teacher and she had called home regarding this student who was being a pain and was not completing his work. The parent replied plainly that he was having a difficult time getting through to his son; rather than take a firm stand, he chose to just let his son do his own thing. The famous quote was “I can be the (excuse the term) asshole parent or the nice parent and I don’t want to be the asshole!” Well, no wonder he acts the way that he does; no one corrects him. If a teacher called home when I was in school, I wouldn’t have even gone home because I knew that my old man would have crucified me. Kids are not getting on the right path because there are parents out there that want to be friends instead of parents. How can they learn to respect authority if they never learned in at home?
Maybe this post is a bit off track, but I think it goes to the heart of the entire issue. I can remember being a 17 yo recruit and being scared s$%tless every time I walked by someone I didn’t know out of fear that I wouldn’t see their rank and salute or acknowledge them. You’re not going to get that reaction from some young people today.
Just my $0.02.
There is a general apathy or malaise in many kids towards work, authority and society. When I went to high school, I would not even dream of treating or relating to my teachers the way that I have been. We are not longer authority figures to many of them; some of them think we are their buddies or just this person they have to see for 75 minutes each day. Unfortunately much of that disrespect comes from their home environment. From my and many of my colleagues’ experience, there are some parents out there who do not want to take on or deal with the difficult issues of being a parent. One incident stands out for me as a prime example; my wife is a math teacher and she had called home regarding this student who was being a pain and was not completing his work. The parent replied plainly that he was having a difficult time getting through to his son; rather than take a firm stand, he chose to just let his son do his own thing. The famous quote was “I can be the (excuse the term) asshole parent or the nice parent and I don’t want to be the asshole!” Well, no wonder he acts the way that he does; no one corrects him. If a teacher called home when I was in school, I wouldn’t have even gone home because I knew that my old man would have crucified me. Kids are not getting on the right path because there are parents out there that want to be friends instead of parents. How can they learn to respect authority if they never learned in at home?
Maybe this post is a bit off track, but I think it goes to the heart of the entire issue. I can remember being a 17 yo recruit and being scared s$%tless every time I walked by someone I didn’t know out of fear that I wouldn’t see their rank and salute or acknowledge them. You’re not going to get that reaction from some young people today.
Just my $0.02.
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IntlBr said:
My troops are not afraid of me. But, they damn well know the reprecussions of not showing proper compliments etc.
And fear of those extras that they know will come --- tends to ensure that they do follow those rules.
IF my troops wreak those extras (and by definition -- my giving them to them --) they have NO ONE to blame but themselves for they are indeed aware of the rules. Despite my having zero problems doleing out extras when required -- I have pers asking to come work for me. Leadership, discipline and it's enforcement does not equal "Mean, scary, old school WO."
Nice attempt to try to spin this into being a "fear" mongering leader order of business, but it sure as hell isn't.
Fear of not following the rules does NOT equal fear of one's Leadership.
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Sorry Vern - wasn't trying to spin anything.
People were explicitly saying that they used to be afraid of walking by someone of a higher rank.
I think there is a distinct difference between me putting a spin on the thread, and me observing a trend in posting.
People were explicitly saying that they used to be afraid of walking by someone of a higher rank.
I think there is a distinct difference between me putting a spin on the thread, and me observing a trend in posting.
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Intlbr,
I can't speak for everyone, but what I met from my posts was not that I am deathly afraid of my superiors, only that sometimes they can make me a bit nervous, which makes me stand straighter and salute sharper. I don't think the CF operates on a culture of fear.
I can't speak for everyone, but what I met from my posts was not that I am deathly afraid of my superiors, only that sometimes they can make me a bit nervous, which makes me stand straighter and salute sharper. I don't think the CF operates on a culture of fear.
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IntlBr said:
Who said that?? And where in this thread??
I've got 20 years and 14 days in -- and I've never heard the statement "if you aren't afraid of your leaders they aren't doing their job" before. Never, not on this forum, nor while at work. And by the way -- I consider myself part of the New CF. It was a mere year after my Basic course that running in combat boots etc stopped due to human rights etc etc. Us "old timers" with 20 years in are NEW CF --- perhaps some young 'uns out there will understand that one day. It was those of us who are getting ready to retire in a couple of years who broke down those damn walls (such as the blanket party yadda yadda yadda) for you!! We are part of the Balkans and Afghanistan generation, how's that for enlightenment?
One fears the reprecussions of failing to do their duty. That's good in this outfit!! It's called discipline!! Sometimes -- your fellow soldiers lives may depend on your doing that Duty --- and their lives may be lost if you fail to do that duty and instill that discipline.
Saluting and showing proper respect to anothers rank (not necessarily the individual) is very basic discipline.
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C'mon Vern, the implication is there in many posts... it doesn't have to be explicitly spelled out for it to be there. That's a tone that I'm getting as well from a few people on this thread.
Roy, Infanteer, Gunner, and I-6/Kevin (among others) seem to be on the opposite side of the fence in this particular idea of the "old ways" being better, and since I can't confirm or deny I'll take their word for it, since I know that the experiences being brought back from Afghanistan are bringing a lot of change to the way business is being done in my trade, just as the infantry was morphing into a different (desert-dwelling?) beast when I left it. I'm not going to say one way or the other, but I will say that there is a time and place for everything. And yes, saluting and proper dress/deportment is definitely a factor that has it's place, just today I gave a troop some shit for having his hands in his pockets while walking in a public parking lot.... that being said...
Fearing the repercussions of failing to do your duty is exactly what IntBr mentioned in his first thread. And that is NOT discipline, it's fear, and doing your job because your afraid of what might happen if you don't do it; That IS a culture of fear, and on a battlefield, that's stupid, because then you are just going to go whichever way scares you less... and unless we are Soviets in WWII, that would make us a pretty gutless army. Which we are NOT.
Discipline is doing the job because goddammit, it's your job, and it needs to get done, because others are depending on you. Not; "I'd better do it or the scary Warrant will get mad at me.". Discipline is following the rules, because you are supposed to for good reasons other than because you are afraid of getting jacked up by a superior. I'm not saying fear isn't a good training tool, but it shouldn't be a component of the everyday job... just my 2 cents. No need to pay any attention if you think I'm completely out to lunch.
As for not being allowed to be run in combat boots (among other things) yeah, thank goodness THAT "never" happens anymore ^-^
Roy, Infanteer, Gunner, and I-6/Kevin (among others) seem to be on the opposite side of the fence in this particular idea of the "old ways" being better, and since I can't confirm or deny I'll take their word for it, since I know that the experiences being brought back from Afghanistan are bringing a lot of change to the way business is being done in my trade, just as the infantry was morphing into a different (desert-dwelling?) beast when I left it. I'm not going to say one way or the other, but I will say that there is a time and place for everything. And yes, saluting and proper dress/deportment is definitely a factor that has it's place, just today I gave a troop some shit for having his hands in his pockets while walking in a public parking lot.... that being said...
Fearing the repercussions of failing to do your duty is exactly what IntBr mentioned in his first thread. And that is NOT discipline, it's fear, and doing your job because your afraid of what might happen if you don't do it; That IS a culture of fear, and on a battlefield, that's stupid, because then you are just going to go whichever way scares you less... and unless we are Soviets in WWII, that would make us a pretty gutless army. Which we are NOT.
Discipline is doing the job because goddammit, it's your job, and it needs to get done, because others are depending on you. Not; "I'd better do it or the scary Warrant will get mad at me.". Discipline is following the rules, because you are supposed to for good reasons other than because you are afraid of getting jacked up by a superior. I'm not saying fear isn't a good training tool, but it shouldn't be a component of the everyday job... just my 2 cents. No need to pay any attention if you think I'm completely out to lunch.
As for not being allowed to be run in combat boots (among other things) yeah, thank goodness THAT "never" happens anymore ^-^
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You are now saying that they want a return to the "GOOD old days" because they've said that the RSM sat at the right hand of Gawd etc??
Roy has posted the exact opposite quite frankly ... that the change is for the better, but that not all the "old" ways of doing business need to go out the window.
I am sick top death of young ones in the CF these days reverting to "dinosaur" and "old timer" comments every time someone who happens to have some TI states that times have changed, and that the paying of courtesy used to be better than it is now, etc etc. That means they want to see a disciplined and professional acting force -- it doesn't mean that they condone shit, abuse, and fear. Rather, quite the opposite in my case. If YOU earn it (shit) -- you'll get it, and it works the very same way for 'rewards.' I'm actually quite fair about that.
Sadly ... that's a fact. It has nothing to do with being Mean Old Timers and pining for yesteryear -- it's about enforcing BASIC discipline, which -- whether one likes it or not -- is still what makes or breaks a soldier in the combat enviornment.
NO ONE in this thread has hinted that we go back to the old days of unwarranted shit & abuse. No one. Nor have they inferred it. And I'm sick and tired of the young 'uns rallying the call of "old timers" and "times have changed" whenever anyone asks why rules and regulations that STILL exist are not being enforced, especially ones so basic and easy to accomplish and uphold as saluting. What seems to be the problem?
There is ZERO wrong with the rules regarding the paying of compliments to one's Commission, so why is there such a call as to throw out the "this is the new CF" label and "times have changed" arguement?
I could see that arguement if we were calling for a return to blanket parties (and if you look really close at this VERY thread --- you'll find those Old timers you've mentioned above expressly said NO to that), but that's not what's happening here. We are asking what is so gawd-damned difficult with todays soldiers saluting a CO when they walk by or at least getting their feet off the damned desk when he walks into their office (even on civvie street one would be FIRED for an act like this -- and this IS the CF where discipline is tantamount to success)? And, as of yet -- despite their protestations of this being the "new CF" -- not a single young 'un has posted a satisfactory answer to that question. Not a one.
Oh, BTW -- did you miss this?
Nor do I operate on a culture of fear. If I earn my extras -- I do them. Just like my troops do. There's nothing wrong with that. And that's not "scared fearless". :
Roy has posted the exact opposite quite frankly ... that the change is for the better, but that not all the "old" ways of doing business need to go out the window.
I am sick top death of young ones in the CF these days reverting to "dinosaur" and "old timer" comments every time someone who happens to have some TI states that times have changed, and that the paying of courtesy used to be better than it is now, etc etc. That means they want to see a disciplined and professional acting force -- it doesn't mean that they condone shit, abuse, and fear. Rather, quite the opposite in my case. If YOU earn it (shit) -- you'll get it, and it works the very same way for 'rewards.' I'm actually quite fair about that.
Sadly ... that's a fact. It has nothing to do with being Mean Old Timers and pining for yesteryear -- it's about enforcing BASIC discipline, which -- whether one likes it or not -- is still what makes or breaks a soldier in the combat enviornment.
NO ONE in this thread has hinted that we go back to the old days of unwarranted shit & abuse. No one. Nor have they inferred it. And I'm sick and tired of the young 'uns rallying the call of "old timers" and "times have changed" whenever anyone asks why rules and regulations that STILL exist are not being enforced, especially ones so basic and easy to accomplish and uphold as saluting. What seems to be the problem?
There is ZERO wrong with the rules regarding the paying of compliments to one's Commission, so why is there such a call as to throw out the "this is the new CF" label and "times have changed" arguement?
I could see that arguement if we were calling for a return to blanket parties (and if you look really close at this VERY thread --- you'll find those Old timers you've mentioned above expressly said NO to that), but that's not what's happening here. We are asking what is so gawd-damned difficult with todays soldiers saluting a CO when they walk by or at least getting their feet off the damned desk when he walks into their office (even on civvie street one would be FIRED for an act like this -- and this IS the CF where discipline is tantamount to success)? And, as of yet -- despite their protestations of this being the "new CF" -- not a single young 'un has posted a satisfactory answer to that question. Not a one.
Oh, BTW -- did you miss this?
Nor do I operate on a culture of fear. If I earn my extras -- I do them. Just like my troops do. There's nothing wrong with that. And that's not "scared fearless". :
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I'm not advocating a return to the "old ways of unwarranted shit and abuse" at all! I've experienced unwarranted shit and abuse, and having shit thrown at me, doing push-ups in a patch of grass that the NCO's just threw a bunch of broken beer bottles, and broken glass into, and being cursed at for no reason and getting cocked (in "illegal" ways) because someone thought it was their job to be a prick, for no other reason than there was nothing better to do... if you say it doesn't happen anymore, you don't know what you are talking about. It damn well does, (not often, as far as I know) and it sucks.
I'm saying the opposite "to bring back" that crap. I'm saying that fear has no place in a field unit... heck, I'm saying what I just posted, two posts up, and it had nothing to do with bringing back the "old" army at all.
edited for grammar, and clarity... I hope.
I'm saying the opposite "to bring back" that crap. I'm saying that fear has no place in a field unit... heck, I'm saying what I just posted, two posts up, and it had nothing to do with bringing back the "old" army at all.
edited for grammar, and clarity... I hope.
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And not once have I ever defending being a lazy-ass and not saluting anyone who deserves it, read farther back and you'll see that I stated my position on Courtesies and Respect very clearly.
Exactly NO-ONE has advocated it at all...
As for you saying fear equals discipline, I quote: "One fears the reprecussions of failing to do their duty. That's good in this outfit!! It's called discipline!!"
I disagreed in my last post, and I stated my reasons for it.
Maybe we're on the same side, and the typing is getting in the way, either way, I'm out for the night.
Exactly NO-ONE has advocated it at all...
As for you saying fear equals discipline, I quote: "One fears the reprecussions of failing to do their duty. That's good in this outfit!! It's called discipline!!"
I disagreed in my last post, and I stated my reasons for it.
Maybe we're on the same side, and the typing is getting in the way, either way, I'm out for the night.
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I used the term old days and they way it used to be . BUT I never said it has to return to the old ways, I used the term to show the way it was. The way it is now i can take a day off if the 9Delta is sick and so are the kids . that would not of happened. IN THE OLD DAYS. but we are talking about the way it is now . it was merely a comparison now vs then . i like now .BTW my 2 cents
A
aesop081
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Dog said:
:crybaby:
The whole post but the bold part in perticular
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Dog said:
"Fears the reprecussions" (ie the extras) does NOT equal fearing for one's safety etc. I've said that before too. :
I sure as hell didn't say "fear equals discipline", but nice of you to throw that into my mouth. I said one feared the reprercussions of their inappropraite actions. Period. They didn't act inappropriately, because they KNEW there'd be extras involved if they didn't. Do you get it yet? Acting appropriately (because you knew there'd be extras if you didn't) ... is BEING disciplined at it's lowest level.And, as for this bit ---
Dog said:
You'd never see me say it doesn't happen. But, you will see me saying that it shouldn't. So WTF did you do about it? Need advice and counsel?? ... send me an email at work tomorrow -- I happen to be an HA, an HI, and an EAP Rep. Yeah ... I'm such a fucking dinosaur, so old army it's ... just "scary." :
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I was not planning to comment on this topic but "into the breech" :warstory:
I am a firm believer in recognizing a superior rank. Wither it being a corporal or a colonel. It has nothing to do with fear but with respect.
Having been part of the CF's "Cold War Army"(60's/70's), I guess I fall into the "old days generation".
The " old days" were as most have mentioned. In today's eyes they would have been considered cruel and unjust punishment. For us guys that served during that era, it was just the way things were. For me, the daily "dressing-down" went in one ear and out the other. My biggest problem was trying to keep a straight face.
I was caught with my hands in my pant pockets by the Base RSM, he marched me directly to the Base tailor and had them sew up my pockets. I am sure there are hundreds of such stories from " old days" soldiers. Did I think I was unjustly treated, no. Did the punishment fit the infraction, at the time, yes. I could have been given weekend mess duty cleaning garbage buckets in a hot steamy room.
The "old days" never affected my out look on life. I never disliked anyone who " dressed me down" , they were doing their job. I can not speak for others of my military era but I never gave my treatment in those days a second thought.
The CF of the present will be different from the CF of the future as it is different from the CF of the past. If I knew then what I know know, changes may have been made. Today we use the past to make changes for the present which will make changes to the future. Even in the present, there are situations when how things were done in " the old days" should apply.
I am a firm believer in recognizing a superior rank. Wither it being a corporal or a colonel. It has nothing to do with fear but with respect.
Having been part of the CF's "Cold War Army"(60's/70's), I guess I fall into the "old days generation".
The " old days" were as most have mentioned. In today's eyes they would have been considered cruel and unjust punishment. For us guys that served during that era, it was just the way things were. For me, the daily "dressing-down" went in one ear and out the other. My biggest problem was trying to keep a straight face.
I was caught with my hands in my pant pockets by the Base RSM, he marched me directly to the Base tailor and had them sew up my pockets. I am sure there are hundreds of such stories from " old days" soldiers. Did I think I was unjustly treated, no. Did the punishment fit the infraction, at the time, yes. I could have been given weekend mess duty cleaning garbage buckets in a hot steamy room.
The "old days" never affected my out look on life. I never disliked anyone who " dressed me down" , they were doing their job. I can not speak for others of my military era but I never gave my treatment in those days a second thought.
The CF of the present will be different from the CF of the future as it is different from the CF of the past. If I knew then what I know know, changes may have been made. Today we use the past to make changes for the present which will make changes to the future. Even in the present, there are situations when how things were done in " the old days" should apply.
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