Forces struggling to recruit...

[medaid]

Care to elaborate Wallace?

Read more type less. The CF recruiting time and period is no slower or longer then any other Federal or Provincial employment. The RCMP routinely takes up to 6months to reply to your application or before even giving you an offer, why don't people complain to the RCMP? To tell them that they need to change their standards? That they need to give mandatory reply?

Give me a break.  :

 

[TCBF]

Read more type less. The CF recruiting time and period is no slower or longer then any other Federal or Provincial employment. The RCMP routinely takes up to 6months to reply to your application or before even giving you an offer, why don't people complain to the RCMP? To tell them that they need to change their standards? That they need to give mandatory reply?

Give me a break.  :

- We are not the Feds or the Horse Police.

- As I have stated before: In the mid eighties we picked up a batch off the 707 at Greenwood, bussed them to Cornwallis and as we gave them the 'greeting' speech in the small drill hall I learned that one recruit was still hung over from the drunk he was on when he had walked into the recruiting center FIVE DAYS before being sent to CFRS Cornwallis.  Five days. 

 

[rtangri]

Fair enough, I guess compared to RCMP and other governmental institutions  there are long waiting times, but I think everyone here agrees there needs to be a smaller wait time. As for college and university protests to military recruiting, i am sorry if I offend anyone, but SCREW them. The army shouldnt be being pushed around by a bunch of hippie influenced students. I am the U of Toronto (mississauga) and trust me I here it all day all week about how crazy and badly-influenced I am by Bush because I support the war on Terror (afghanistan).

Definately, tons of cash needs to be distributed responsibly to the recruiting personnel, and I DO BELIEVE they should be given at least more a little bit more power in the selection process. I do hope though one day more regional selection boards are adopted. Just a personal opinion. As for Canadian training centres (for the military recruits), definately one or two needs to be made to accomodate more recruits. High school and university students(like myself) deserve the right to access to a recruiter on campus. Your always going to have the crowd that doesnt like this and doesnt like that, I mean come on, they dont even like the fact that the word "fight" is in the military commercial- GIVE ME A BREAK>

anyways I am anticipating some responses to my hot-headed response, but I'm only trying to give an opinion from a citizen (who is on the merit list praying to get in as an OCdT) who just has his nations best wishes in his heart. GO CANADA

 

[medaid]

- We are not the Feds or the Horse Police.

We ARE Federal. The Canadian Forces IS a Federal Department.

 

[TCBF]

We ARE Federal. The Canadian Forces IS a Federal Department.

- DND is.  DND has to follow national hiring and firing policies.  The CF - although subordinate to DND - is allowed exceptions.  Some of those exceptions would facillitate a massive recruiting campaign similar to those in the last century.  The missing link here is the over-bureaucratization of the entire selection and training system by the people in it.  The engine is busted, and no one is accountable.

 

[BC Old Guy]

Believe me - the CF has to follow national legislation, government regulations and has set up a number of CF regulations that the recruiters have to follow.  Many of these are not set by the recruiters, but by the various organizations within the CF.

There are a lot of issues with increasing the number of recruits enrolled during a year.  A major issue is indeed buildings, but it requires years to get new buildings built, or to shift activities from existing buildings.

Another big issue is finding the instructors to teach the courses.  The current expansion is occurring during a time of increased number of operational tasks, and a time of increased retirements as people decide to retire after 3/9/20/25/30+ years of service, while there is a gap in experience due to the reduced recruiting during the 90's.

The recruiters would like to be in more places as well - but there are limits on the number of recruiters that are available.  Over half of the recruiting workforce are Reservists, and there are more jobs for the Reservist than there are trained people looking for Cl B and Cl C jobs.

 

[aesop081]

As for Canadian training centres (for the military recruits), definately one or two needs to be made to accomodate more recruits.

Again kid.....we dont have enough people to be instructors now , having more training centers would just make a big problem larger. Also, once these new centers for recruits of yours have graduted new people, what do you think we have ?

Thats right, more BMQ qualified people that have to sit there and wait while we pay them for nothing. Do you know why ? Because the trade schools are short instructors and facilities too.

It's prettty simple for you to say "add more schools" isnt it ?

 

[medaid]

- DND is.  DND has to follow national hiring and firing policies.  The CF - although subordinate to DND - is allowed exceptions.  Some of those exceptions would facillitate a massive recruiting campaign similar to those in the last century.  The missing link here is the over-bureaucratization of the entire selection and training system by the people in it.  The engine is busted, and no one is accountable.

We'll basically agree. LOL We are in the end a Federal agency no matter how much we dislike it. We are Federal even though we are subordinate to DND.

http://canada.gc.ca/depts/major/depind-eng.html#M

I agree with the over-bureaucratization that we seem to have put ourselves into, and indeed it is busted but those in charge do no think that it is. It's unfortunate, but that's the facts.

Our efforts at Recruiting are lame to say the least. Honestly. I have seen recruiting strategies from the US and ours pale by comparison. I know that we must factor in geographic, cultural and societal demographics into account when recruiting, however we just seem to be doing a really poor job at it in general. The recruiting videos lack the supposed "umph" that the US .mil ads have. I will honestly say that every single time I see an US military TV ad it gets my heart pumping. The visual message and communication, the audio visual touches is what really sets US and Canadian military ads apart.

Now, another great down fall that we have as the CF is that our ads attempt to communicate TOO much into one short clip! The US .mil ads has one theme, one branch, and one slogan.

US Army - Army Strong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkdPfbOp_8g
US Air Force - Above All / Cross Into The Blue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h1ozsCPjok&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FTYKT4w-zc
US Navy - Accelerate Your Life http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fzK6EYWEo8&feature=related
US Marines - The Few The Proud http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiVP9aOfOQM&feature=related
US National Guard - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdT7njoka68&feature=related

So as you can see from all of the above posted videos, although they are only a small collection of the countless videos, ever evolving, put out by the US .mil public affairs and recruitment, they have one clear message in all of their videos "JOIN US". They're not afraid to compete amongst the branches. Why? Because they KNOW that different people are drawn to different things. They see something that interests them? They'll go and apply for that branch, that service, that MOS. They don't care if John #1 saw the USMC video and decided to join the Army. They know that John #2 would join the Marines just as willingly if he saw the US Navy ad. They don't care. They compete, they foster, and they display.

So... what do we have?

Canadian Forces

This is what we have had recently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZhGx3AREcw You'll see that it starts with the Navy... then the Army... in A'stan... with BFAs... and TW... and what the hell?! Back to the Navy... then SAR Techs... then Army supposedly clearing a building in A'Stan... then Evac into... oh wait what was that? Was that... an LSVW Amb?!  Then SAR Tech...

Do you see the problem here? There is NO clear message. There is NOT a single JOB that's really highlighted. Not a single element that's been separated or stood out. It was one big MASH of STUFF. Sure the US .mil ads are mash of STUFF as well, but they all center around THEIR element, and they SHOW IT.

Then there was this one from quite a few years back that was equally mishmashed and equally bad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K69jwRkm04&feature=related

Our recruiting ads have NO clear message. They are NOT designed to show anyone what we do, they are designed to make our jobs look even more confusing.

You want to create a CF video that shows caring, aid giving and help? Why not look at this ad for example?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YFUfuglke0&feature=related


The other problem is the lack of community involvement or connection. In the US the and in the UK they have display teams that appear at different events. Large fairs, community events, state and county events and so much more. Want an example of it?

USMC Silent Drill Platoon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90UPLLo6nY You hear the crowd cheering in the background? Now how many of those in the crowd do you think are ex-servicemen/women? Marines? Soldiers? Airman/woman? Current Marines? Future Marines?

US Army Drill Display Team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dxTBK7jI1s&feature=related

US Navy and US Airforce ALL have drill display teams such as the two seen above.

What about our British cousins from across the pond?

The Royal Marines Display Team: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvfowwVvwO8&feature=related

They are a public relations display that goes to events and puts on a show about the RM and answers questions afterwards. Now do I think what they've done is really suitable for us? No. I don't think so at all.

What I am getting at is this. The current method of attraction has got to be stepped up. Op Connection is in more ways then one a failure. The amount of money spent on it is ridiculous, but the out comes are poor. From my own personal participation I've seen local units having to SCROUNGE and I mean SCROUNGE people to fill in the displays. I have seen units refuse or unwilling to send people there in general. Two years ago when I was at Op Connection at the PNE we had the NBP on display. It was a HUGE success. The display area was optimal and the way things were set up allowed for the maximum amount of exposure and information exchange. The RegF and the PRes were both there recruiting heavily and I must say had by and large some success. The regiments that were in attendance got their soldiers and those who weren't there... well lost out. The Navy and the Airforce had siplays as wella nd really represented the CF as a whole well.

Compared to last year, the turn out was poor from the PRes side of the house. I worked many, many hours while some units refused to provide members, or had none they could spare. It had such a low turn out rate on the PRes side that the Bde HQ staff were ordered to participate in the event AFTER their work day.

What I can't seem to understand why a crucial and quite important part of the CF is being ignored? Why units view it as a CHORE rather then as a pride thing to attend public functions to put their units into the spot light. To allow their brothers and sisters in other regiments, and other branches, other elements and other arms to SHINE?

I hope most of you understand what I'm trying to get at. We need a serious kick in the 6 to get the campaigning and public relations down pat. I will tell you from my own experience that when I went to recruit health care professionals they were by and large unwilling to join the CF because of rumors, not knowing what we do, and because of the lack of opportunities available in the CF. Now please don't tell me that we have lots to offer, because we ALL know that we have LIMITED things to offer to professionals. People who can make 2 times or 3 times the amount having a private practice would want to come to the CF why? What do we offer them? Pay? Nope. Experience? Not really... other then trauma, but any EP in a large Emerge will experience that if not most of it. Courses? Most hospitals pay for many of the advanced courses and many of the physicians out there make enough to cover any course they want. So... using the health care professionals as an example... what do we offer?

........?

So let's set up a display team. Sure we have the Skyhawks and the Snow Birds... but... so what? Can anyone walk up to them and say hi? To ask them questions? To see their air craft? To listen to stories? To not have to wait in line for hours to get merely a glimpse of them at an Air Show?

Each Bde should have a display team for the PRes. They should be Class B soldiers coming from all walks of life. Different MOC, ranks and regiments. Bring back the Scarlets, bring back the Blues. Get authorization to wear them again, because the DEUs are NOT cutting it for the Army. It should be a joint effort for the Bde because community involvement, is good PR and good PR = higher likelihood of recruitment.

Want to make things exciting? Mount a Guard at all the Legislatures. Why not? Why shouldn't the Citizen Soldiers of the area be allowed to mount a guard outside of their Province's seat of power? Now this is a suggestion for Display and Community connection ONLY, and NOT to be misinterpreted.

Want to include the youths of today? Get Cadets to mount a guard with the members. Why not?

Why not have a Drill Competition amongst the Regimens and Units? Have it in a place where the public are encouraged to view and participate and watch. Why not?

Before you go into "funding" and other "considerations" consider this. Every time a yuppy or liberal nut says something about us we remain silent. We don't go forth to prove that they are wrong. We do not attempt to educate the public, all we do is sit amongst our selves and rant. So why doesn't the CoC move us INTO the community to expose us to the public and the public to us?

Keep in mind that we were ALL civies once. We KNOW how they think, and we KNOW what they're like. They don't know what we are at all, and they don't know what we do. They are scared. So put down our masks and smile at the people who we are here to protect and serve. I am not suggesting that this should be taken as a priority over a unit's operational tempo or end state. However, hearts and minds and recruiting is in many ways MORE important then our mission in Afghanistan.

Why you ask? Because if we don't do a good job on the Home Front recruiting, representing our brethren overseas, they are not going to feel the support from the nation. They are not going to come home to a nice of an atmosphere as they would if we helped people understand. PAF cells should shift focus AWAY from damage control and into preemptive strike. Get ahead of the yuppies for once, don't let them dictate our community involvement. Don't let them dictate our goals and our methods to achieve them. Move beyond the small battles of hippies and move into the overall war of national understanding and acceptance.

 

[Gager]

We'd be better off focusing our efforts on retention. We don't have enough instructors and the more recruits you bring in the more waiting around they do at more of an expense.

Be selective and increase training expenditure for existing soldiers. You won't have quantity but you'll have quality. You don't need to keep bringing guys in if the ones already here are satisfied and not looking elsewhere cause they think the Army is bullshit.

 

[aesop081]

You don't need to keep bringing guys in

Quite the contrary. Not bringing in new people in a steady stream is what got us in this mess in the first place. The solution is to find the rigth ballance between recruiting and retention.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Compared to last year, the turn out was poor from the PRes side of the house. I worked many, many hours while some units refused to provide members, or had none they could spare. It had such a low turn out rate on the PRes side that the Bde HQ staff were ordered to participate in the event AFTER their work day.

What I can't seem to understand why a crucial and quite important part of the CF is being ignored? Why units view it as a CHORE rather then as a pride thing to attend public functions to put their units into the spot light. To allow their brothers and sisters in other regiments, and other branches, other elements and other arms to SHINE?

Just an aside, the PRes in LFWA has hundreds of soldiers deployed on TF 1-08 and conducting assigned priority individual training.  The well is dry pers-wise and you have to pick what you can assign people to.  It is a chore...

 

[geo]

Ummm... LFQA had something like 550+/- doing predeployment training prior to TF 3/07 (ROTO4)
similar numbers for TF 1/09

Ensuring that the right people are sent over is never easy but, it's doable

 

[Jed]

I don't know about the other Areas but in my opinion , for LFWA, the system is broke. It must feel like we are the CSA trying to get soldiers to fight on during the US Civil War.

Improved retention won't cut it. Recruiting the way we are doing it now will not cut it. Some major 'outside the box' thinking is required just like it was required before both World Wars. Unless there is a sudden ureeka moment in the bureaucracy elite admitting that there is a huge problem and that drastic measures are needed, probably expensive and not politically correct , I see no improvement in sight.

General Sam Hughes may have picked a bad rifle but he sure knew how to bring in soldier recruits.

 

[Old Sweat]

What outside the box solutions might you suggest?

 

[X-mo-1979]

Ensuring that the right people are sent over is never easy but, it's doable

I don't believe so.Certain tours are known as the "left overs" mostly on the jnr NCM/backbone side of the house.You can kick a POS off your tour,however you know he's going to be deploying the next year.

 

[Jed]

Old Sweat, I wish I had some solutions to the problem. I liked Med Tech's willingness to go for it in the good ideas department.

This is a major, complicated problem that has to involve the bureaucracy significantly shifting its direction. As we all know this can not happen quickly without upsetting a lot of routine process.
i
First, thing is to clearly identify the problem - We must immediately grow the CF, 2nd - then we must train them to an acceptable std, 3rd - then we want to provide incentives to retain all good folks we have.

1. ID the problem

Joe Canuck voter has to really see the need for more troops, He then has to be willing to take money from his wallet to assist in funding. He then has to be quite vocal with the politians on how he wants his taxes spent.

Young Jane and Joe Canuck have to then say, hey, the CF is a great organization to belong too. They do a lot of good things for the country and people generally see you as a good guy and , as an added bonus get to do really cool things, like jump out of airplanes or fly them etc.

We have to get them in the door and signed up quickly. We have to do fairly quick triage to sort out who can cut it, what professionals we must retain, and then we have to get them doing real interesting training as soon as possible.

If we did this then retention is a piece of cake.

The system has to be more risky wrt sensitivity of upsetting individuals. It also has to put good money into real interesting training. It also has to honestly tell people about the interesting training and why this good training is very, very important for Joe Canuck and young Janey and Joey Canuck, new CF members.

I wish it was a requirement for anyone wanting to be a Candaian VOTING citizen, to serve in the CF or the public service for a year. Maybe, we would have more buy in from the people.

 

[aesop081]

Old Sweat, I wish I had some solutions to the problem. I liked Med Tech's willingness to go for it in the good ideas department.

This is a major, complicated problem that has to involve the bureaucracy significantly shifting its direction. As we all know this can not happen quickly without upsetting a lot of routine process.
i
First, thing is to clearly identify the problem - We must immediately grow the CF, 2nd - then we must train them to an acceptable std, 3rd - then we want to provide incentives to retain all good folks we have.

1. ID the problem

Joe Canuck voter has to really see the need for more troops, He then has to be willing to take money from his wallet to assist in funding. He then has to be quite vocal with the politians on how he wants his taxes spent.

Young Jane and Joe Canuck have to then say, hey, the CF is a great organization to belong too. They do a lot of good things for the country and people generally see you as a good guy and , as an added bonus get to do really cool things, like jump out of airplanes or fly them etc.

We have to get them in the door and signed up quickly. We have to do fairly quick triage to sort out who can cut it, what professionals we must retain, and then we have to get them doing real interesting training as soon as possible.

If we did this then retention is a piece of cake.

The system has to be more risky wrt sensitivity of upsetting individuals. It also has to put good money into real interesting training. It also has to honestly tell people about the interesting training and why this good training is very, very important for Joe Canuck and young Janey and Joey Canuck, new CF members.

I wish it was a requirement for anyone wanting to be a Candaian VOTING citizen, to serve in the CF or the public service for a year. Maybe, we would have more buy in from the people.

Nothing new there. So realisticaly, whats you solution ?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Basically, IMHO, we've got top stop treating our military like it's still a peacetime force.

Most urban centres with the highest populations have zero regular force presence in the community. The militia armouries are the traditional connection between the community and Canada's Army. The private sector has it figured out: sales success is all about 'location, location, location'. Why not treat this war like the major conflict it really is and, like WW1 and 2, mobilize a few reserve units across the country, staff them up with regulars and recruit and train locally like hell (using modern marketing techniques) so that 'your local unit can go defeat the Taliban'? I dunno, call it the '100 mile' solution or something - act locally, soldier globally.

My experience is that most people in cities are not anti-military and, as the recent Olympics proved, are really very proud of our national institutions and quietly but strongly patriotic. They're just not sure where it is or how to get involved.

Let's go Canada! (Oops, wrong recruiting poster slogan...)

 

[medaid]

My solution would be to create a cell under me, give me a reasonable budget, cooperation from all CFRC/D and Local Units and let the fun begin.

I would first review the trend and demographics of recruiting. See if there was a spike in activity after the old crappy recruiting vids have been aired. Conduct a quick survey as to whether Canadians thought they were effective. The next step is to increase exposure, while at the same time develop more effective AV ads. A trip to the US to learn from our counterparts would give us a fairly good idea on how to more effectively recruit and retain. Then return to infuse these ideas into the changing system.

Most of you may laugh all you want when you read I had said put a cell under me. Go ahead, because seriously, I can't do any worse then what is happening right now, which is NOTHING. I can draw everything up and present my ideas if ONLY someone would LISTEN.

We need to get it into our heads NOW then Training/Retention/Recruiting is what holds a military force together. It's not fancy equipment, cooler lookibg bangsticks or new combat clothing. Trust me I think they're all very important, but with out new troops to fight and use the equipment, they'll just sit idle. Without good training to train these new troops they'll just sit at bases like they are now. An absolute waste of time and resources. Without retention for the good instructors and leaders you'll have no one to train your troops to fire weapon systems, to do drill or to appear before the public.

Things need to change, with the proper suport from Commanders at ALL levels and on the Political side of the house, we can make those changes. We can build a stronger and more efficient Canadian forces.

 

[AlphaQup]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/78906/post-744126.html#msg744126
^Thread summarizing the report. Makes you cringe but they're problems that must be addressed.

Made a thread a week or so ago detailing these very problems that were brought up by the Office of the Auditor General.
Report:
http://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/aud_ch_oag_200605_2_e_14959.html#def2