Forces struggling to recruit...

[dapaterson]

My solution would be to create a cell under me, give me a reasonable budget, cooperation from all CFRC/D and Local Units and let the fun begin.

Ah yes, "When I'm in charge, all will be perfect"

I would first review the trend and demographics of recruiting. See if there was a spike in activity after the old crappy recruiting vids have been aired. Conduct a quick survey as to whether Canadians thought they were effective.

Already done within the recruiting group.

The next step is to increase exposure, while at the same time develop more effective AV ads. A trip to the US to learn from our counterparts would give us a fairly good idea on how to more effectively recruit and retain. Then return to infuse these ideas into the changing system.

Do you know the federal restrictions on advertising?  Do you know the policies on AV products?  Do you know of the cultural differences between soldiers in the US and those in Canada?  Their motives for joining?  The US experience right now is ever increasing bonuses for retention, and lowering of entry standards... hardly a long-term solution to our problems.

The bottlenecks right now are not in the recruiting system.  There's in the DP1 training system, more than anywhere.  The capacity at the CFRCs and St Jean outstrip what the DP1 schools can produce - so we end up with PAT platoons.

Most of the problems we have are because people focus on a single part of the system "Fix Recruiting" - so we bring in too many of the wrong trades, and don't ensure sufficient capacity in the schools for follow-on.  We need real leadership to fix the problems in a holistic manner - not news bite leadership that announces facile solutions to non-existent problems.

 

[medaid]

Hey, I never said it would be "perfect" but I am at least willing to try. If you've got an idea, shoot. Let's hear it. Because the current system is broken, in all the parts.

If CFRG has conducted studies, how come it wasn't know or publicized? Sampke population isn't a sample if they stood around NDHQ to ask a few by-standers questions.

Hey you got me on the restrictions and policy, but guess what? What I'm suggesting and asking for isn't that much more then the current crap. Just needs to be refined and retuned. If that's violating some policy which can be changed, then I can't see how the current crap got through it the first time.

I do know the cultural differences. IKve recruited before, and I have many friends who are current or ex US .mil and some of them Canadians. So please explain to me why many Canadians wanted to go south to join the Marines, the Army or the Navy instead of our own?

So what's wrong with trying to retain? Do you seriously think that all CF members join to stay? Get over that. Majority of the members joining now aren't looking for careers. Heck over 90% of applicants then went before my desk said that the CF was NOT their long term goal PRes or RegF. They want the experience and then go to Law School, Med School, RT school, Policing, PMC. The same happens in the US, sure, but their military is larger, more robust and can take the high turnover rate. Can we? No. Wit every tour we're losing experienced pers who've had enough. Sure you're going to say "well that's too bad. We don't need them anyways" but have any of you ever thought that this member with how ever many years of experience is now walking out the door when we could've found out what bugged him/her attempt to fix it and utilize them to mentor and train?

We've got a shortage of Inst right now because we're stretched too thin. We're NOT retaining, and we're NOT replenishing. WAKE UP people! The people who we SGOULD be worried about but isn't is our Junior members. Who really gives a damn about the Sgt and WO? They're more likely to stay in because it's a career. But what about the Cpl? MCpl who are young, filled with piss and vinegar who can now apply to any other Federal job, get paid better, and do more? Without the junior Inst and leaders, retaining them to train the next batch we've done nothing.

I never said recruiting was the only problem. It's a three sided approach. Recruit, Train and Retain.

Also, please tell me what trades are the wrong trades? There IS no wrong trade. Every job matters, and every job reflects the CF. So tell me, what's a wrong trade?

DP1 can't handle it? Why? Because Gagetown is the center of "excellence"? Come on. We've had multiple training schools before all over the country. We can do it again. Not enought staff? Well then, start retaining them then. See the vicious cycle? What's being done about it? Nothing. You think handing out money's bad? Well that's better then handing out bodybags because your unit couldn't be reinforced.

 

[medaid]

Real leadership? Like... the one that think retension is not worth while? Like the one that thinks all members want to stay in the CF despite the archaic thought patterns and regulations that prohibit simple things like oh... I don't know unblousing boots? Gimmme a break. Maybe wild ideas is what we need right now, because conservative and safe ideas have gotten us no where.

 

[blacktriangle]

We need to start putting strong, physically fit troops who look good in uniform in these types of displays. On top of that, these troops need to be kinda sorta smart, witty and speak well with people. I've gone in civi clothes to places where the CF had a display and pretended to be interested, only to be met by some fat dude, old guy, skinny xbox nerd, fresh out of BMQ reserve private etc...sorry guys but we need to look cool. I don't belong at those displays, I have a face only a mother could love. I accept it.  ;D So send in some some people who look tough, and talk well. Make Canadians want to show their pride...

 

[aesop081]

We need to start putting strong, physically fit troops who look good in uniform in these types of displays.

We also need them in the CFRCs.......but who wants to give up that new LDA eh ?

Guys are reluctant to take static postings....it doesnt help the overall cause.

 

[George Wallace]

........and NOT "the opportunity to travel".

 

[wolfshadow]

We need to start putting strong, physically fit troops who look good in uniform in these types of displays. On top of that, these troops need to be kinda sorta smart, witty and speak well with people. I've gone in civi clothes to places where the CF had a display and pretended to be interested, only to be met by some fat dude, old guy, skinny xbox nerd, fresh out of BMQ reserve private etc...sorry guys but we need to look cool. I don't belong at those displays, I have a face only a mother could love. I accept it.  ;D So send in some some people who look tough, and talk well. Make Canadians want to show their pride...

Or some of our nice looking Ladies in Uniform ...  I noticed that the Ladies in Uniform at the CNE always get lots of attention.

 

[blacktriangle]

Or some of our nice looking Ladies in Uniform ...  I noticed that the Ladies in Uniform at the CNE always get lots of attention.

I hate to even admit that there are good looking women in the CF because I prefer to look at them soldiers just like me etc and most are! But I will say there are some very good looking, fit and professional/intelligent females working with us, so we might as well have them show up too! But really, I just don't think 300lb overweighters should be recruiting in their cadpat ponchos. I've seen it, and I thought it was a joke.

and MedTech is right- I almost got out because of how slow stuff moves and how hard I had to fight to get to do good training...if a Cpl/Captain or up leaves because they are bored, think of the lost investment if they were willing to stay if they actually got the chance to do cooler crap.

 

[medaid]

Chucking money at anyone is not the way to go. Offer career advancement, relative trg. Specialized trg and so forth. I know we already do but it is arduous and slow process. Include bonuses don't get me wrong. Sure pay a retention bonus but offer other things. We have limited postings to places right now, but as our intercooperation with other forgeign powers go, offer more exchange postings.Give people the gucci courses such as para as more openings occur and as  our airborne powers increase.

If a guy decides to re-up give him his next pay incentive.
Be considerate to family and housing. Get MORE housing!

In the US there are courses galore. We do too, it's time to open some up. Small things can keep people on baord. Minimize the chicken poop, and less sitting around. Believe it or not the majority of members that I've spoken to who've gotten out all say the same thing, too much sitting around.

 

[Donaill]

We need to start putting strong, physically fit troops who look good in uniform in these types of displays. On top of that, these troops need to be kinda sorta smart, witty and speak well with people. I've gone in civi clothes to places where the CF had a display and pretended to be interested, only to be met by some fat dude, old guy, skinny xbox nerd, fresh out of BMQ reserve private etc...sorry guys but we need to look cool. I don't belong at those displays, I have a face only a mother could love. I accept it.  ;D So send in some some people who look tough, and talk well. Make Canadians want to show their pride...

  Physical stature is not as important as attitude.  If you truly enjoy your job and the people you work with that will show when you talk to people. I am an NEt and I have been on a few events to provide info about the trade and the navy. I love my job and really like the people I have met. That shows when I talk to people.  Send the people from the trades that you need the numbers for. Send NETs to attract the tech types. Send stokers to get stokers and the infanteers to generate interest inthe infantry.

 

[aesop081]

Offer career advancement,

We have plenty of that.....I remustered and made Sgt in less than 3 years.

Give people the gucci courses such as para as more openings occur and as  our airborne powers increase.

The capacity to run those courses are usualy limited because the resources for them are employed on things with higher priority. If we have the need for all those people to be para qualed then so be it but if its just a retention thing then its not useful......

Be considerate to family and housing. Get MORE housing!

You got to see Stephen ask ask him for money for that........

In the US there are courses galore.

Of course there is, they have close to 3 million people in uniform.........

We do too, it's time to open some up.

Please tell me what courses need to be "openned up"

 

[wolfshadow]

I hate to even admit that there are good looking women in the CF because I prefer to look at them soldiers just like me etc and most are! But I will say there are some very good looking, fit and professional/intelligent females working with us, so we might as well have them show up too! But really, I just don't think 300lb overweighters should be recruiting in their cadpat ponchos. I've seen it, and I thought it was a joke.

and MedTech is right- I almost got out because of how slow stuff moves and how hard I had to fight to get to do good training...if a Cpl/Captain or up leaves because they are bored, think of the lost investment if they were willing to stay if they actually got the chance to do cooler crap.

The Folks at the CNE put on an interesting show.  I had quite a good chat with a couple of Coyote crewmen last year... Chatted about the Coyote for almost a half an hour.  I didn't have that much time this year, but I definately noticed a couple of ladies in fatigues wandering around, and one doing some shopping in the Stitches area...She had quite a few eyes following her.

 

[Jed]

CDN Aviator: As I said I don't have a solution, this is a tough problem. The solution will have to be dramatic , from the top , and very risky.

Something like a government offer of employment for the Public Service or Military service for a year with potential to expand into various careers and receive training and some other carrot to assist immediate retention. It would have to be something that captures the imagination like say in the turn of the century when they let people come in and homestead free land. All they had to do was prove it up.

After the war many Vet's were given a shot of some good farmland.

Of course in today's lawyered up world I don't know how you would make that work.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So what's your retention strategy? 

-Realize that the STFU private and do what you're told mentality doesn't work as well as it used to.

-NCMs are much more educated than they used to be. Treat them as such.

-Have those career officers listen juggle and help out soldiers instead of seemingly posting people via dart board method.

-Work to avoid soldiers sitting on their asses in the platoon or company lines all day waiting for 4 pm to roll around.

-Throw out the recruiting system and rebuild it from the bottom up. Example A reserve infantry soldier going on his 3rd tour heading to afghanistan in an infantry role shouldn't find out that he is on a medical catagory and unable to transfer to the reg force infantry (yet still go to afghanistan??) when he is doing his pre-tour medical.

-We should figure out a way to get people on course within a matter of months and not leave them waiting until they loose interest 11 months down the road. Don't have the Instructors? Find them. More PLQ courses.  Make a protessional training carade. Maybe when a battlegroup returns home from a  tour their NCOs (or even half) teach for a year?

-GO through all t members on medical catagories and re-evaluate them. If their just destroyed and can't soldier anymore then either release them with benifits or put them in a job that's not blocking someones career progression.

-Go through all the vast members of the reserve world who are on medical catagories. Same thing as the regs, if someone is just destroyed and can't do anything then why have them in the army? Respectfully, pat them n the back give them benifits and remove them from the pool.
[Now that's not to say if someone is injured just cut them out of the CF. Far from it.  What I'm talking about is the people sitting back working the system collecting the money but not even attempting to get better or play with everyone else.]

 

[aesop081]

CDN Aviator: As I said I don't have a solution, this is a tough problem. The solution will have to be dramatic , from the top , and very risky.

Well, i'm assuming that you are a smart person. Everyone knows that we have these problems so that not the ....well...problem. Scratch you head and come up with something that is feasable.

NCMs are much more educated than they used to be. Treat them as such.

I have had those "more educated" NCMs.....i wish they would have behaved as such.

Have those career officers listen juggle and help out soldiers instead of seemingly posting people via dart board method.

Key word highlighted.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I have had those "more educated" NCMs.....i wish they would have behaved as such.

Excellent point, I overlooked that.
When someone is an idiot an beyond redemption punt them from the CF.
When a recruit is a total bag of shit and not going to benefit the CF kick them off course.  Get rid of the "everybody passes!" [Voice of Dr Nick from the simpsons] mentality. 

 

[aesop081]

Get rid of the "everybody passes!" [Voice of Dr Nick from the simpsons] mentality. 

To be fair, i dont think that this mentality is endemic. My trade only gradutes 50% or less of those who show up for the basic trade course for example. I think that we have made some progress over the last few years with upholding our own standards but the pressure to make up the numbers has to be great on training establishments.

 

[FastEddy]

Excellent point, I overlooked that.
When someone is an idiot an beyond redemption punt them from the CF.
When a recruit is a total bag of crap and not going to benefit the CF kick them off course.  Get rid of the "everybody passes!" [Voice of Dr Nick from the simpsons] mentality. 

Excuse me, are these the same IDIOT's and Bags of Crap that have Graduated High School and Plus ?, have Passed all Psychical fitness and Endurance Tests ?, are in Perfect Health & Condition ?, have been Psychologically Accessed ?, have successfully Graduated from that Jewel in the Crown Basic Training Facility at St. Johns Que ?.

 

[George Wallace]

Excuse me, are these the same IDIOT's and Bags of Crap that have Graduated High School and Plus ?, have Passed all Psychical fitness and Endurance Tests ?, are in Perfect Health & Condition ?, have been Psychologically Accessed ?, have successfully Graduated from that Jewel in the Crown Basic Training Facility at St. Johns Que ?.

You're starting to catch on.

 

[Old Sweat]

I have avoided jumping in because I haven't been involved in the training world since 1980, but I would like to offer a thought or two based on what I experienced back then.

At that time one of the ongoing problems was, believe it or not, large gaps of unproductive time between the end of CFRS and the start of MOC courses. This was compounded by high attrition, but that's a side issue. Recruiting was controlled by NDHQ while loading on the recruit and BOTC courses was done by CF Training System (CFTS) in Trenton.

My particular bugbear was combat arms, especially infantry TQ3 because of the numbers, recruit intakes and it seemed CFTS was using them as fillers. On investigation, I found that they were doing that because no one in the army had ever objected. Instead, in our finest traditions we just bitched about the dorks in Trenton screwing us up. So, we sat down with them and plotted the combat arms TQ3 intakes in conjunction with CFTS and the Battle Schools, etc so that a large platoon based on attrition numbers, say destined for the PPCLI, would start at a certain date and graduate x weeks later. Two weeks later a TQ3 course would start in the Battle School in Wainwright. We tried to do this for all our intakes and for officer candidates.

Eventually we convinced the CF (it was actually a cooperative venture between the three services, NDHQ and CFTS HQ) to produce a long range plan which gave guidance to the recruiters, the CF schools and the controlling organizations on numbers to be trained per MOC/Classification per year along with course block timings. The numbers were based on historical data re attrition along with equipment introductions and a number of other factors. It was quite accurate up to 18 months to two years out, but became more of a guesstimate the farther in the future one looked.

It was not perfect by any means and major screw ups occurred, but at least it provided planning guidance and direction. In a perfect world the recruiters could avoid bringing in left-handed widget technicians in April if the annual TQ3 course started in March. They didn't like that, as good prospective candidates were lost, but they followed it pretty closely.

I suspect people are doing something like this, but the magnitude of the challenge is something that can't be fixed by a snap of the fingers. The limiting factor, if I am reading this thread correctly, is the lack of instructors and space in the post-recruit training establishments.