Forces struggling to recruit...

[kincanucks]

that CT will be taken out of the hands of the recruiting system (it doesn't belong there anyway)

Yes and take the CIC and the reserves away from recruiting too and then they can concentrate on the Reg F.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Why not just have a seperate staff at the CFRC that handles Reg Frce only and one that handles PRes/CIC only?  Maintain quality control and stuff like that??

 

[GAP]

As an outsider looking in...what I see is a bureaucratic answer to a bureaucratic problem...more layers.

there are bottlenecks, the CF can't be the only large organization to run into this...how was it solved elsewhere???, then adapt

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Yes and take the CIC and the reserves away from recruiting too and then they can concentrate on the Reg F.

(Teddy strays out of his lane)

I disagree...  The Reserves are (and should be) every bit as operational as the Regular Force these days and the entry standard has to be identical.  Creating an alternate system (or leaving the process entirely in the hands of units as it was in the "good old days") runs the serious risk of creating diferent standards, permitting abuse of the system and adding yet more fuel to the "us versus them" mentality that still can be found throughout the CF.

As for the CIC, I agree 100%.  Then again, I continue to be mystified as to why the CIC is a "component of the Reserve Force" anyway - but that's a different argument.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Gap

Well, maybe, but thats not how I see it.  The CF Personnel Command that PBI is speaking about would make sense.

I can also see someone walking into the CFRC...and saying "I think I would like to join".  Front desk staff says..."part time or full time?" and depending on your answer, you go see Sgt Bloggins (Reg Frce) or Sgt Smith (Res Force).

Not sure how it works now, but I do know there are lots of Reg Frce people that know nothing about the Reserves, and lots of Reserve's that know nothing about the Reg Frce either.  Can those people effectively answer questions about either component? I doubt it.  

Identifying and eliminating the "common bottlenecks" on the CFRC side seems to be the more important issue.  

And, equally important, is having the staffing levels in each trade, and facilities, to actually train the people that are getting in to the CF in a "reasonable amount" of time.

Can you imagine this?  You take a job at say, Canadian Tire or Walmart, and they say "well, we are hiring you, but we can't train you for 8 months, so you will be working in the back stacking boxes and taking out trash.  Yes you were hired to 'do job X', but for now, you are just a store beotch."

Right.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

(Teddy strays out of his lane)

I disagree...  The Reserves are (and should be) every bit as operational as the Regular Force these days and the entry standard has to be identical.  Creating an alternate system (or leaving the process entirely in the hands of units as it was in the "good old days") runs the serious risk of creating diferent standards, permitting abuse of the system and adding yet more fuel to the "us versus them" mentality that still can be found throughout the CF.

As for the CIC, I agree 100%.  Then again, I continue to be mystified as to why the CIC is a "component of the Reserve Force" anyway - but that's a different argument.

Teddy,

I agree with the "one standard" aspect of recruiting.  It is a CFRC, not CF Reg Frce RC.  There should be one standard, one "way", for all applicants in the CF.  IMHO, at least. 

There is a need to ride some of the bottlenecks though.  Some people have suggested removing the ERC.  I was surprised by that.  You are going to teach people how to use weapons, how to think/act tactically, or even how to blow stuff up.  Might be better knowing the person isn't off their rocker before we do that.  ;D

 

[TCBF]

"Some people have suggested removing the ERC.  I was surprised by that.  You are going to teach people how to use weapons, how to think/act tactically, or even how to blow stuff up.  Might be better knowing the person isn't off their rocker before we do that"

- The ERC won't do that alone.  Psych Screening will, but it is considered 'Un-Canadian' - the "Myth of the Superiority of The Volunteer" and all that.

- Remember:  Ten more Clayton Matchee's and we won't have an Army.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

TCBF,

It won't do it alone (take the recent Chand fellow who served 4 yrs with the PRes), but I think you agree then removing it would be overall a "bad idea"?

Now..there's a name that hasn't surfaced in a while.  1 was enough, wasn't it?

How long (or has) did the Army take to recover from that one (and a spineless MND and CDS).

 

[GAP]

Gap

Well, maybe, but that's not how I see it.  The CF Personnel Command that PBI is speaking about would make sense.

Most of these comments throughout this thread contain at least a germ, if not a whole lot more,  of the ultimate answer. I have spent a fair amount of time within various levels of government departments, and the planning /implementation is not pretty. I have seen it from the totally incompetent to brilliant idea/poorly implemented to way to far advanced for this pay grade.

The one constant I have seen is "If you don't know what you are doing...add another layer to....cough...help/hide...the issue. With grandiose words and say nothing rhetoric (think liberal) you can convince people you really are solving the problem.  I would like to just see it solved.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Agreed on the solving part.  I would see the "revamping" of or addition or whatever, to a Reg Frce and Res Frce Cadre at each CFRC or SOMETHING as a positive step.

Like PBI mentioned, the CF Personnel Command, who if existant now, would be handling my CT, were in place, I would not be using up time/cycles of the MCC at the CFRC.

That makes sense to me.  One body that overseas the "HR" management of current serving members...and a seperate one (CFRG) that deals with "new people".

 

[GAP]

Excuse my ignorance, but you mean it isn't now?  Really, that doesn't make sense...two totally different sets of problems and issues.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Well, I have "limited" knowledge on such things as ADM - HR (Mil) BUT I do know that...to CT from the Reserve's to the Regular Force, I am now another "rookie" who's file is at CFRC...sorta makes you (me atleast) wonder why the military is sending a Class B (read full time Reservist) to the Recruiting Center to switch to Regular Force.  Well, me it does.

 

[Kirkhill]

I disagree...  The Reserves are (and should be) every bit as operational as the Regular Force these days and the entry standard has to be identical.  Creating an alternate system (or leaving the process entirely in the hands of units as it was in the "good old days") runs the serious risk of creating diferent standards, permitting abuse of the system and adding yet more fuel to the "us versus them" mentality that still can be found throughout the CF.

Teddy, if you can stray from your lane I hope you'll allow me to step right out of mine.

I don't believe that the Reservist should be subjected to the same clearances and standards as the Reg Force soldier.  I think there should be two classes of reservists.  There already are.  The trained and the untrained.

When you look at the profiles of the people on this board what stands out to me is how many of the senior posters started out as Militiamen/Reservists and then transferred/tried to transfer to the Regs.  Why didn't these people go straight to the regs in the first place?  Could it be because our society knows so little of military life and culture that that is just too big a step for most?

The old system of bringing a Reservist through the door, doing a perfunctory medical, attesting him, slapping a hat on his head and set of coveralls on his back then doubling him around the parade square for a bit and, with any luck take him down to the ranges had a number of advantages.

It was relatively cheap. It let the recruit-candidate get a look inside the system and make a better decision on whether this was the life for them,  whether or not they were up to the demands of the trade.  It also let the system get a look at the candidate and decide if it was worth investing the system's time and money in doing a comprehensive medical, a security clearance beyond Restricted, and in sending him on course to receive intensive training.  

Many folks that came in this way voted with their feet and just stopped showing up.  At the same time many others found that they wanted more and the discipline and bullshyte were all part of the process.

Most importantly the process engaged potential applicants from a society that knows little or nothing of the realities of soldiering.  

Its like fishing. Public Affairs - dangles  the bright shiny lure.   The system knows how to reel them in - that just takes muscle.  But the art of fishing is in knowing when to jerk on the line and how hard to tug to set the hook.  The Reserves offer one method of setting the hook softly.

 

[couchcommander]

I've already stated my opinion on this topic - if you want a strong reserve you need to make it accessible to the average Canadian.

Being gone for weeks at a time for training is not conducive to this. Most people simply cannot, despite their desires, take the time required to do this. This I am sure on.

As I said before, if it was possible for me to receive all of my training during evenings and weekends you'd see me at the recruiting center before the holidays.

I personally don't think you need to dumb it down or slap a hat 'em and send 'em off to the ranges (but military training is far out of my lane so extremely IMO) - I think a system of regional training centers easily accessable by major urban centers for weekend ex's and in town training during the week *could* provide at the very least the standardized system of training that Teddy desires - though of course I wouldn't expect the troops to be A number one - but some sacrifices have to be made IMO.

Once again... IMHO.

 

[Kirkhill]

couchcommander,

the regional training centre is not a bad idea.  That was the original idea behind Meaford.  It was supposed to be one of a number of MTSCs across the country (Militia Training and Support Centres).  The problem - from what I can gather - is that as planned they were too few and too widely dispersed to do any good.  Why set up Meaford when Borden was just about as close?

At the same time there is the question of what constitutes necessary training and what needs to be conducted where.  People keep talking about needing to get out into the field to conduct good training - but that is for individuals who already know something about army life.

Most, at least in my day, early individual training, could quite easily be done in the existing armouries in classrooms and on the parade square, because that is what most of the instruction required.

How to wear the uniform, to stand at attention, to march, to salute, how to salute.....
CFAOs, Hygiene, First Aid
Weapons handling and characteristics
Organization
Tactical movements
Voice procedures......

Driving and 1st Halt maintenance could be taught from the armouries on civilian streets.  Tactical driving is another matter entirely.

Heck they even taught the elements of rappeling from the balcony in the armouries

All this and much, much more

Individual training at existing armouries, given qualified and motivated instructors is quite possible.   There is enough material there to keep the average new entry busy long enough for him to lose that glazed look associated with wondering what hit him.   At least the first militia-year of training.  In the meantime he hasn't learned anything that is damaging to national security.

It was the second year that things became difficult.  Those that haven't quit because they don't like it probably wanted to go on course over the summer. Were the courses available to all that wanted them.  In a lot of cases two to six to ten  weeks of 24-7 training (depending on what courses and programmes were on offer) on top of what they learned at the armouries was enough to set them on the path to becoming a good soldier.  For others they determined that it wasn't for them and again left. 

Those that stayed wanted something more challenging and those that didn't find it became cynical and quit.   But the challenges come with increasingly technical training which can't be provided by local instructors, or training that needs manoevre areas.  Those are hard to come by and are expensive.

But by this time the Army has got a sense of the individual, can do the detailed clearances and send those individuals along for the training that ultimately will make them useful in Afghanistan.  Some will opt to go on to the regs.  Some will be available to come back to the reserves as instructors.


This Tory promise of 100/400 Battalions and "permanent" military garrisons in cities gave me hope that there might be more of the Windsor type Armouries in the offing - places where you could get something more than what we used to be able to offer and more along the lines of what you seem to be suggesting. 

PS - For those that might/might not be designing those armouries make sure to include a rockwall and a rappeling platform along with the ranges.

 

[couchcommander]

But by this time the Army has got a sense of the individual, can do the detailed clearances and send those individuals along for the training that ultimately will make them useful in Afghanistan.  Some will opt to go on to the regs.  Some will be available to come back to the reserves as instructors.

Just a dumb question in this regard though - is this necessarily the ultimate purpose of a reservist? What about simply having a group of trained individuals able to respond to domestic needs and/or be quickly mobilized if the excrement hits the fan?

Do really only want the reserves to be a big force generation mechaism for foreign op task forces?

...once again dumb question

 

[Kirkhill]

Not a dumb question - this is not necessarily the ultimate purpose of the reservist.  I would agree with

simply having a group of trained individuals able to respond to domestic needs and/or be quickly mobilized if the excrement hits the fan

.  And I would suggest that if that is all the reservist wants to be then the type of training that is available locally with the occasional field ex may be all that is necessary.

However, many reservists want something more.  They discover that they want to be part of something like Afghanistan.  That they are willing to make the commitment to the task.  At the same time the Army has had a good look at the individual and has time to assess everything from abilities, to eagerness, to security risks to fitness, AND, if necessary decide whether this individual warrants waivers for deficiencies like allergies, lasik surgery, medication, past records, etc etc.

At the same time the reserves have created a local, disciplined, willing force capable of coming to the aid of the government and the community in time of crisis. 

The Reserves should not be seen only as a route to the Regs, nor should it be seen as the only route to the Regs.  But people many people might see a military contribution solely in terms of joining the Regs and immediately facing the prospect of Afghanistan.  Those may not be in the majority.  Many others may wish to contribute, like yourself, at a lower level initially, maybe only.  But some of those ultimately become comfortable with the institution, more trusting of it, and more willing to volunteer for more trying duties.

 

[navymich]

Just a dumb question in this regard though - is this necessarily the ultimate purpose of a reservist? What about simply having a group of trained individuals able to respond to domestic needs and/or be quickly mobilized if the excrement hits the fan?

Do really only want the reserves to be a big force generation mechaism for foreign op task forces?

...once again dumb question

If you look at the Naval Reservists, there are many employed full-time to man the MCDV's (usually 10 ships manned at one time with 25-30 core crew each is 250-300 reservists right there), not to mention Port Security Sections, short-term OJT contracts etc.  Besides Operational taskings overseas and such, what is available for an Air or Army reservist full-time?

When you look at the profiles of the people on this board what stands out to me is how many of the senior posters started out as Militiamen/Reservists and then transferred/tried to transfer to the Regs.  Why didn't these people go straight to the regs in the first place?  Could it be because our society knows so little of military life and culture that that is just too big a step for most?

Personally, I joined the reserves for the fun of it one summer during high school.  I ended up enjoying it so much that I stayed.  Between a civilian job, school and later on, the occasional full-term contract, I didn't even think of transferring to RegF.  It is only now, after 4 years continuous Class C posted to a ship that I have decided to move on to a career vice a job.  This is something I have decided on my own, and I know that many others currently in NavRes are making this same decision.  The reasons vary from wanting a career, to wanting a change, to having used the reserves as a "stepping stone" (checking it out, see if they like it), to being completely fed up with life as a Naval Reservist, etc.  But I too wonder if they were ever told the other options available to them when they first enrolled.  Being a high school student, I never was.  But then again, I was processed almost completely through my home unit, only going to CFRC for the CFAT and interview.

 

[Hot Lips]

Well, I have "limited" knowledge on such things as ADM - HR (Mil) BUT I do know that...to CT from the Reserve's to the Regular Force, I am now another "rookie" who's file is at CFRC...sorta makes you (me atleast) wonder why the military is sending a Class B (read full time Reservist) to the Recruiting Center to switch to Regular Force.  Well, me it does.

Because I am going Regs that's why...
:rofl: :nana:

HL

 

[GUNS]

Way back when the Dead Sea wasn't sick, all recruitment for Reserves was done at the unit level. You were in uniform and doing training before your doc.'s reached HQ. This unit recruitment was cancelled due to $$$$. Maybe they should re-visit it again with modern day improvements.