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Forces struggling to recruit...

My two sons tried to join the reserves in Montreal where they live. They were told to come back in six months. They have now returned and are told they will have to do it all over again. This is time-consuming for no reason as they have already entered everything, done everything and only had the final interview left to do - what gives? They were accepted basically on everything else and only had to wait for the final part of it, they were also told that they would have to pass the physical, which, they were told would be done in a  gym such as Nautilus and if they didn't pass right away would have to pay 35 bucks to do it again because of it being a civilian gym. I know I am getting older but when I joined we were tested at the Unit and didn't have to pay. They are not working in high paying jobs but are patriotic and have come from a family who has served - and proudly I might add. Now even with their good school marks, physical condition etc, they are being "brushed off". This is the time to sign them up - when they are "gung-ho" and ready for it - not two years down the line when they have other things they have taken up because the Military keep putting them on hold. The worse part is that I have told them how good it would be for them etc and now look what happens! This makes me angry.
 
I agree BW Rickard Sherry...and I feel that is a major flaw in the current system that needs to be fixed immediately.
It goes back to what I said before, and even what others have stated in this thread, the CF is losing good recruits over the time delays.

When I first went in and spoke to a recruiter I was told the timeline was 3-6 months, and here I am less than a month away from it being a year since my full app was put in, and have not received a call.

If the merit system is based on how well the applicant has done why is it that someone, like myself, who qual'd for all NCM's trades and has no med issues is still waiting? Even with college under my belt, is doesn't seem to help out at all. I knwo there are many others with similar stories on these very boards.

I know my husband's frustrated at how long this is taking compared to his recruitment just over 9 years ago when it took 4 months from start to finish for him, and that was for a fresh out of high school boy with nothing else but a dream to be in the military.

The systems needs to be revamped....seriously revamped, and soon.



 
If the merit system is based on how well the applicant has done why is it that someone, like myself, who qual'd for all NCM's trades and has no med issues is still waiting? Even with college under my belt, is doesn't seem to help out at all.

Well lets see:

You could qualify for all the occupations and still not get a high CFAT score and not get high marks for it.
You could have college and have average marks which would result in a low score.
You could have had an average or below average interview and got a low score.

It doesn't take a high score to get merit listed and if you are going for a trade that is competitive you might not ever get selected because:

Someone else also qualified for all the occupations and got a very high CFAT score.
Someone else also completed college with a very high averages.
Someone else had a very good interview and received a high score.

CFAT score plus academics is marked out of 30 and interview is marked out of 60 for a total out of 90.  Most people sitting on the merit list for any occupation have an average of 46 so the strong ones will get the jobs.  46 might get you in the combat arms but probably not in RMS.

It goes back to what I said before, and even what others have stated in this thread, the CF is losing good recruits over the time delays.

It goes back to what I asked you before:

Oh please provide me the names or even the numbers of these "some good recruits" that we are "losing" because of the recruiting process.  That is a common rallying cry around here especially for people who are being held up because they don't meet the medical standards, are counselled out for drugs, can't pass a simple aptitude test or can't meet the basic physical standards or are generally weak applicants.
 
kincanucks said:
Oh please provide me the names or even the numbers of these "some good recruits" that we are "losing" because of the recruiting process.  That is a common rallying cry around here especially for people who are being held up because they don't meet the medical standards, are counselled out for drugs, can't pass a simple aptitude test or can't meet the basic physical standards or are generally weak applicants.

This is very interesting - as I was under the impression that the wait for applicants to run through the system and end up on course was indeed rather long (both from this site and personal experiences conveyed to me).

I am pleased to hear otherwise. If you don't mind, could you provide me with the average processing time of sucessful applicants?
 
"The systems needs to be revamped....seriously revamped, and soon."

- So:  a young soldier is two minutes late for parade - charged.

- Well, how about - a recruiter screws up paperwork which does more damage to our mission than the young soldier being two minutes late for parade... CHARGE.

- It' s about time people realized that discipline is a CANADIAN FORCES policy, not just a combat arms unit one.

- - Sort out the slackers and non-hackers who've hidden themselves in that big bloated bureaucracy and CULL THE HERD.
 
To add to what kincanucks has stated:

The CF has similar processing times, for new recruits, as similar Federal agencies - CSIS and the RCMP both expect 6-12 months to process an applicant. The CF does not stand out in this area, and it seems apparent that the military (and CFRG) has little control over some requirements.

The two bottlenecks that I think could perhaps be streamlined are the medical process and the Pre-Assessmet Security check. Those two, especially the security check (not the ERC, the one for people who have not lived in Canada for 10 years) seem to add the most time. With modern population movement and increasingly global citizens, requiring everyone who, no matter the circumstances, has left the country for more than 180 days to wait a year or more is wasteful.

From my point of view, I find that the processing time most effects Reserve applicants, since they are mostly younger and simply looking for a part-time job, not a career. Many have lost interest or moved on by the time they are ready to be sworn in. I think Three, Six, or Twelve months waiting is justifiable for a career, but not for a summer and part-time job. However, lowering the standards for the Reserves is not the solution.
 
From page six of this thread:

There have been some changes to reduce the number of Pre-Secs currently being processed.  It may be, I repeat may be, possible for waivers to be given for people coming from one of the original NATO countries (those from the USA still require a FBI check), people coming to Canada at <16 years old and don't have any immediate relatives out of country, people who already hold a a Canadian security clearance from another federal department, and any cases that the CO/Det Comd is worthy of risk management (people who have done missionary work, etc.).  All on-going pre-secs will be reviewed to determine if they can be waived.  Note that this waiver policy will be applied on a case by case basis.

The medical process will only be made faster if two things happen together:  1) The CF increases the size of the medical staff at CFRG and 2) The wait times for civilian MDs/Specialists is significantly reduced. 1) can be done and 2) who knows.  However, this process has gotten a lot faster and unless the applicants has serious medical issues the medicals come back very fast.

I find that the processing time most effects Reserve applicants, since they are mostly younger and simply looking for a part-time job, not a career. Many have lost interest or moved on by the time they are ready to be sworn in. I think Three, Six, or Twelve months waiting is justifiable for a career, but not for a summer and part-time job.

The problem is attributable to several factors: in some cases the reserve unit does not pressure the applicant to get their applications in as soon as possible and will sometimes sit on applications waiting for the applicant to provide further information instead of getting on their asses to get it in; the applicant takes too long to provide the information to complete their applications and/or applies too late in the year to make it for summer training and ends up waiting for the fall; some reserve units do not have full-time or dedicated recruiting staff and even if an applicant applies on time and with a complete application there is no one to accept or other staff will file the application away;  CFRC/Ds have other priorities which include ROTP, Reg F DEO and NCMs; some CFRC/Ds deal with several reserve units in their AORs and may have to juggle the processing slots between all of them and some units may not get as many slots as they wish; some CFRC/Ds don't have the staff to deal with the workload; there are not enough medical resources to deal with the workload in CFRG; and Brigades and Headquarters consistently play with numbers and some units, although they have the applicants, will end up losing training slots and the applicant loses out.  Are there solutions to these issues?  Yes  but they may be too expensive for some to handle.  Hire full-time recruiters for every unit, assign strict deadlines for reserve applications: both for the applicant and for the reserve unit to get them into the CFRC/Ds, hire more recruiting staff and/or allocate the recruiting resources from less productive CFRC/Ds to the more busier ones.

The optimal time to get any applicant into the CF should be less than three months and the average is now around less than six months.  Again the time taken is dependant on several factors not only including the trade selected but what baggage the applicant brings to the counter.



 
kincanucks said:
It goes back to what I asked you before:

Oh please provide me the names or even the numbers of these "some good recruits" that we are "losing" because of the recruiting process.  That is a common rallying cry around here especially for people who are being held up because they don't meet the medical standards, are counselled out for drugs, can't pass a simple aptitude test or can't meet the basic physical standards or are generally weak applicants.

I can not give you names and numbers to recruits who have given up after a long wait, but I am willing to bet they do exist. I would not be able to have access to that information, but I am curious if you would have access to the percentage of recruits who get called and turn it down. Does the CFRC ask the rercruit why they are no longer interested?

IIRC, there was a CBC news story about a year an a half ago about a young man who was trying to join and was getting the run around by the local CFRC. He had been waiting for quite sometime after all testing was done. After the lengthy wait(I can not remember exactly how long) he said he was done waiting and gave up.

I have waited 14 years to be able to have the chance to join, but I, along with many other members on here, are getting very discouraged.

kincanucks said:
The optimal time to get any applicant into the CF should be less than three months and the average is now around less than six months.  Again the time taken is dependant on several factors not only including the trade selected but what baggage the applicant brings to the counter.

What exactly does the CFRC consider baggage? Are we talking criminal, financial, a family?
 
Springroll said:
I can not give you names and numbers to recruits who have given up after a long wait, but I am willing to bet they do exist. I would not be able to have access to that information, but I am curious if you would have access to the percentage of recruits who get called and turn it down. Does the CFRC ask the rercruit why they are no longer interested?

IIRC, there was a CBC news story about a year an a half ago about a young man who was trying to join and was getting the run around by the local CFRC. He had been waiting for quite sometime after all testing was done. After the lengthy wait(I can not remember exactly how long) he said he was done waiting and gave up.

Did the story indicate if he had medical issues, credit or security issues ?  Could have been a factor and i wouldnt be surpised if it had been "overlooked" by the press.

I have waited 14 years to be able to have the chance to join, but I, along with many other members on here, are getting very discouraged.

As i remember it Springroll, YOU bear some of the responsibility for the delays in your case.
 
Springroll said:
IIRC, there was a CBC news story about a year an a half ago about a young man who was trying to join and was getting the run around by the local CFRC. He had been waiting for quite sometime after all testing was done. After the lengthy wait(I can not remember exactly how long) he said he was done waiting and gave up.

If a delay was so common, it wouldn't be a news story now would it?? 

CBC EXEC...."Alright Comrade, we need a story to discredit the military. Yea, you know that white male haven that exists just to grab our funding pot. Hmm, well if this is all ya got, I guess we will run with it. Yadda, yadda..."
 
aesop081 said:
Did the story indicate if he had medical issues, credit or security issues ?  Could have been a factor and i wouldnt be surpised if it had been "overlooked" by the press.

As i remember it Springroll, YOU bear some of the responsibility for the delays in your case.

If I recall, he had lived in canada since he was 5 or somethng to that affect. Wish i could remember more about it.
Regardless, he gave up on wanting to join.

I fully admit that part of the delay was me....with good reason too.
Still doesn't make it alright to be waiting anything over 6 months to get in.
That should not be the acceptable norm.
 
Run down to the GM plant in Oshawa and drop your name in and see if you are employed within 6 months.......
 
Speaking from experience about the Recruitment process. I know for a fact that if you have a trade that the military is in desperate need of, you will be in uniform before you know it.

I'm ex-military, who decided to join the Reserves. I had to go through the complete procedure of Recruitment because I was out of uniform to long. I happen to have my Inter-provincial ticket in Heavy Equipment Repair so there was a lot of smiles when I walked into CFRC.

I did the whole routine for enlistment and passed. Upon  passing, the Recruiter took me aside and asked me to go back into the Reg.'s instead of the Reserves. If I went Reg's, there was a substancial signing bonus and I would be in uniform within a month.

I had a very good job at the time so Reg's were not an option. Reserve's would allow me to keep my job and still spend time in uniform. After I turned down their offer of joining the Reg's, I had to wait seven months before the Reserves called me. SEVEN MONTHS.

You know where I told them to stick their job. There was this guy that applied to join the Reg's the same time as I was joining the Reserves. He told me at the end of testing that he had failed most of the tests. We were waiting for our final interview with the Recruitment Officer, when he came out he told me he was accepted. Why you may ask! He had his Masters Degree in whatever.

There are two levels of Recruitment - those the military need despertaly(trades) and those that don't(no trade)
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Run down to the GM plant in Oshawa and drop your name in and see if you are employed within 6 months.......

Obviously that is not feasible since I live no where near Ontario.

GUNS said:
I had a very good job at the time so Reg's were not an option. Reserve's would allow me to keep my job and still spend time in uniform. After I turned down their offer of joining the Reg's, I had to wait seven months before the Reserves called me. SEVEN MONTHS.

You know where I told them to stick their job.

By the sounds of it, you were a good recruit and it is really is sad that they turned you off from re-joining.
Have you considered re-rejoining?
 
I still absoloutly fail to grasp why some people think they are so important that others should jump just because they want something.

From the time I put my name in for my present occupation to the time I actually started was 14 months...........Did I whine and cry about it? No, I did something else and realized I just wasn't that important to them at the time, so bigwhoopin' deal, ....they finally called and 17 years later I'm still plying the same trade so I guess I was worth the wait. [and visa versa]
 
I think Three, Six, or Twelve months waiting is justifiable for a career,
From Enfield.

Well, speaking for myself, if an employer told me that they might have a position available in 3,6 or 12 months my immediate reaction would be to politely say thankyou, inform them that I might still be interested in 3,6 or 12 months and then go look for another employer.  Funny things happen then, for example, people actually discovering that they can live without their previous dream employer and are quite happy with their new circumstances.
 
What exactly does the CFRC consider baggage? Are we talking criminal, financial,  in addition to medical issues, illegal drug use, poor education, etc. 

a family?  That is just a dumb thing to say.
 
kincanucks said:
a family?  That is just a dumb thing to say.

Well I don't see it as a dumb thing to say. My question was totally legitimate. We(recruits) do not know if the CFRC would consider a family "baggage"...that is why I asked. It is better to have you clarify what you were saying than to assume something that isn't true, right?
A few on here still believe the "if the army wanted you to have a wife, they would have issued you one"....also, according the the human rights commission in April 2001, there were two female CF members who felt they were discriminated because they had a family.

Jennifer Smith of Trenton, Ontario alleges that her employer, the Canadian Forces, discriminated against her by failing to accommodate her on the basis of marital and family status. Ms. Smith, an administrative clerk with the Forces, is married to a Forces officer. She says the Forces repeatedly turned down her requests for a co-location posting with her husband. When she did eventually receive the co-location with her husband, he was soon transferred and the Forces again refused to transfer her.

Paula McInnis of Victoria alleges that her employer, the Department of National Defence, discriminated against her because of her sex, disability, and family and marital status and by failing to provide her with a harassment-free workplace. Ms. McInnis, who worked at DND as a technician, claims that male co-workers with less experience were sent on courses ahead of her, thus limiting her promotional opportunities. She also says her supervisor made derogatory comments about her, her husband and their family life. Ms. McInnis says that DND's managers made derogatory comments toward women and allowed the circulation of documents that were demeaning to women.


http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/media_room/news_releases-en.asp?id=189&content_type=2
 
according the the human rights commission in April 2001, there were two female CF members who felt they were discriminated

Results??........
 
Bruce, sorry if I caught you at this time of the month. Mine was not a whine or complaint. I just stated the facts as they pertain to me. One will have to wonder DND's purpose in offering me a position with the Reg's, with a month start date as opposed to waiting seven months for the Reserves. Both share the same information on me, I passed all the required testing, both needed mechanics in the worst kind of way.

"Mine is not to reason why"
 
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