CFHA Residential Housing Unit (RHU)-old PMQ [MERGED]

[Brad Sallows]

Yes, the market in principle will provide housing.

What effect does relocation of a battalion have in the short term?  I would love to have some disposable income to snap up some homes when a unit changes lodgings and leaves.  (Tough luck on the equity, soldier.)  I would love to be in some possession of some vacant housing when a unit changes lodgings and arrives.  (It's called supply and demand, soldier, and the supply is short right now.)

 

[pbi]

I was once a 100% convert to the idea of PMQs. I am not so sure anymore. Here is a question: if we say that op effectiveness of a unit is affected by family support issues (not an unreasonable situation in an Army with a high proportion of married soldiers), then we probably would also say that having a safe and secure place for one's dependents to live is a "family support issue", too, right?

OK. So-if we call up a Res unit for action (be quiet for a minute and listen....) and send it away, will it be any less effective because NONE of its members live in a military community, or even live near each other at all?  I don 't consider that living in distant neighborhoods in the same city (ie Westwood and Transcona, or Etobicoke and Scarborough) is living "near each other".

Is the issue that they live in a military community, or that we offer high quality family support to ALL familiies, pretty much as we try to do now? Cheers.

 

[bossi]

"Aren't there any benefits to esprit de corps and unit cohesion from a feeling of community ... ?"
Sure - but at what cost? How about the 20% Reservists on msns?

Is the issue that they live in a military community, or that we offer high quality family support to ALL familiies, pretty much as we try to do now?

Excellent/valid points, however ...
Much empirical data exists (and increasingly so) about reservists suffering more following their return from overseas operations - I posit that this is due to a lack of support groups that would more readily be found in a more closely knit community (i.e. in the same manner that a reservist doesn't have quite the same peer support group when talking to other employees at their civilian workplace, as opposed to others who were on tour, the dependants of reservists are similarly isolated from isolated from the support network of other families going through the same experiences - full credit goes to the MRFCs for their get-togethers and mailing both while the troops are overseas and afterwards, by the way - they've taken a page from history ...).

I say that because I recall my family talking about the Regimental families getting together during and after the Second World War - this, from a Militia battalion whose members were literally scattered all over and around Toronto due to the simple fact they were all citizen soldiers prior to Sep 1939.

"A bit pregnant"?  Sure.  However, it's just like saying somebody "is a bit messed up" post-deployment.
In order to see the road ahead, it's often useful to look in the rearview mirror to see where we've been.

Ajax, Ontario was largely built as housing for soldiers returning from overseas and continuing their education (and also named after HMS Ajax, but I digress ...).  There are a number of papers recently written identifying the differences between the post-war experience, and modern day "penny-packeting" of invisible veterans (even Veterans Affairs realises there's a problem).

Sorry - I remain convinced that a "one size fits all" solution such as completely divesting DND of PMQs would be a mistake of huge proportions (i.e. a "bureaucratic, civilian mandarin mentality" solution to a soldier's problem ... sorta like "alternate service delivery", eh ... ?  Now THERE is a brainfart of epic proportions ... civilianising so many positions that we've lost critical mass vis-a-vis having a proportionate number of jobs for soldiers to do between operations ... and reducing the total number of soldiers available for taskings ... okay - I'd better get back on topic ...) 

Just because historical solutions to housing for soldiers and their families are old-fashioned does NOT mean they are ineffective - sometimes the "wisdom of the ages" carries on.
Sometimes what seems to be a brilliant idea is merely a flash in the pan.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If you wanted to study the effect of mobilizing a reserve unit, you would need to include in the data the fact that reservists generally also don't relocate as frequently as regulars and consequently have more time to integrate into their civilian communities.  There is also the increased likelihood that reservists have long-term friends or family reasonably nearby.

 

[Long in the tooth]

In my four postings I've never been able to get a PMQ, even though I would've preferred being able to walk to work.  In other words, there was a heavy demand for military housing that was not met.  And what was fair about those in PMQs given three days to pack and load while the rest of us subhumans were granted only two?  When my property taxes are a good fraction of PMQ rents (and rising) it's difficult to have sympathy.

 

[bossi]

Okay, prompted by "pbi", I dug up a proven, historical precedent to support my earlier proposal re: innovative solutions for military housing  - Ajax, Ontario - as fol:

In 1945, World War II ended, but not Ajax. As the young veterans returned home, accommodation was required for thousands of additional university students. Consequently, the University of Toronto leased much of the D.I.L. plant to house the new flood of engineering students. War machines were moved out and the buildings were converted to classrooms and laboratories. The residences that had housed war workers now housed university students. All the facilities of the University of Toronto were duplicated at Ajax. By 1949, the last year of the University of Toronto, Ajax Division, some 7,000 engineering students had received their basic training here.

But what was to become of Ajax? Many people who worked or lived in Ajax during D.I.L. or university days wanted to remain here. Due largely to the vision of George W. Finley of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, Ajax became a planned modern community using the war time base for its post-war foundation. The sword was now beaten into ploughshares. Post-war Ajax began its growth.

Industry and people came from everywhere to take advantage of the many assets of Ajax - its schools, its churches, its hospital, its steam plant, its comprehensive planning, its geography - close to Toronto but setting a separate pace - and its friendly, industrious, involved citizens.

 

[pbi]

Hmmmm-where does that leave us, bossi? Cheers

 

[bossi]

Hmmmm-where does that leave us, bossi? Cheers

You win vis-a-vis being correct about Ajax originally being housing for wartime workers.
I win because it's also a documented example of a viable solution for military housing.

Moving right along ... here's reference to living conditions ...

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/10/29/691449.html

SANTA TO HELP ARM TROOPS
BUT IT'S TOYS, NOT GUNS, SOLDIERS' FAMILIES NEED
By Stephanie Rubec, Ottawa Bureau - Fri, October 29, 2004

MILITARY BASES across Canada are aiming to bring a little holiday cheer to soldiers and their families. Padres, military resource centres and good Samaritans are banding together to buy Christmas hampers and toys for the families of low-ranking soldiers.

At CFB Cold Lake, Alta., for instance, a silent auction will be held Nov. 24 in hopes of raising about $10,000 to buy turkeys and all the trimmings for soldiers.

FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY

Sheila Firth-Warlund, a Cold Lake Madre, said what money is left over will be made available to soldiers in financial difficulty.

"There are people who are struggling to make ends meet," Firth-Warlund said. "Especially at the lower ranks, the salary isn't very high."

Firth-Warlund said tops on her needy list are new recruits who earn a private's base salary of $26, 616.

With the push in recruiting over the past years, today's privates often have a family, or are single parents struggling to make ends meet.

"All you've got to do is do the math. How are they going to have anything left over for Christmas?" said Elizabeth McCarthy, the co-ordinator for CFB Trenton's Angela Hayden adopt-a-family program.

"We have a lot of older privates and that's who we'll be looking after again this year."

McCarthy said many military families get into financial troubles because they're moved to a new base every three years and face the costs of starting over in a new community.

'DOWN ON THEIR LUCK'

"They have nowhere to turn for help," she said. "Welfare doesn't want to look at them, the soup kitchens don't want to look at them and the Knights of Columbus say they're not eligible."

Trenton's St. Paul High School has launched its annual fundraiser to buy Christmas hampers and gifts for soldiers and their families.

Last Christmas, about 40 military and civilian families received a turkey and many got gifts, McCarthy said.

"The same thing happens to military families as it does to people on the street. They get down on their luck," she said.

 

[pbi]

Ok-bossi: fair. We'll split one. Your choice: come out to the 'Peg when I'm on HLTA in Dec, or we'll take a rain check till next time  I'm back in the Big Smoke. Cheers.

 

[GerryCan]

Out of 3 PMQ's I've had, I've never had one with a mold problem, frozen food in cupboards or any major sewer malfunctions.
Actually CFHA is probably one of the better landlords I've had. I had a pipe burst at 6pm on a friday and I called housing and they had someone there by 20 after. I can't seeing that happening as promptly with most civie landlords.  Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never heard of any one else in Pet with any crazy problems like mentioned before.
Yeah the rent is a little high that's for sure, and the increasing rates are getting old fast but all in all I can't complain too much.
Don't get me wrong though, I do plan on buying as soon as this next tour is up for the simple fact that I hate living on the base, but again, can't complain.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Talk about dumps

MILITARY WIFE FIGHTS FOR BETTER HOUSING ON BASE
By STEPHANIE RUBEC, OTTAWA BUREAU

A MILITARY wife is turning up pressure on the feds to improve living conditions in military housing where occupants were slapped with up to $100 rent hikes today. Sheri Gauthier is setting up a Web site to shed light on the poor conditions of military homes after her petition condemning the living situation was supported by thousands.

" I didn't think that it would keep going with so much momentum," said Gauthier who has lived on seven Canadian bases and is now at CFB Cold Lake, which she ranks as the nicest base so far.

Gauthier hopes that by airing the dismal condition of military homes, the feds will be embarrassed into action.

The defence department says about half the military homes are in dire need of repair and plagued with black mould, poor insulation and drafts.

"We are familiar with this issue and it is becoming less and less common as houses are being upgraded," said Tina Crouse, defence department spokesperson.

Crouse said that in 2005 about 190 units at nine bases will be completely upgraded to today's standards and every home is eligible for emergency and health and safety repairs.

MARKET PRICE

Soldiers and their families from Halifax to B.C. complain they are paying steep rents for homes that don't meet today's standards.

Treasury Board requires that all military housing be brought in line with local market prices, provoking big rent hikes.

"What is shocking and disgusting are the decrepit houses and accommodations that these military personnel have to live in and pay the same rent their civilian counterparts pay for more modern housing," retired warrant officer Mike Fournier said.

"Many houses are subject to damp or flooding basements, doors and windows improperly sealed and black mould growing inside the wall causing potentially dangerous living conditions," said a soldier who asked not to be named.

A military wife said that because of the poor insulation "we once had our couch freeze to the wall on base in Calgary."

 

[PPCLI Guy]

"What is shocking and disgusting are the decrepit houses and accommodations that these military personnel have to live in and pay the same rent their civilian counterparts pay for more modern housing," retired warrant officer Mike Fournier said.

So rent a civie house....

 

[McG]

Took my daughter out for Haloween last night.  She could not get the door bell to work at one of the PMQs, so I knocked for her.  At least, I tried to.  My hand knocked the door open without even enough force to make a sound.  I pulled the door shut (properly) and tried again.  Again the door popped open.  That's quality housing there.

 

[pbi]

Crouse said that in 2005 about 190 units at nine bases will be completely upgraded to today's standards and every home is eligible for emergency and health and safety repairs.

I sincerely hope the latter statement is correct. In 2001, at the Oakville PMQ site of ASU Toronto, I waited nearly two months for a "health and safety" repair to my house. After numerous phone calls(including to the national emergency this was eventually done. A great part of the problem, IMHO, was the removal of the CE Det from the site, and its replacement with an apparently dysfunctional contracting system that had subcontractors driving in from miles away (ie Barrie to Oakville) to do work. I hope things are better. Cheers.

 

[OLD F of S]

                  Rent a civie house sounds like LET THEM EAT CAKE.

 

[rifleman]

So rent a civie house....

Leadership Technique #1

If a subordinate raises an issue that needs to be dealt with, tell him to get another job

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Rent a civie house sounds like LET THEM EAT CAKE.

Leadership Technique #1
If a subordinate raises an issue that needs to be dealt with, tell him to get another job

Gents,

You both know that is not how I meant it.  I was just struck by the statement that civies renting houses were getting a much better house for the same amount of rent - which led me to the conclusion that it would make more sense to rent a civie house.

 

[McG]

Assuming that the civilian housing market has houses to be rented.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

haha your Marie Antoinette.

 

[pbi]

PPCLI Guy: to the guillotine with you, you cake-eating, champagne-swilling oppressor of the masses!!

I know what you meant, but the other guys are right: it didn't come across very well.

However, having finally (after 20 years of PMQs) bought a small house in the Peg, and paying less for mortgage and taxes than I paid to rent a sub-standard PMQ in Oakville, I would encourage any service couple who can afford it to get out of the Qs and into the housing market. It is highly dependent on where you live and obviously on your income level (I would never even have dreamed of it as a Lt or junior Capt...) but if you can see your way, go for it. I can guarantee you will not want to go back. Cheers.