CFHA Residential Housing Unit (RHU)-old PMQ [MERGED]
- Thread starter Redneck052
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My guess: Probably they are looking at a comparable neighborhood. If they went west a bit and used St Albert, nobody could ever afford to live in PMQs. Strathcona, being a mainly rural area with smaller communities like Morinville,may not be considered as a comparable neighborhood. The nearest large stock of housing of similar age, condition, etc would be found in the City of Edmonton. Just my guess.
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This is ridiculous. I live in the SQ in Borden, they arnt that bad, but they already hiked up our rates $10 a month this year, now they want to do it again? For starters they could use a thermostat to control the heaters instead of turning them on is october and letting them go full out until april, that would save a ton of money.You know its bad when you have to open your windows in the middle of a winter blizzard to cool down your room to a comfortable level. I'v only been in one PMQ on base, and it was a mess, but the people who lived there were very messy, so its hard to tell. I heard about a fire in the PMQ's a couple years ago. I geuse to to very bad construction, an electrical fire started in teh basement, and due to the construction of the house, the fire flashed through the walls and in a few minutes the hole house was on fire. From what i have heard, nothing was done to the existing PMQ's.
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I know when I lived in Borden on Sask.Blvd,the Q I lived in was drafty and leaky.Heat was my biggest expense.It was killer.At least where I'm at now,heat is included,thank god!
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source, Toronto Sun http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/10/25/684165.html
Mon, October 25, 2004
Grunts stiffed again
Soldiers face up to $100 a month more for housing
By STEPHANIE RUBEC, OTTAWA BUREAU
Borden renters feel 'absolutely 2nd class'
CANADA'S cash-strapped soldiers living in military homes will see their rents hiked by up to $100 on Nov. 1. Defence department spokesman Tina Crouse said the Canadian Forces Housing Agency will increase rents on bases across the country to bring them in line with surrounding rental prices.
"For the small number of occupants who have not reached appraised shelter values, their rent will continue to increase until they are paying based on the appraised value of their home," Crouse said.
PAY INCREASE APRIL '03
Crouse said about half the military's 15,000 homes and apartments will see a rent increase to a monthly maximum of $100.
The boost comes while soldiers haven't seen their pay increased since April 2003, when they received a 2.5% hike. The lowest-paid private makes $26,616, while a sergeant can receive a maximum salary of $53,484.
Crouse said those rents that are in line with local prices won't be hiked, and some could be lowered if there's been a drop in the rental market.
The agency began increasing rents in 1997 on orders from the Treasury Board. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. evaluates the value of the home and sets the rent amount.
But CMHC doesn't take into account the substandard construction of many military houses, where poor insulation means skyrocketing heating bills and frozen food in the cupboards.
Some bases are under a boil-water order. And soldiers complain that exterior renovations are only done on homes near busy streets or tourist attractions.
Tory MP Jay Hill said he's got thousands of names on a petition to freeze military rents until the Liberals authorize necessary repair work.
"It's going to take decades to bring the homes up to an acceptable standard at the rate they're investing in them," Hill said.
About 20% of Canadian Forces members live in military quarters at 23 bases across the country.
Hill said the cash crunch in the military has translated into substandard housing and delapidated bases where lawns aren't mowed and potholes don't get filled.
"We're into the bubble situation where they've been deprived of adequate funds for so many years, all of a sudden you reach a crisis point, and that's what's happened with the housing," Hill said.
Mon, October 25, 2004
Grunts stiffed again
Soldiers face up to $100 a month more for housing
By STEPHANIE RUBEC, OTTAWA BUREAU
Borden renters feel 'absolutely 2nd class'
CANADA'S cash-strapped soldiers living in military homes will see their rents hiked by up to $100 on Nov. 1. Defence department spokesman Tina Crouse said the Canadian Forces Housing Agency will increase rents on bases across the country to bring them in line with surrounding rental prices.
"For the small number of occupants who have not reached appraised shelter values, their rent will continue to increase until they are paying based on the appraised value of their home," Crouse said.
PAY INCREASE APRIL '03
Crouse said about half the military's 15,000 homes and apartments will see a rent increase to a monthly maximum of $100.
The boost comes while soldiers haven't seen their pay increased since April 2003, when they received a 2.5% hike. The lowest-paid private makes $26,616, while a sergeant can receive a maximum salary of $53,484.
Crouse said those rents that are in line with local prices won't be hiked, and some could be lowered if there's been a drop in the rental market.
The agency began increasing rents in 1997 on orders from the Treasury Board. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. evaluates the value of the home and sets the rent amount.
But CMHC doesn't take into account the substandard construction of many military houses, where poor insulation means skyrocketing heating bills and frozen food in the cupboards.
Some bases are under a boil-water order. And soldiers complain that exterior renovations are only done on homes near busy streets or tourist attractions.
Tory MP Jay Hill said he's got thousands of names on a petition to freeze military rents until the Liberals authorize necessary repair work.
"It's going to take decades to bring the homes up to an acceptable standard at the rate they're investing in them," Hill said.
About 20% of Canadian Forces members live in military quarters at 23 bases across the country.
Hill said the cash crunch in the military has translated into substandard housing and delapidated bases where lawns aren't mowed and potholes don't get filled.
"We're into the bubble situation where they've been deprived of adequate funds for so many years, all of a sudden you reach a crisis point, and that's what's happened with the housing," Hill said.
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Toronto Sun again http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/10/25/684167.html
Borden renters feel 'absolutely 2nd class'
Grunts stiffed again
By JASON BOTCHFORD, TORONTO SUN
Grunts stiffed again
MILITARY PERSONNEL at CFB Borden say they are being treated like second-class soldiers as another year brings yet another rent hike. Having his rent go up $100 -- 14% -- next month is nothing new for Phil Hoolboom.
The Canadian military aviation technician has suffered through similar rent increases -- which are just about unheard of in the civilian world -- every year since he was posted to CFB Borden four years ago.
When he arrived from Saskatchewan in 2000 his rent was $300. On Nov. 1 it will be $800. On a fixed income, the rapid increase has had a dramatic impact on his quality of life
"It's going to be a lean Christmas this year," Hoolboom, 43, who has two young children and another on the way, said yesterday.
Hoolboom and many others who live at CFB Borden, near Barrie, are incredulous that their rent is set to the going rate of nearby civilian subdivisions.
THEIR HOUSING IS OLD
The problem, they said, is that their aluminum-siding bungalows are more than 40 years old and substandard.
"For us to pay the same as they do in downtown Barrie in new homes is outrageous," Hoolboom said.
It costs the Hoolboom family $185 a month to heat the house in the winter. His wife Anna said they "absolutely feel second class."
Residents at Borden said rent increases are a money grab and all profit as the homes were paid off decades ago.
"They are going to make more in the next two months rent then these homes cost to build," said technician Dan Reardon.
"There is no way you could ever get $500 in rent for these places if they were in (nearby) Angus or Barrie," said Reardon. "It's just not worth it for me to pay rent here when I could be paying down a mortgage. They are driving people into the housing market. But the problem with buying a house is that I am going to get burned when I'm posted somewhere else and forced to sell."
Borden renters feel 'absolutely 2nd class'
Grunts stiffed again
By JASON BOTCHFORD, TORONTO SUN
Grunts stiffed again
MILITARY PERSONNEL at CFB Borden say they are being treated like second-class soldiers as another year brings yet another rent hike. Having his rent go up $100 -- 14% -- next month is nothing new for Phil Hoolboom.
The Canadian military aviation technician has suffered through similar rent increases -- which are just about unheard of in the civilian world -- every year since he was posted to CFB Borden four years ago.
When he arrived from Saskatchewan in 2000 his rent was $300. On Nov. 1 it will be $800. On a fixed income, the rapid increase has had a dramatic impact on his quality of life
"It's going to be a lean Christmas this year," Hoolboom, 43, who has two young children and another on the way, said yesterday.
Hoolboom and many others who live at CFB Borden, near Barrie, are incredulous that their rent is set to the going rate of nearby civilian subdivisions.
THEIR HOUSING IS OLD
The problem, they said, is that their aluminum-siding bungalows are more than 40 years old and substandard.
"For us to pay the same as they do in downtown Barrie in new homes is outrageous," Hoolboom said.
It costs the Hoolboom family $185 a month to heat the house in the winter. His wife Anna said they "absolutely feel second class."
Residents at Borden said rent increases are a money grab and all profit as the homes were paid off decades ago.
"They are going to make more in the next two months rent then these homes cost to build," said technician Dan Reardon.
"There is no way you could ever get $500 in rent for these places if they were in (nearby) Angus or Barrie," said Reardon. "It's just not worth it for me to pay rent here when I could be paying down a mortgage. They are driving people into the housing market. But the problem with buying a house is that I am going to get burned when I'm posted somewhere else and forced to sell."
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Well we are getting some recognition for being screwed over this. Some public presure to not do this should help.
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Axeman: Not to stir your pot but the way you're describing Lancaster Park makes it sound like the Garrison is miles away from Edmonton. In actual fact the northern city limit abuts the south edge of the base so it is indeed closer to Edmonton than Morinville, or any other nearby town of any size. There is even talk from time to time about the city expropriating the land around the base to bring it into the city, but Strathcona County always resists the idea because they don't want to lose the Grants in Lieu of Taxes the base generates. Considering the amount of development at the North end of 97th Ave in the last several years, you actually have easier access to the some of the "big name" stuff than people who actually live in Edmonton since it's a 5 minute drive (once you're actually off the base) from the Garrison to the shopping area at Namao Corners. 5 years from now the houses and stores will be right at the south edge of the base. The only "amenity" lacking is public transport, which I agree is a huge problem for families, but on the other hand folks living downtown don't have public transport to access the "free/cheap" stuff like the MFRC and Rec Center like the PMQ folks do, not to mention the brand new elementary school which was just built.
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Not to be stirring the pot or anything my point was nice and simple LP is not in edmonton it is outside the city limits we pay insurance rates as to morinville so why are we not paying costs as to morinville . yes i agree the city has grown leaps and bounds north and there again is talk of approriating the land .there have been many services thrown up towards the base . but the statement that rings true is we are not part of the EDMONTON CITY but the greater area
S
Storm
Guest
beach_bum said:Here in Vancouver, the PMQs are in a great area! In fact, it's so great, that we are surrounded by million dollar homes. You can just imagine what that does to our rent, being based on the local economy and all. People who live in this area make about 5 times what I do! The base shelter value for my home is over $1100!!!!! Thankfully, they can't charge us more than 25% of our pay! Even still, I pay over $800 for this lovely non-insulated leaky PMQ. :The response we get whenever we complain is move and go live on the economy. Then.....in order to live somewhere I could afford I would have a 2 hour commute to work.
2 hrs??? East Van to Jericho (assuming that's where the work is) would take 45 min max by bus or 15 min by car. Less if you're going to Seaforth. :dontpanic: (sorry, couldn't resist)
Honestly though, this housing thing is disgusting. As sick as it is that I'm actually having such a thought, it's too bad the fire was on a sub and not in the PMQ's (though it's even more unfortunate that it takes an event such as that to draw actual attention to military issues). I think we should start another petition as well: MP's must live in PMQ's, or at least stay in them rather than hotels when travelling. See how long it takes for them to be made liveable then...
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Storm said:
I could not afford a house even in East Van.....at least not anything I would have my child live in. To find a safe, clean house and neighborhood that I could afford would put me out in Maple Ridge or Abbotsford.
S
Storm
Guest
And that's why I wasn't being serious.beach_bum said:
Oops, hadn't thought of that.Sh0rtbUs said:
I take that suggestion back.Military housing is in the hands of a bureaucratic agency called the Canadian Forces Housing Agency
which, like all Federal bureaucracies was created with great intentions which were never realized.
Used to be that PMQ's were administered by the Chief Administrative Officer with a staff, and
maintained by the "works and bricks" people in Construction Engineering. PMQ's were in short
supply and hard to get into, but were comfortable, well maintained and were an integral part
of the Base community - but managed under the direction ultimately of the Base Commander
and his staff. The value of these structures should be determined by liason with CMHC, based
on their assessment criteria, and not "market driven". In Halifax, houses that I know cost about
$35,000. to build in the 1960's are now selling in many cases in excess of $200,000. and that
artificial increase in value is what drives the cost of public (military) housing up, according to
DND bureaucrats, who do not occupy sub standard military housing, and should know better.
Ironically, the same problem is reported from time to time in the US Military - the Military.com
site is an excellent source of information and opinion about the US Armed Forces. MacLeod
which, like all Federal bureaucracies was created with great intentions which were never realized.
Used to be that PMQ's were administered by the Chief Administrative Officer with a staff, and
maintained by the "works and bricks" people in Construction Engineering. PMQ's were in short
supply and hard to get into, but were comfortable, well maintained and were an integral part
of the Base community - but managed under the direction ultimately of the Base Commander
and his staff. The value of these structures should be determined by liason with CMHC, based
on their assessment criteria, and not "market driven". In Halifax, houses that I know cost about
$35,000. to build in the 1960's are now selling in many cases in excess of $200,000. and that
artificial increase in value is what drives the cost of public (military) housing up, according to
DND bureaucrats, who do not occupy sub standard military housing, and should know better.
Ironically, the same problem is reported from time to time in the US Military - the Military.com
site is an excellent source of information and opinion about the US Armed Forces. MacLeod
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The thing that really gets my ire in this housing situation is CFHA's stance. SCONDVA interviewed the CEO of CFHA earlier this year, and the proceedings were televised on CPAC. During the interview the CEO, Olga Massicotte, told the committee outright that if members are unsatisfied they can move on the economy. A terribly effective solution if you ask me. Be a pretty sweet job to direct 16,000 empty units.
Now I realize that there are Treasury Department regulations governing how they operate. I also understand that the government wants out of that market. And there are probably a number of other reasons that could be listed justifying the rent increases, from the government perspective that is. The one thing I cannot accept is the behaviour of CFHA. To my mind, that attitude of "if you don't like it leave" is terribly disrespectful. We are all part of the same organization.
Not that I would expect a mandarin to really grasp the finer points of the military's ethos....
Now I realize that there are Treasury Department regulations governing how they operate. I also understand that the government wants out of that market. And there are probably a number of other reasons that could be listed justifying the rent increases, from the government perspective that is. The one thing I cannot accept is the behaviour of CFHA. To my mind, that attitude of "if you don't like it leave" is terribly disrespectful. We are all part of the same organization.
Not that I would expect a mandarin to really grasp the finer points of the military's ethos....
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Heretic time....
What the heck are we doing in the housing business anyway? We have to be the world's worst landlords (which is, in a way, reassuring). We need to focus on our corps competency, which is creating and employing combat power. Given enough forewarning, the market will provide housing much more efficiently than the CF ever could. I say we announce that 3 years from now, MQs will all be sold. Then give soldiers a rent allowance (a la PLD) to ensure that they can look after their families, and be done with it. By then, rental units will be available in places like Shilo and Pet ('cus if there is a market, someone will provide the product/service) and we can focus on what we do, instead of where we live.
Now I know that I am about to be eviscerated for the following:
1. I am a LCol - easy for me to say. Well, I rent in TO - cus I have to (my training wife has a nice house...) and I can afford to thanks to PLD.
2. What about support to deployed families? Well, if only 30% of pers live in MQs, how are we serving the other 70%?
3. What about Van (or TO, or Mtl, or whatever)? Well, simply increase the PLD.
4. No one will build houses in Pet / Shilo etc. Well, if there is a demand, it will be filled - and hence the 3 year lag time. pers in Pet are moving back into MQs to cash in on the real estate market...
Dave
What the heck are we doing in the housing business anyway? We have to be the world's worst landlords (which is, in a way, reassuring). We need to focus on our corps competency, which is creating and employing combat power. Given enough forewarning, the market will provide housing much more efficiently than the CF ever could. I say we announce that 3 years from now, MQs will all be sold. Then give soldiers a rent allowance (a la PLD) to ensure that they can look after their families, and be done with it. By then, rental units will be available in places like Shilo and Pet ('cus if there is a market, someone will provide the product/service) and we can focus on what we do, instead of where we live.
Now I know that I am about to be eviscerated for the following:
1. I am a LCol - easy for me to say. Well, I rent in TO - cus I have to (my training wife has a nice house...) and I can afford to thanks to PLD.
2. What about support to deployed families? Well, if only 30% of pers live in MQs, how are we serving the other 70%?
3. What about Van (or TO, or Mtl, or whatever)? Well, simply increase the PLD.
4. No one will build houses in Pet / Shilo etc. Well, if there is a demand, it will be filled - and hence the 3 year lag time. pers in Pet are moving back into MQs to cash in on the real estate market...
Dave
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PPCLI Guy said:
Aren't there any benefits to esprit de corps and unit cohesion from a feeling of community ... ?
Also, consider the added (unnecessary?) hardships imposed upon dependants while their spouses are overseas if they're arbitrarily scattered to the four corners of the civilian housing market ... (remember to consider the entire rank spectrum).
Perhaps a viable alternative could be a compromise ... ?
(also keeping in mind "one size doesn't fit all" ...)
A designated/"sponsored" sub-division of lease-to-own homes/condo's/whatever. A little bit like the "company store", but at least it could simulate a sense of community.
At present we have many examples of "public housing" developments - yes, some turn into ghetto's, but others provide an oasis from REAL slums.
