BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]

[Nfld Sapper]

Unfortunately you're probably right, but you'll never see that sort of thing again in Canada. It went from a gradual creep to what we have today.
Even the reserves (naval) who went from unit training to a equivalent is now most likely going back to the units again, which will downgrade the product produced at the end of the day in my opinion.

That is going to happen... and gasp.... you might be sending them on Local Army BMQ's too....

 

[Stoker]

That is going to happen... and gasp.... you might be sending them on Local Army BMQ's too....

If they do its going to be a step back in my opinion, not being on a local ARMY BMQ but the equivalency.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Everything is going to be lined up with what is taught at CFLRS for BMQ.

 

[Stoker]

Everything is going to be lined up with what is taught at CFLRS for BMQ.

As long as its equivalent should be no problem, then again send everyone to St.Jean and be done with it if the capacity exists. I liked it much better when our guys went to Borden.

 

[aesop081]

if the capacity exists.

It does not.

 

[Stoker]

It does not.

That's too bad.

 

[Jarnhamar]

MCG, fair points. I'll ask the sgt to clarify next time I see him. I'll also ask him to jump on here and explain from a more 1st hand POV.

 

[Intrepidus]

You'll have to pardon my language, but for fuck sakes!  I've never owned a Cell phone, Ipod, Laptop, or PDA and I'm 25. 

People VR'ing because of cell phone withdrawal, oh my good lord.  This is the end of humanity.

 

[Tank Troll]

That's true but some would like a return of the hard, no BS type of training that Cornwallis once had.

I have know idea what the training was like when you went through Cornwallis, but there was TONS of BS on my course. My Mcpl use to come in every Monday and Tuesday morning after watching the NFL and brag about how good of a punter he would be and proceed to practice by kicking the metal selves in our lockers to see if he could knock them all off in one kick. He like using our black berets to wipe the floor because they showed dust better. He kicked appart my bunk bed and though it out the second story window and told my bunk mate and I to bring it back up the same way it went out. He couldn't teach drill, every class he would turn around and look in his hat to see what to do next then yell at us because he gave the order wrong and we couldn't read his mind. As bad as he was the Sgt was worse. So yeah no BS in Cornhollis. :

 

[Braver.Stronger.Smarter.]

I realize I'm a little late to the party here  :deadhorse:  but it seems to me that the majority of this thread is based off of fairly vague information. After reading over the thread, I noticed a few things and I'll try to present my thoughts in an organized and intelligent manner. I realize there's strong opinions about this subject but this is what I've seen first hand.

I'll preface this by saying that I was on one of the trial platoons. I survived. I also would have survived without my cellphone. However, I don't think that allowing electronics is a bad idea.

One of the main issues that I've seen brought up over this thread is the belief that recruits will have access to their electronics at all times and that this will distract them from training. The rules set out for the platoon I was on were that electronics stayed in our rooms at all times during the training day. After that there were limitations on what we were allowed to do. No games, no movies, no posting pictures of BMQ on Facebook and a limit on the amount of time that one could spend on their phone per night. I'm certainly not saying that those rules were followed by everyone on platoon but most did follow them and they seemed to work well. Does anyone know if those same rules were implemented for the new platoons being allowed electronics or are they under different guidelines?

Several people mentioned that recruits don't need to be checking Facebook all the time and, if they have a true emergency, they will be provided with a phone. I can say from experience that Facebook was not as great an issue as most of you seem to perceive. The majority of people on my platoon that had smartphones used them mainly for calling home and doing online banking. For those that did have emergencies, yes, a phone would have been provided but how much easier is it to deal with issues on your own time? Getting personal issues dealt with solely through the chain of command is not as easy as it's being made out to be. Also, all time spent dealing with personal issues with the help of instructors is time taken away from other activities. Your wife is having financial issues due to you being away? You'll end up taking time out to speak to staff, see a padre, see clerks to get pay issues resolved…all this takes away from training time. Call your wife after hours and get all the information so you only need to visit the clerks once? Simple. From what I saw, allowing the recruits to deal with minor personal issues as they came up instead of waiting until it snowballed into an emergency which (with no electronics) would have required a phone call to the school let the recruits actually focus on their training.

A few things that are, perhaps, less factual than they could be:

1. The platoon that the trial was done on was a warrior platoon. This isn't incorrect in itself but the platoon I was on was definitely brand new recruits. All of us expected to lose our electronics when we got to CFLRS and were very surprised when we were allowed to keep them.

2. Those that didn't VR were lost later due to failing out of future courses. I'm not sure when the other two trial platoons ran but I doubt many, if any, of the people I was on platoon with are done their QL3 course. There simply hasn't been enough time since the trial to see the long-term effects on soldiers and what this means for the military as a whole. That's a study I would be interested in seeing.

3. Recruits were leaving because they weren't allowed to keep their electronics. The one real example that was shown of this was from someone that was on warrior platoon. I'd prefer not to comment on warrior platoon as a whole because there are recruits there that will make quality soldiers but it's also fairly well known that morale and GAFF is fairly low among some recruits in warrior. Perhaps those recruits weren't particularly interested in staying on with the CF for the long run and were just collecting a pay cheque until something prettier came along? One example isn't a lot to go on.

Teamwork

Instructors said that teamwork suffered. This isn't something that is new information to the recruits that were on those platoons. We knew our teamwork was lacking and we were told. Often.
However, I don't believe that lack of teamwork was due to the electronics trial.  A large part of it was due to being in blue sector and being more separated from each other than the typical platoon in green sector. This was one of the things that our instructors warned us about right away and it was something that we saw every day. We were the Hollywood platoon but many of us would have moved to green sector in a heartbeat to fix our teamwork issues.

The instructors can see that the teamwork was bad and can attribute it to the electronics policy. The recruits that were on those platoons saw what went on after-hours and, as one of them, I can say that lack of teamwork wasn't due to electronics usage.


There were, as there always are, people that broke the rules and abused the privileges. However, this happens in regard to every rule and every privilege. The instructors do their best to weed those out, unfortunately a large majority of them stay on, but I really don't think allowing electronics during BMQ under controlled rules is going to have that much of an influence on the final product.

As several have said, this isn't the end of the world. The same outcry happens every time something new is introduced but the CF still picks up and moves along. How will the poor young things survive on deployment without their cellphones? They'll adapt. If there's anything this "new generation" knows, it's change. We've seen enough of it.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

but it seems to me that the majority of this thread is based off of fairly vague information

  Vague information?  Come again???  BulletMagnet is STAFF at CFLRS as well as a respected mbr here on this focum.  Others posting here, on both sides of the argument, probably have been in the CF longer than you've been alive.  90% or more of us probably are wearing issued socks that have more time-in than you.  Thats "vague"?  :

Sorry but I'll take the word of BulletMagnet and the words other staff are telling him over your views and that of other recent CFLRS grads.  YOU and your fellow recruits are exposed to a very small peep-hole view of CFLRS.  Staff get to see the big picture.

I don't think you have enough TI to actually understand the core issue here that people who are concerned, are concerned about.  And that is the reason the Cmdt CFLRS made the decision (or atleast that is my take on it).  This is one of those times you need to listen to "those that know".

I hope all these people who are used to 'being able to access their gadget"...AND their families...don't crumble when that day comes when there is no connectivity.  There are places where you can not take your I-thing or Crackberry, cellphone, etc past the Commissionaire/security checkpoint.  What will these people do then? 

Some of them will wig out because they've had it all this time "I even had it with me in Farmham man/dude/dawg!!".    OR they will just say "I don't have a gadget" and take it into the restricted area. 

Trust me, it will happen. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

As several have said, this isn't the end of the world. The same outcry happens every time something new is introduced but the CF still picks up and moves along. How will the poor young things survive on deployment without their cellphones? They'll adapt. If there's anything this "new generation" knows, it's change. We've seen enough of it.

You REALLY need to go re-read the post ArmyVern put up about the loss of morale-Internet when she was across the pond.  Seriously.

You should have heard the moaning coming from the young troops when our morale wi-fi was terminated in Afghanistan at the end of July. You'd have swore to Gawd that the world was coming to an end.  We have a job to get done on a tight timeling in this WAR ZONE --- you should have higher priorities than this.

So for me, in the real world "experience" of the Canadian Forces - the answer is lots.


I  care about training because after that comes the real world and that is what BMQs and BOTPs are supposed to prepare them for.

Ya, I'm convinced!  Adapting at its best!

Now to me...IF, from the get-go, they are accustomed and conditioned to NOT having the I-thing, Crackberry...maybe they would have focused on more important "stuff"...on operational deployment.

 

[SentryMAn]

As several have said, this isn't the end of the world. The same outcry happens every time something new is introduced but the CF still picks up and moves along. How will the poor young things survive on deployment without their cellphones? They'll adapt. If there's anything this "new generation" knows, it's change. We've seen enough of it.

You have no idea what "change" truly is, nor what hardship is.  The generation that is known as the Baby boomers, have experienced more change in their lives then you will see.

 

[OldSolduer]

If there's anything this "new generation" knows, it's change. We've seen enough of it.

You're getting a bit ahead of yourself. Change? You have no idea how much we've seen....

 

[Scott]

......

Yes, Private!

 

[armyvern]

I actually PMd with Jules yesterday after his post and pointed out much of what is now being said (staff posting / big picture staff sees at CFLRS vs the small picture a recruit sees within their own platoon) to the young Jedi. I received a heartwarming (mom in me) response from him. He gets it. He'll (or she) will do well.

 

[Braver.Stronger.Smarter.]

How about I just reply in chronological order? 

Eye In The Sky

It appears I wasn't clear enough with the initial portion of my post. I didn't at all mean to insinuate that the information that BulletMagnet was presenting was incorrect. I was in fact referring to the general hemming and hawing going on and a few examples that I mentioned were "less than factual." I respect that BulletMagnet has a lot of time in and does have a wider perspective than I do (BulletMagnet, if I offended you in any way that wasn't my intention and I do apologize) I merely wanted to show that, as a recruit that went through the trial, I also have a different perspective that the staff doesn't have. In my opinion, the trial should have been run and information collected from both instructors and recruits before a final decision was made. As was mentioned by BulletMagnet, the staff wasn't given much of an opportunity to voice their opinion and the recruits really didn't have a chance to offer their opinion either. I know there were some in my platoon that would have voiced their opinion against the electronics. Not all of us agreed.

From what you mentioned about ArmyVern's post - I did read it and I can see how this would be an issue. I just don't see that the issue will change much in the future. If it isn't about electronics, it's going to be about something else. There will always be troops that have entitlement issues and I can see how that happens more often now than it did "back in the day" but I see that as a problem with the quality of troops that are being recruited and somehow making it through the initial training, not something that can be solely attributed to the use of electronics.

In regards to your comments about my time in, I know that I don't have a lot of time in. I certainly made no secret of that in my original post as I wanted to show the trial from a recruits point of view. I know I have a lot to learn and I'm willing to learn it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that one of the purposes of these forums? I read the opinions of everyone else, submitted my own opinion after some thought and now I'm reading reactions to that and learning as I go along. I try to keep everything polite and professional in these boards so that I can continue to use them as a learning tool. I do appreciate when people tell me if I overstep my boundaries and am always willing to clarify or explain if needed.

SentryMAn and Jim Seggie

Again, I apologize if it seemed like I was discounting anyone's experience. I've heard the war stories and I know that there are many members here that have seen great change in their lives. However, think of the changes that this young generation of mine have already seen in their lives. We've seen great technological advances that many of you would never have believed were possible when you were our age, we've seen the world erupt after 9/11, we've seen Canada move from a peace-keeping role to a much more active military role, we've seen changes to human rights...think of all that has happened in the last 20 odd years. Think of how much more we will yet see. My comment about change came from a study I read (which is, of course, conveniently unfindable when I really need it  : ) that an average university student has already seen more change in their life than the baby boomer generation has in theirs. In retrospect, I should have qualified what I meant by that statement before I hit the post button.

ArmyVern

Thank you.

 

[Swingline1984]

My comment about change came from a study I read (which is, of course, conveniently unfindable when I really need it  : ) that an average university student has already seen more change in their life than the baby boomer generation has in theirs.

Last time I checked most of the baby boomers were still alive    I'm assuming you meant that the average university student has seen more change within their first 20 years then the average baby boomer did in theirs.  Now twist that concept and put it in the perspective of someone who has been in the military for that same 20 years i.e. I see your 20 and raise you 20, then stop and think what all that change may have meant for them.  Kind of like comparing cabbages and kings isn't it?

 

[kenmnuggas]

I can only imagine what my oldest grandparents went through:
When they were kids, planes didn't exist.
Now we're sending movies across the world using light.

 

[aesop081]

Again, I apologize if it seemed like I was discounting anyone's experience. I've heard the war stories and I know that there are many members here that have seen great change in their lives. However, think of the changes that this young generation of mine have already seen in their lives. We've seen great technological advances that many of you would never have believed were possible when you were our age, we've seen the world erupt after 9/11, we've seen Canada move from a peace-keeping role to a much more active military role, we've seen changes to human rights...think of all that has happened in the last 20 odd years. Think of how much more we will yet see. My comment about change came from a study I read (which is, of course, conveniently unfindable when I really need it  : ) that an average university student has already seen more change in their life than the baby boomer generation has in theirs. In retrospect, I should have qualified what I meant by that statement before I hit the post button.

Keep digging that hole, you're doing great.

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