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Best Air Support ?

FormerHorseGuard said:
2 to 3 years for training, how many  millions of dollars would this eat that  could be put to better use ?
for sake of arguement 2 years to get the planes  and the crews ready for combat, if we start today. that  would be beginning of 2009 before the crew would be ready for in country operations. mandate for operations as of now is 2009, unless the government pushes to extend the troops over there for another 3 years. so the gunship crew is in place for a few months then could be sent home and wait for the order to charge again ? waste of money for equipment, training, and ammo. 

By this logic, why buy any piece of military equipment? "We'll probably only use it for one war, and then send it home again"

Afghanistan is not the last war we will fight, and if we are not prepared to make an investment into a theatre that has already consumed so many men and so much treasure, what are we willing to spend it on? If you really wanted to push it, the same amount of money that we sunk into the Leo C2 upgrade would probably buy a couple of AC 130Us, and (someone correct me if I'm wrong) those Leos never once fired a shot in anger, while the Gunships almost certainly will.
 
HitorMiss said:
Having talked to an Air Force pers who information defeats my own (which isn;t hard when were talking Air Force stuff) It's not worth the money, energy or effort to do anything more then scrap then into pop can's. They havent the hours left to be useful and any mre money really just throwing in into a black hole.

Actually a couple would be of good use as Training Aids for Traffic Techs and Loadies in Borden and at the Parachute Center in Trenton.  Without avionics and engines they would save on construction of simulators and mockups. 

(Yes, I know, Dept of Supply and Services would like to sell them off and recoup a few pennies, then spend a small fortune hiring contractors to construct simulators or mockups.)
 
Even with the introduction of new TAL aircraft - the CF will continue to fly the legacy Herc models for years to come.  NSAR duties will require that at least 16 E/H models stay in the system in order to maintain 24/7 standby. Expect this to last up until 2015.
 
One old Herc was purchased within the past 10 years and it's fuselage was converted to a training aid for air movements personnel at 8 Wing.
The Hercs that are retiring are doing so because of some rather serious structural problems and are  E models with slightly less engine power than the newer H models. They would definitely not be suitable for further service other than as ground trainers.
 
HitorMiss said:
And I have no doubt that the Ground Attack Fighter has it uses, same as the Attack Helicopter, but nothing in my mind has beaten the loiter power of an AC130.

Say we have 1 AC130 in theater and 6 GAF, I call in for CAS now sure that GAF fight will make it their first not even a question, and they will save our butts short term and likely keep us in the fight long enough for the AC130 to arrive but it's ordinance and loiter is limited by allot. Vs the AC130 which conceivably could loiter for hours with out refuel or re arm thus keeping us safe much much longer then the the GAF ever could. Plus as you mentioned it functions out of austere airfields much like the CF-5 and the Grippen.

In terms of bang for your buck CAS the AC130 is the way to go IMO...now bang for your buck in terms of firepower and loiter time, in terms of crew's etc it's and expensive commodity.

So what if we have one in theatre and it's broken, or tending to a Priority One mission when you're Priority Two, or expends its ammo?

Type of airframe doesn't affect coverage much, nor does country of ownership.

And overspecialization isn't good.

Airpower is pooled. The troops on the ground, regardless of nationality, will get what's currently on tap, regardless of nationality. It'll be decided based upon priority, availability, weapon suitability etcetera. Coverage could be provided for many hours if necessary regardless of the specific airframe(s) employed. That singular AC130 may be able to hang around for ten hours or whatever, but that's irrelevant but if the last bullet's gone downrange in the first thirty minutes on station - moseying on home for a reload will take longer than you want. Fighters can remain on station for quite some time with aerial refuelling and can be replaced quickly and continually once engaged. There is a wider variety of weaponry available as well. There's also the B52 loafing around at 30,000 feet with a bellyful of GPS-guided bombs.

A10s were continually on station whenever anything significant was going on during my three Fallexes, and were fed in on fifteen-minute intervals. I've FACed A7s, Mirages, Harriers, CF5s, and probably a few other things on those and other major exs as well - whatever shows up when something is called for.

And while I've not had the benefit of a tour in Afghanistan, my guess would be that "austere" airfield is not a factor. It either operates from a defended airfield with a decent runway, reliable fuel supply, and facilities for servicing, repair, re-arming, and crew rest and feeding or it doesn't operate. "Austere" facilities for light fighters generally means a flat stretch of straight multi-lane highway free of power lines on one's own side of the FEBA in a NATO vs WP type of scenario and some method of providing the aforementioned requirements.

AC130s are neat aeroplanes, but wouldn't provide what you think/want and that sort of limited-use special capability is nowhere near the top of our priority list.
 
Alright, we have the CP-140 Aurora. Yes they were initially used for anti-submarine warfare, but they are also able to take mk-82 bombs in their bomb bay. These bombs alone arent all that accurate, but with minor upgrades the Auroras could be fitted so the mk-82's could be laser guided. This could be very useful flying long range support for coalition troops in afghanistan because of the amount of time these planes can spend n the air at a time. If they wanted to, they would be able to take off from Aviano Italy, fly o Afghanist to do their patrols and then head back... but it would save a lot of fuel money just to take off from Kandahar or other airbases in Afghanistan.  The way i see it is, if we can do it and put it to good use, then why not, it could save the lives of coalition in need.
 
The Mk 82 is not a Laser Guided Bomb.  http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/mk82.htm

The CP-140 would not carry enough of a load to be of much value as a bomber in Afghanistan.  It could be used for surveillance (Arcturus) role to some benefit, but how much is debatable.
 
So for all the trouble it would take to stand up a sqn who is trained in bombing land based targets with the CP-140 why not just use a
CF-18.  It costs millions of dollars just to get something like your suggesting out of the planning stages and into some sort of operational capability.  Count on a year plus to get an aircraft ready. 

We have fast air who in some cases have operational experience dropping bombs in Kosovo.  If the brass was really concerned about our ability to get air support I'm sure they would be considering sending our CF-18.

:cdn:
 
George Wallace said:
The CP-140 would not carry enough of a load to be of much value as a bomber in Afghanistan.  It could be used for surveillance (Arcturus) role to some benefit, but how much is debatable.

We could carry enough bombs to ruin the Taliban's day.  All we have to do is put some in the bomb bay and on the wing stations.  The RNZAF does it ( i've go pictures of the bombing runs) and its been tried on ours in Greenwood ( i have the pics at work).  Also george, the CP-140A Arcturus will never see service overseas as they are being phased out and do not have the new gucci surveillance gear that the CP-140 Aurora has.  Also, how useful the surveillance capability of the CP-140 Aurora is is no longer a matter for debate, the concept was proven in the field, specificaly on EX MAPLE GUARDIAN, and the army loved it.

midget-boyd91 said:
Alright, we have the CP-140 Aurora. Yes they were initially used for anti-submarine warfare, but they are also able to take mk-82 bombs in their bomb bay. These bombs alone arent all that accurate, but with minor upgrades the Auroras could be fitted so the mk-82's could be laser guided. This could be very useful flying long range support for coalition troops in afghanistan because of the amount of time these planes can spend n the air at a time. If they wanted to, they would be able to take off from Aviano Italy, fly o Afghanist to do their patrols and then head back... but it would save a lot of fuel money just to take off from Kandahar or other airbases in Afghanistan.  The way i see it is, if we can do it and put it to good use, then why not, it could save the lives of coalition in need.

As i mentioned in my reply to George, the bomb bay isnt the only place we can mount bombs.  Fly from Aviano ?  Do you realize how far that is from Afghanistan ?  Also, the Aurora has some equipment defficiencies ( which i wont get into) which preclude going over there for now.

Navy_Blue said:
So for all the trouble it would take to stand up a sqn who is trained in bombing land based targets with the CP-140 why not just use a
CF-18.  It costs millions of dollars just to get something like your suggesting out of the planning stages and into some sort of operational capability.  Count on a year plus to get an aircraft ready. 

We have fast air who in some cases have operational experience dropping bombs in Kosovo.  If the brass was really concerned about our ability to get air support I'm sure they would be considering sending our CF-18.

:cdn:

We wouldnt have to stand up a new sqn, the ones we have are capable of taking on that mission.  Training would be required but i dont beleive it would take very long.
 
why not just use a
CF-18

In addition to the IRSTA capability that the CP-140 would bring along with the bomb-load it also brings loiter time.  It can "hover" over the scene for a lot longer than a CF-18, especially if launching from a nearby airfield.
 
Quagmire said:
How defendable is the CP-140?  ie missle counter measures, speed etc.

Also, the Aurora has some equipment defficiencies ( which i wont get into) which preclude going over there for now.

I suspect one has to do with the other...?
 
2Bravo said:
B1. JDAM.  Nuff said.

Howbout CP-140 - JDAM?

Do you really care what truck UPS uses to deliver your parcel?
 
The B1 can get anywhere quickly, so yes, I do care about the delivery service.
 
AC-130 is a specialized capability.  Consider that the US Armed Forces have over ten thousand of aircraft yet only a handful of AC-130s...it is very specialized.  A similar ratio of AC-130's within the CF would actually work out to a very small fraction of one aircraft of our 341 CF aircraft (which doesn't include 36 leased Hawks and Harvard IIs).  It's also about manning and training.

Overall though, I'd say the killer is having crews flying a very specific role that can be reasonably achieved with other means available to the CF.

2 more ¢

Cheers,
Duey
 
Just further comment on the CP-140 bomber concept.

The CP-140 can lift up to 20,000 lbs of "expendable stores" on the 10 wing hard points that aesop081 mentioned as well as its bomb bay. The bombay can carry 8 torpedoes,  8 of the wing hard points can carry 1000 lb loads each with 2 carrying 500 lb loads.  Assuming that each point was only armed with a 500 lb Mk 82 (18 x 500 lb) that would be a payload of 9000 lbs or less than half its potential payload.  That would give it the ability to deliver as much high explosive as 18 Harpoons which have warheads in the 500 lb class.

In dumb mode the CP-140 would have to overfly the target and 50 % of the rounds would land within 200 to 300 m of the target.
The round costs about $1000.

With JDAM and flying at about 25,000 ft the CP-140 could stand off up to 24 km from the target.  Or it could launch at any target within 24 km of its position.
In worst case scenario, with jamming and relying on INS (Inertial Navigation System) 50% of rounds would land within 30m of the target.
In best case, with GPS functioning 50% of rounds will land within 7-13m of the target.
The cost of the round rises to about $12,000

If the US Navy's DAMASK seeker is added at an additional cost of $1-10,000 50% of rounds will land within 3 m of the target. 

If Boeing/MBDA's Diamondback glider wings are added to the bomb to create a JDAM-ER or even, potentially, a DAMASK-ER then the stand-off distance at 25,000 feet is something like 65 km.

At the CP-140s service ceiling of 35,000 ft that would equate to a range approaching 100 km.  Again, the CP-140 could stand off from the target up to 100 km and hit within 3 m or it could hit any target within 100 km of its location at time of launch.  It could also launch against 18 separate targets in that area, simultaneously hitting each with the force of a Harpoon.

At its maximum speed of 750 km/h it can move 100 km in a matter of 8 minutes.  With a 100 km stand off range and a 100 km move that gives it the ability to put supporting rounds anywhere in a 200 km radius in under 10 minutes.

Stingers and similar man-packed SAMs have max ranges of less than 8 km and relatively small warheads.  The CP-140 is a relatively large aircraft.

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/equip/cp-140/intro_e.asp
http://www.history.navy.mil/planes/p-3c.pdf
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/mk82.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/jdam.htm
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?prod=4902&session=dae.22198246.1154807621.RNT3RcOa9dUAADFs3K4&modele=jdc_1
http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/~pacrange/s1/news/2000/DAMASK.htm

The CP-140, and its loiter time and IRSTA system is available, almost.  The "combat stores management system" - the computer, wiring and operator interface similar to that currently installed/being installed in the CF-18, I don't know about.





 
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