• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Why Not The Legion?

When I went home on leave in the early 80's my uncle tried a couple of times to get me in to the local legion as a guest. I got treated like something that should be scraped off a shoe. The legion made it very clear that post 45 service members were not welcome for a long time. They slammed the door in the face of a couple of generations of service people. Good luck trying to get those people to support the Legion now.
 
Tess,

If this is the legion of the 21st Centyury, how come I can't get this computer to serve me beer?

Anyway, I'll throw a couple cents into this one.....I've gone to some RCL's where the membership are so out of touch with their primary purpose, that they don't recognize members of their own country's armed forces.....Not to mention the age / social gap in many cases. It was one thing when you could find WW2 / Korea vets in some of these places, to listen and hoist some beers, but now...It's a little tougher.....

'Fraid I have no suggestions on how to improve it, but allowing serving soldiers and a guest or 2, without having problems 'getting them in' would be a start. Modenizing the looks of some of the places might help too.

My .02
 
There are many things that need to be done to bring the Legion up to modern standards- and to function in accordance with modern lifestyles.  Unfortunately, change takes money and man hours - both of which the Legion is quickly losing due to decreasing membership and an aging membership base.
The Legion should change in order to attract people, and it should beef up its public relations and recruiting.  I agree.  But how will they do this, and who will do it, if no new blood comes in to maintain it?
As long as there are veterans and CF personnel, there will be a need for an organization such as the Legion. Not just for the advocacy, but the comradeship and community benefits, as well.
There is a large, organized, and respected organization just waiting there-a legacy for us.  An organization meant to help us-infrastructure/administration etc.  And while we're waiting for them to fix it up so that it's fit for us to join, it's crumbling.
The majority of members now are getting up there in years.  Average age of a WWII vet is now 82 or so?  Pretty sure on that.  Most of what they do is on a volunteer basis.  I think we're expecting too much of them.
I know that some people have expressed dissatisfaction with the way they were treated by the members of the Legion.  On a grand scale, however, I hope most agree that the Legion has, overall, been around to help veterans and soldiers when they needed it- a few bad apples can't change that, I think.
I don't know...I don't think we can expect them to know what we need or to have the energy to make it happen.  Might be better to get in there and tailor it to our own needs.  Maybe we- our generation-can make a go of it.  Thoughts?

I'll answer my own question by asking straight away- Who has the time?  That's my thought when I think of what Legion members do.  Much of what they do is on a volunteer basis.  That's one problem with modernizing the Legion- younger people have no time and volunteerism is dropping. What to do?
 
This thread drew me out from the shadows. I'm the President of a small, rural Branch of the Royal Canadian Legion in Cape Breton. I've read with interest the comments and criticisms put forward. Most, if not all, I've heard before...and in certain places, at certain times, are true enough.

The Royal Canadian Legion is the largest Veterans Organization in Canada. It is also an important COMMUNITY Organization in many small towns and rural areas throughout this country. It is run according to the bylaws of Dominion Command, the Provincial Command in which the Branch is geographically located , and last but not least, Branch Bylaws.

These Bylaws are proposed, voted on, and either adopted or rejected by the MEMBERS. Any complaints, criticisms, kudos, ideas, or administrative issues can be discussed at a General Meeting where the MEMBERS decide how to deal with the issues at hand.  Members are the heart and soul of this organization, and I invite you to visit your local Legion Branch to discuss the benefits of membership with the President, or one of the Executive Committee members.

Just for your info, the Executive Committee of my Branch has an average age of around 50, and we operate a clean, up to date, modern Branch where it's just as likely you'll see a tableful of young women as a tableful of Vets.

One final point....Membership in the Royal Canadian Legion is is not an Honourary position...it's a WORKING position. Branches work hard for Vererans, serving and former members of the Canadian Forces , their families, and the community at large. Any Branch is only as effective as it's membership.
 
BeachBum said:
I'm the President of a small, rural Branch of the Royal Canadian Legion in Cape Breton.

BeachBum, thank you for adding your perspective.

Just to add some context, there also has to be acceptance that there is a big difference between being in rural Cape Breton and being in a large Canadian city where the competition for both social activities and volunteer opportunities vary greatly in their ability to attract younger Canadians ( current/recent service members or otherwise).

You have found a model that continues to work in what I suspect is a relatively unchanged social environment over the past few decades.  City Branches have not been the same centres for socializing in the same way that I have heard rural Branches described, and the probability that generational participation in the local Legion within families has not been a sustaining factor in the larger centres.  It is in these varying situations that the Legion, whether nationally, within Divisions or at the Branch level, have to work at reestablishing their perceived value to an new potential membership.
 
A quick look (http://www.legion.ca/asp/docs/about/domexec_e.asp) at the "Dominion Executive" reveals few real veterans (even of the broadest category) - and none of the Second World War.  Most have had very limited - if any - actual CF service.  This isn't a criticism of the Legion itself, but rather reflects their comparative inability to attract members who have recently served.  I'll admit, though, that I find the plethora of medals and the use of "Comrade" as an honourific somewhat disconcerting.

Part of the problem is that WW II created a huge population of genuine veterans.  The postwar CF is much, much smaller and cannot sustain Legion branches in every location, despite recent Legion efforts to water down membership requirements in an effort to keep the eligible population up.1  Branches outside large population centres are almost by definition going to decline in "real" membership, as Mike hints at.

I don't think the Legion was ever really intended for serving members.  Instead, it emulates the camaraderie of military life with none of the apparent drawbacks.  Also, as BeachBum points out, the organization has provided tremendous services to both veterans and to the community at large.  I'd certainly want them in my corner if I hand pension problems, for instance.  However, until the thirty-something veteran of three tours in Afghanistan feels comfortable joining and participating, the RCL will continue to have difficulties.

I don't really have a recommended course of action.  It would be a shame if the RCL ceased to exist due to a lack of interest - its part in advocacy is much too important.  However, despite making some effort to attract a younger generation, it is still seen as an "old boy's" club, fighting over turbans and smoking - no matter how critical their part in community life.  Until that impression changes, actual modern veterans will tend to stay away...

My 2 cents.
_______________________

1.  To the point where some requirements are now obsolete and/or repetitive.  See http://www.legion.ca/asp/docs/member/mem_who_e.asp#canord
 
I know that in Red Deer every year at Remembrance Day the veterans are very open and welcome us very warmly, even when this year some of the younger members decided to get a table reserved for our unit and just sit there and get drunk as apposed to visiting with them, they still made there way across the Legion into the corner where our troops had them selves tucked away. I made a point the following parade night to pull them aside and explain my feelings on them reserving a table, the veterans that are the current "Legion Generation" are getting old and will not be with us much longer and my personnel opinion is that they (the troops) have 364 days of the year where they can go and sit in a corner and get drunk with themselves and that Nov 11 they should not be in a corner but out talking with the veterans and hearing what they have to say about how military life was then, perhaps if they knew what it was like then there would be less bitching about little things like a 4 hour fireplan in the snow on a 2 day weekend exercise....Now we just have to wait till next year to see if they took any of it to heart....
 
Michael, to a large degree, your points are certainly valid. The main point I was trying to make is that the changes must be made from within the organization. No amount of tongue wagging or finger pointing from the outside will effect change.

I suspect that most retiring servicemen/women will take up residence in either a semi rural or suburban neighbourhood. Not many will opt to live downtown in a major city.

As far as our business model....it's a work in progress. Small changes are constantly made to reflect changing demographics, provincial laws, attitudes, and financial considerations. We never rest on our laurals and are always exploring new ways of doing business, both on the food and beverage side and service to veterans/community side.



All branches have challenges to overcome that are unique to their geographic location. If our business model was employed in a large urban centre, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the place would be filled to capacity on the weekends, and do fine during the week as well.

 
Command-Sense-Act 105 said:
Hear Hear!  I agree - maybe modernization and evolution is what the Legion needs to do to save itself. 

Thats exactly what it needs, and as I mentioned in a previous post, Australia seen the future coming and did exactly that. I'd like to see the RCL take the RSL's lead and do something similar. If not, the RCL will simply implode (more sooner than later), and it will be history.

Although some large branches in the major cities will survive, many smaller ones are dying now, and some, like in Big River, Sask have already closed.As of July 2004, Regina's was a disgrace, with the only thing going for it, a impressive mural, and informative museum display area. The place smells as it did 30 yrs ago, and is in need of a severe face lift.

Cheers,

Wes
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
I don't think the Legion was ever really intended for serving members.  Instead, it emulates the camaraderie of military life with none of the apparent drawbacks.  Also, as BeachBum points out, the organization has provided tremendous services to both veterans and to the community at large.  I'd certainly want them in my corner if I hand pension problems, for instance.  However, until the thirty-something veteran of three tours in Afghanistan feels comfortable joining and participating, the RCL will continue to have difficulties.

I agree that it doesn't seem suited to serving members.  I know it certainly wasn't something I thought about when I was younger. Busy working, young families- that's what the "who has the time?" is all about.  It does hit home upon release, though.
Anybody ever see a Legion representative member at a SCAN seminar? Or received any info about the Legion during their outclearances?  These are perfect situations to put the 'bug' in a retiring/released members' ear about the Legion.  Might be a start?
It's also not until release that many problems start-pensions, VAC, things you don't think about when you're on the move.  That's when the advocacy value of the Legion becomes apparent- and when the need for a military based community connection arises.
Thanks to Beach Bum, and a few questions.
I'm with you on the changing it from within - and I think the emphasis on the 'working part' is good.  To get a membership is a meaningful gesture, but when people join, it is hoped they will become involved, as well, I suspect.
My in-laws- both very active in an Alberta branch, find that many new enrollees are very gung-ho- and then gradually drift off as the novelty does.  It is hard to balance life and other obligations.  Is this a phenomenon you deal with?  Not to downplay the membership contribution- it's a financial boost and shows support-but do you have a hard time with getting people to commit with their time?
Can you get into a little detail about what members can expect in the way of expected (hoped for) time commitment in your Branch?
 
Hi battleaxe, thanks for your interest. I'll try to give a little perspective on what is expected of a new member as far as participation in Branch activities go.
We hope that all new members become active in Branch activities, but, for a variety of reasons, I find that approximately 30% will give their time over the long term.

I usually attempt to sit down with potential and new enrollees to gauge their level and areas of interest, and perhaps match them up with a person already doing what the new enrollee has expressed interest in. Some new members have no real interest in becoming involved in any of the traditional Legion activities. So be it....you can't win 'em all over.

Without actually witnessing the situation, I would think that if gung ho members are losing their enthusiasm and drifting off...either one of two things are happening...the member has an unrealistic view of what can be accomplished within the Legion..or...the new member is frustrated by something he/she feels is hindering progress in the Branch which the member feels will not be changed. I suspect the second hypothesis is likely closer to the truth than the first...especially if this seems to happen frequently.

We value all volunteer time donated by our members, whether it's one hour or one hundred hours a month. Due to either a members level of interest, family and work obligations, or other reasons, not all members can or are able to give many or in a lot of cases, any volunteer hours. The only thing I require of the Chairperson of the Legion Committee for which a person is volunteering is that the volunteer isn't standing around wondering why they bothered to volunteer in the first place. Nothing gets rid of volunteers quicker than the feeling they are wasting their time. People are always more than willing to give their time if they see that it makes a difference.

I don't know if this helps answer any of the questions you posed...if you need clarification or have any other questions, I'll do my best to address them.

Oh..and one other thing...approximately $30 of your membership dues leaves the Branch you're a member of. Anything over that amount which is charged for Legion Dues is used by the Branch.

 
Thanks very much. 
I'll see how things go when I am sworn in and a little more familiar with the processes-might get back to you about things after that.

Best to you,

Battleaxe
 
The Legion can be a useful tool to both former and current CF members, especially when it comes to benefits and medical pensions or just pensions in general.  Where else can you find a wealth of military experience and knowledge all under one roof?

The last advertisement that I recall seeing within the CF was back in 1998/99 when they were pushing the Military Member At Large (MML) program.  I had heard stories of serving CF members having difficulty in transferring their memberships between branches when they were posted.  So as I am presently not interested in being a participating member in a local branch I opted for the MML (9 years and counting), which has what I am looking for, unfettered access to all Royal Canadian Legions.  The dues I am not concerned with as I know it is going to an organization that I will one day actively support in some way, shape or form or who knows, I may even need them to support me!

So if your interested in being a Legion member without ties to a specific branch.  MML is the way to go!
 
I too have to agree, at our Legion membership and attendance has increased for 2 reasons; the NEW non smoking law in our area and support for our troops overseas. As a family man I like the fact I can take my kids in and not have to worry about allergies of the little ones, and they can even go with 'Grampa' and meet some of the " Ol' Vets" as they call them. One of my co workers is on the exect and has done his best to liven things up & peak public intrests.
The Mess is fine, but it's closed doors & @ times, you just want to go home, eh?
Cheers!
 
When I go out with my husband, we sometimes hit the Legion. Good place to sit back, chat and enjoy the stories and the comraderie. And hey when I feel like dancing, I have no problem dragging one of the guys up with me. Because I will dance to anything. (My husband does not dance BTW).

But when a group of girls from work is heading out, and music and dancing are called for, I find myself at places like Sweetwaters because there is where the type of music and style of dancing the younger generation prefers. The husband stays home.

I guess it all comes down to what the intention behind ones night out is. If I'm looking to burn off energy (thus calories) shaking the bootie...the Legion is not my first choice. When I want to kick back and have a few and relax, the Legion factors into my choice.

I am a member, I do go. Probably not as often as I should. Then again, thanks to army.ca, I don't get out anywhere much anymore!! Blame Mr. Bobbitt.
 
I joined about 25 years ago.  Every summer I got home on leave, I would renew my membership as well as my step-father's.  That was the sum of my attendance as well: A half-hour in Port Arthur Branch 5 to pay our dues and have a drink.  I supported it because it was working for the wartime veterans.

I drop in to other RCLs very seldom, but have never been turned away.  They seem happy to see a card with an 'Early Bird' sticker on it, even one from another branch!

Late 90s, some instructors from CFLRS St Jean attended a small RCL downstream.  It was across the river from an old C-I-L plant and the 'hood now consisted of aging vets who had got a job at C-I-L after WW2, then watched as their sons and daughters left Quebec for good.  Every year they paraded on Remembrance Day, and every year the parade got smaller and smaller.  A great bunch of guys. Some had been Legion members since 1945.

I will continue supporting the Legion.  The money also helps my hometown branch, and the magazine is pretty good.



 
I am a RCL Legion member for the past 7 years and never had a problem with sitting down to enjoy a drink or swap stories with the other members. I have moved with the service and have decided to keep my membership at the same Legion that I registered at. I mail in my fees each year with a letter with my current address and we have all been happy.

When I travel on leave or for work, I have stopped into other Legions. As TCBF mentioned, they enjoy seeing the card with the ealy bird sticker. Sure, sometimes I get an odd look from the regulars to see a 30 odd year old walking in, but the mood is changing as our definition of vetrans changes. At worst I sit down and chat with the guys fo awhile and by the time I walk out they were happy I stopped in.
 
Well after quite a while of thinking, and reviewing some of the posts on this thread, I have filled out my application to join my local legion.

I have always been vocal about their lack of keeping up with the times, however, without input from the likes of us, how can they know they need to change?

I think I will have a good time.  I will keep everyone up to date on how this progresses.

dileas

tess
 
You don't even have to join your local Legion.  They have a "military members at large" branch, administered from Ottawa, which is specifically for serving CF members (reg and res) who wish to join but don't want to associate with any particular branch at present.

I joined 4 years ago, coincidentally when I joined the CF.

Although I don't use many of the services, I enjoy knowing that they are there to support me if I do have any needs.  In addition, there are other benefits the legion can offer, much like any social organization, such as reduced insurance rates, auto shop discounts (Speedy muffler), credit card offers (MBNA), car rental (Avis) discounts, their regular magazine.  Some branches will also offer discounts if, for example, you need to rent a banquet facility, etc.

Down the road, when you retire from military life, the transition is all the easier and you may already be well positioned to move into local executive positions, etc., if you have been a member for some time.  Plus, membership is a way of giving back, over and above contributing to the poppy drive every year, like most of us do anyway.  As an active community organization, the Legion offers so much to towns and cities everywhere, and simply by paying fees and being a member, you are already helping them a great deal.

www.legion.ca for more info.

 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act;

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20081108/vets_legions_081108/20081108/?hub=TorontoNewHome

As old vets die, Legions may fade away
Updated: Sat Nov. 08 2008 2:20:51 PM

The Canadian Press
TORONTO — For Al Hebburn, the Royal Canadian Legion has long been a vital part of his life, as it has been for tens of thousands of others who have served the country in war. 

But Hebburn, 92, and many other legion members wonder how long the venerable institution that bills itself as one of Canada's largest service organizations can outlast a dying breed of veterans and retain the importance it holds for him.

"If we didn't have such an organization, I'd be lost in this world," says Hebburn, who as an infantry sergeant survived the bloody Battle of Dieppe and the invasion of Normandy in the Second World War.

"Most of my buddies are gone. My family is all gone."

Like many of the 500,000 men and women who returned to Canada after helping defeat the Nazis, Hebburn signed onto his local legion in Toronto and became active.

"It's a socializing affair," Hebburn says. "It's a keep in touch with the people that I already enjoy, which is ex-soldiers and sailors and so forth."

Now he's just one of four Second World War vets who still go to the Branch 31 hall in west-end Toronto, down from 60 a decade ago. The rest have died, moved away or become confined to home or nursing homes.

Founded at Winnipeg in November 1925 as the Canadian Legion of the British Empire Services League, the legion incorporated a year later. It had 50,000 members then, many veterans of the trenches of the First World War.

Today, the non-profit Royal Canadian Legion has about 350,000 members across Canada. Only about 14 per cent have actual war service and about a third have direct ties to the military.

But membership is falling - down 25,400 from last year, which dropped 15,200 from 2006, which was down 16,800 from 2005.

It's a worrisome trend for active members - and one not being reversed by the younger veterans of battlefields such as Afghanistan, where 14,000 have served.

Almost 40 per cent of members are over 70 years old, and just six per cent are in the 18 to 39 age group.

"They, unfortunately, see the legion as a lot of young people do: 'It was for them; it was for the old guys from World War 2. It was for the guys from Korea. It's not for us,"' says Doug MacNeil, president of Branch 31.

"They don't see a thing with the legion. It's hard to connect with them."

More and more, once-smoky legion halls where old vets swapped war stories over a beer have morphed into community social clubs with looser and looser ties to veterans.

Bob Butt, spokesman for the Dominion Command of the Royal Canadian Legion, says the legion remains "extremely relevant" as Canada's custodian of Remembrance Day and a strong supporter of the country's veterans.

It's not uncommon for people to get involved in service organizations only after they get older, Butt says, but legion brass has recognized the need to try to appeal to a wider cross-section of the public.

For example, membership qualifications have been relaxed, he notes.

"A lot of people think it's still only for the military," Butt says. "But it's not just for the military. It's for all Canadians. We've made those changes and it will take some time to kick in."

Still, MacNeil says the legion has been slow to change in its quest to stay relevant. It needs to shed some of its traditionalist mindset, such as maintaining ties to the British monarchy, and do more to welcome new members of all backgrounds, he says.

"If the legion really wants to stay alive, they would have to really open their doors and encompass a lot more people and offer them something," MacNeil says.

About 1,550 legion halls are still active in Canada, but their numbers are also falling, as fewer members means fewer bodies to support the mortgage or pay for upkeep.

It's especially tough keeping a legion hall going in bigger cities as people move away and support declines. Some branches no longer have their own hall, instead meeting in church basements as a way to keep going.

"As the memberships die off, if they can't bring people in, an individual branch can't sustain itself," MacNeil says.

Some municipalities have offered property-tax breaks because the halls, especially in small towns, are often a vital part of the community's social fabric - a place for weddings, dances and other social events.

Hebburn, an obvious favourite and source of pride at Branch 31, says he won't make any predictions about the legion's future. It's not something he has much time to worry about, he says.

The organization will survive as long as it "serves the purpose of the living people," he says, given that old soldiers like him are almost a thing of the past.

"I would say there is no such a thing as a future generation of our kind of service people that are living today," Hebburn says.

"They're a generation of a different type of people. Their thoughts are different."

© 2008 CTVGlobeMedia All Rights Reserved.


450_cp_hebburn_081104.jpg

Al Hebburn, 92, of Toronto, who survived the Battle of Dieppe and the invasion of Normandy as an infantryman, stands by a memorial outside Branch 31 of the Royal Canadian Legion Tuesday, Nov. 4, 2008, in Toronto. (THE CANADIAN PRESS/ Colin Perkel)

dileas

tess
 
Back
Top