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Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?

maniac said:
Fellow Veterans

I hear a lot of talk of how the RC Legion has not stepped up to advocate like it used to.  I'm not defending the organization because there is certainly some truth to that depending on where you go.  Some branches has turned into glorified bars with creative ways in spending their poppy funds. 

I'm proposing rather than complaining about the RC Legion and what it does,  join it and force change from your location.  That is what we did as we had our own group and we joined in mass and took over the executive based on ordinary membership verses their inability to vote.  You don't have to quit any advocate group you maybe a part of,  just use the RC Legion as an extension of your advocacy.

There is no disputing the fact that the RC Legion does have a recognized voice based on it's work with WW vets,  that will not change.  I'm just saying,  knocking them for not doing something is partly our fault for not joining it and forcing our voice from their perspective.  We should have become the RC Legion perspective and voice by now.

I welcome any constructive opinion on the topic.

As Dogger says, the Legion itself doesn't welcome constructive change. Is it possible to force constructive change from the inside? Maybe.

Is it possible for a group of veterans to storm in, hold a coup, and take over a branch? Yes. Systematically do that in branches in Edmonton, Ottawa, Quebec City, Winnipeg, Victoria, and Halifax? Probably. Do it in all the little "old boys' clubs" across the country? I don't think so.

Even with getting a mass of converts from towns with reservists, you could maybe pull it off in a branch or two in places like Red Deer.

Where the Legion's in a small town away from a base and has carved a niche for itself, I don't think you've got a prayer. And if you've only subverted a minority of the branches, what have you accomplished?

You're going to have a handful of "combined messes for veterans", serving some guys who took over from the previous executive and their friends, with a great mass of dead weight clogging up the schedule with events that have no interest to the veterans - meat draws and so forth. They'll have to serve the needs of the dead weight at least in the middle term.

What's the objective in terms of an end state? To get the Legion to actually do some effective lobbying on things that matter? I don't see a way to subvert anywhere near a majority of the legions, and negotiations with an old guard that you've slashed and burned at your own branch might be... less than friendly. You could certainly get some credentials like "President of the Edmonton Kingsway Branch Legion" for quotes in the paper, and the national executive might have difficulty damning you. For a united organization directly lobbying the government, I don't see it.

To keep things from fizzling, you'd have to effectively take over a private club, run it, appeal to any veterans in the local area to support it, negotiate with the dead weight, actually provide something to the veterans of various demographics, and groom replacements to eventually take over your position in pulling off the balancing act.

The existing culture has more than just "not stepped up to advocate"; it was hostile towards anybody after WW2 and certainly post-Korea. My dad's not going to suddenly start showing up at the legion fifteen years after retirement, nor are a lot of cold war guys. You're going to be herding cats to change legion culture at a local level, and if its just you and and a handful of friends, you've got to expand through friends of friends like crazy to keep control after the coup.

All that work just to have a bar, a title, and a little piece of a brand name. Is soaking up your time and effort into a bar that may not be of interest to the folks you're trying to indirectly serve, isn't there a better use for our time?

I don't want a bar. I'm getting married, I'm starting a new job, and I want a life. Would I support a veteran's advocacy group by doing a discrete, manageable amount of legwork? Sure. Would I invest every waking minute spending my credit with family and friends to try to subvert an organization that I know that veterans working together across the country couldn't take over half of? No.
 
recceguy said:
Wrong. You just don't read enough, or read selectively searching for your own position.

There is a lot of dissenting opinion on what the Legion is about or how they go about it. Those posters also try, mostly, to offer solutions.

The difference between them and you though, is that while those opinions offer a modicum of solution, yours just come across as bleatings of a whiny *****, offering none.

Rather than join and try affect change, you'd rather the self cathartic route of endlessly slagging what you won't educate and involve yourself in.

Carry on.

Actually I'm quite involved in a veterans Advocacy group. And I see the legion making thing difficult for other groups trying to speak out (I.E pat Varga speaking right away to media about how great cutting red tap for medical travel mentioned in parliament as a "look at us...see we are doing great" according to Pat Varga ( who congradulated the change although it again divides Vet's into groups) and the VETERANS THE LEGION represents by Minister Blaney yesterday).

I have plenty of solutions; one is getting the word out about the legions massive failures. It's making it's own bed.

As for being a whiney bitch I appreciate the personal nature of the comment and respect your opinion. Internet tough guys are very impressive.
 
maniac said:
Fellow Veterans

I hear a lot of talk of how the RC Legion has not stepped up to advocate like it used to.  I'm not defending the organization because there is certainly some truth to that depending on where you go.  Some branches has turned into glorified bars with creative ways in spending their poppy funds. 

I have some pic's of IIRC a legion in Barry or Owen sound area handing over legion poppy funds to help out their local fire hall.  While I appreciate the thought of helping out a emergency service I have doubts that's what people contributing to the poppy fund think their money is being spent on. Why not throw some money toward Equitas etc to HELP VETERANS. how about helping the homeless veteran issue we currently have?

An example from one legion news site:

2012 Poppy Campaign
Branch XX is gearing up for the upcoming poppy campaign. The weekends of October 28/29 and November 4/5 will be crucial to our campaign. The funds raised are used to support local veterans and their dependants. In addition, just a few of the other areas where poppy funds are spent, include the following: equipment for hospitals and fire department; local cadets and scholarships for local students who have a connection with someone who is serving or who has served in our armed forces. To accomplish our objectives, of course we must call on volunteers from our members. When we joined the legion we all agreed to assist in Legion activities. I am therefore calling on our membership to come out and support our campaign either by serving on our committee or by volunteering as canvassers with trays of poppies for donations.
Anyone willing to assist may contact me as follows:
XXXXXXXXXXXXX, Poppy Campaign
Phone: xxx-xxxx E-mail: XXXXXXXXXXX@XXXX.xx

Personally I think there are areas to support veterans hurting much more than the local firehalls.

- Mod edit to remove branch/contact details - no point painting one branch/person if this isn't the only branch doing this -
 
Because, as I believe, the Legion isn't supposed to be all about "gimme, gimme, gimme".

Novel concept for some it seems......
 
dogger1936 said:
Actually I'm quite involved in a veterans Advocacy group. And I see the legion making thing difficult for other groups trying to speak out (I.E pat Varga speaking right away to media about how great cutting red tap for medical travel mentioned in parliament as a "look at us...see we are doing great" according to Pat Varga ( who congradulated the change although it again divides Vet's into groups) and the VETERANS THE LEGION represents by Minister Blaney yesterday).

I have plenty of solutions; one is getting the word out about the legions massive failures. It's making it's own bed.


Gee, yesterday you thought it was a good announcement.

dogger1936 said:
Not handing in receipts after attending a medical appointment booked by VAC makes sense. It cuts down on the office workload hunting down receipts from people; when you already know they went to the appointment.

Not big news, but hopefully it will cut down on the work of the case managers in VAC.
 
Could it be because the people donating want to see the funds go that direction? And that if it were for veterans ONLY that donations might fall off?

I know that two of the fire departments I belonged to were not a one way door for funding: we supported Cadets, seniors, the odd kid who needed braces whose parents didn't have the funds. Hell, one time we went and roofed a veterans house for him. I know because I was a part of those motions and I also had to give my ascent, as a member of the executive, to release the funds required.

Again, you throw this stuff out there but I find it rather incomplete.

SHOW ME the whole story, not just the side YOU want put across because you have such a frigging hard on for the Legion. I know for a fact there are those out there who will do just that on a case by case basis, some are members of this site, and I listen to them with intent. I do not listen to this tripe because it's old.
 
It could also be that there are members of the Legion who serve as firefighters. I can count about a dozen that I wore boots alongside. They knew the needs and they also knew the firefighters would be there for them if they ever needed them. Like the time our Legion flooded, or the numerous times they needed flags changed, or when we installed the new flagpole to rid ourselves of having to use the ladder truck every time they wanted the flag changed out.

And so on.

 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Because, as I believe, the Legion isn't supposed to be all about "gimme, gimme, gimme".

Novel concept for some it seems......

No not at all. However a poppy fund should be to support veterans in any capacity should it not? Ask a civilian who purchases a poppy aside from remembrance where they assume their money goes. I'm willing to bet the local fire hall etc doesn't come up or get mentioned.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
Gee, yesterday you thought it was a good announcement.

Keep reading down the thread and you'll find other comments where more information evolves; thus the change of opinion....I even mentioned it on the same thread you just quoted. While it seemed to be a good initiative; it clearly divides veterans into more groups again.  The legion should get all the facts before giving the big thumbs up to the current government. If that means waiting for the facts that the government isn't giving them so be it.

I'll take a little hiatus from posting; as obviously I've ruffled some feathers here.

Edit to add: No doubt Mr Bruyea says it better
http://www.seanbruyea.com/2007/06/royal-canadian-legion-rapidly-losing-its-connectivity-to-veteran-community/
 
Aw, now you're taking your ball and going home because you think you've "ruffled feathers"? Grow up dude.

I asked you, a couple of times, to refrain from posting snippets of info like they were the gospel, especially when you know they are not. If you want balanced and reasoned discussion then you have to choose to participate in it and not just take repeated potshots.

You say the Legion should get all of the facts? I challenge you to do the same.

Note: I am not a Legion apologist, I believe the problems are as real as they get. I am not, however, going to throw the baby out with the bathwater or subscribe to uninformed rhetoric where only half of the info, or even less in some of these cases, is being put across.

Anytime you choose to grow up a little I'll be here waiting for that balanced and reasoned discussion - not the accusations that people are getting their feathers ruffled.
 
dogger1936 said:
No not at all. However a poppy fund should be to support veterans in any capacity should it not? Ask a civilian who purchases a poppy aside from remembrance where they assume their money goes. I'm willing to bet the local fire hall etc doesn't come up or get mentioned.

You're making assumptions to go along with your generalizations. You're full of it. I know for a fact (again, I have those) that the fire hall, the hockey club, Cadets, coffee fund, etc. all get mentioned to poppy buyers by the folks behind the drive, at least with my Branch.



 
Danjanou a while back, got more involved with his local legion.  I saw him making the change from within.  I have been a big time basher of the Legion, just look at this thread, but I ahve come to the descision that you must force change, not talk about it. 

When he gets back from their convention, I am going down to his branch and submitting my application, which is all filled out.

Let the games begin!!!  >:D
 
Ogami Itto said:
Danjanou a while back, got more involved with his local legion.  I saw him making the change from within.  I have been a big time basher of the Legion, just look at this thread, but I ahve come to the descision that you must force change, not talk about it. 

When he gets back from their convention, I am going down to his branch and submitting my application, which is all filled out.

Let the games begin!!!  >:D

This I can agree with. No rhetoric. A man with a plan.

Give 'er.
 
Ogami Itto said:
Danjanou a while back, got more involved with his local legion.  I saw him making the change from within.  I have been a big time basher of the Legion....
Ah, well I prefer to be a basher of Danjanou -- sometimes, he even deserves it.  :nod:



No this isn't spam; this post contributes value equal to several others here.  ;)
 
Slightly off topic, but when I joined the Legion we had to stand up and swear an oath that mentioned something about the Orange Order or some such manifestation of imperial Protestantism. Yes, really. My last tour in NI had been a couple of years before that time, so naturally it tweaked my interest.

Do they still do that? I thought it was bizarre and slightly creepy and told the old duffer at the front as much (which caused him to shake with indignation to the extent hat the dandruff fell off his blazer  ;D).
 
daftandbarmy said:
Slightly off topic, but when I joined the Legion we had to stand up and swear an oath that mentioned something about the Orange Order or some such manifestation of imperial Protestantism.

Was this in some Ulster Scot corner of southern Ontario?
 
How's that for karma look what thread is active again and it's not even November the usual time for the start of  the annual ritual lets bash the RCL here on milnet.

As noted I'm actually a delegate at the National convention and it's a learning experience for one who's been in the RCL less than 5 years and for better or worse went from sitting at the back of the room bitching to stepping up and serving on the executive at Branch and Zone levels.

Lot of same ole same ole crap going on here and it was a struggle last night from tossing a couple of delegates off the Dartmouth ferry, and two of them were Branch Presidents.  Some positive signs too.  I had a smoke break with a local member with a tour in Afghanistan in 09 and if he's thirty I'll eat my convention pass. If he's willing to come inside the tent and piss outside, then I can in here too for now.

Lot of speeches VAC Minister , the CDS, lots of promises being made a and I'm taking notes and holding them to it. Change here is glacial but like Recce put it you can either ***** and moan or actually get off your *** and try and fix the problem. I'm still not sure that the RCL is fixable yet but intend to find out.

Much as I'd like to debate more now, I need to finish this beer and get back to my room and change. I intend to spend the night chatting with other delegates  over a few pints and learn and get input and ideas.

Give me a day or two to summarize all this  and I'll put up some detailed after action report.

Oh yeah JM JM frig off bro ;D
 
Well I must admit this is a spirited thread.  I was just saying that if you don't like what you see in there,  like the last post says,  join it to change it.  Blaming the Legion for it's inaction isn't productive.  You are entitled to one year free membership at large that I took advantage of and continued the years after.  Admittedly, our Legion is close to a super base and with a strong membership or veterans.  Your brothers in arms from wars past WILL accept you.
 
maniac said:
Your brothers in arms from wars past WILL accept you.
I think that a major cause of bitchin' here is that the preponderance of Legion members are not brothers in arms.
 
well said JM. Maniac if you're in halifax now PM and we can meet and grab a beer or coffee and compare notes brother .
 
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