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SupersonicMax said:
We shall await your command tour when you specifically instruct your Sergeant Major not to select ex-Cbt Arms pers for the guards when RCAF generals visit.
Usefulness of Modern Drill [Split from Paying Compliments]
- Thread starter gcclarke
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We shall await your command tour when you specifically instruct your Sergeant Major not to select ex-Cbt Arms pers for the guards when RCAF generals visit.
OldSolduer
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The RCAF would never have mounted the guard at Buckingham Palace if it were not for their exemplary drill.
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kratz said:
The hourly rate for a reg force LCdr (incentive level 5) is more around $65/hr when you take the monthly salary and divide by the average working days per month. $3K is still a whole lot of money for something that has very little practical return.
Baden Guy said:
No doubt. Just like I have not doubt some question the need for annual qual shoots with the C7.
Where I work civilians ensure our planes still fly. And they do.
Maybe it isn't about removing drills from the military but rather we should be removing some trades from the military.
daftandbarmy
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SupersonicMax said:
Everything the Infantry does is a drill, for a reason: victory in battle. Attacking machine guns (amongst other things) causes casualties, but we must go forward regardless. Good drills build instinctive reactions in the midst of chaos so we are good at fighting together under any stressful circumstance. Fight alone, die alone. Fight together, win together. We learn the basics of that on the parade square, whether we like it or not, and it is an important building block of corporate self-confidence, leadership and performance excellence e.g., :
“In his search to be a great leader, the young centurion sought out the Republic’s veteran warrior. Looking up from his labor, the sage spoke: “I know not what beats beneath your tunic, but what I saw in a leader from foot soldiers to proconsul is thus:
One who makes drill bloodless combat and combat bloody drill…
One who disciplines the offense and not the offenders…
One whose heart is with the Legion and whose loyalty is to the Republic…
One who seeks the companionship of the long march and not the privilege of position…
One whose commission is assigned from above and confirmed from below…
One who knows the self and, therefore, is true to all…
One who seeks to serve and not to be served…
This is the one who leads best of all.”
– LTC Jeffrey Spara in Military Leadership: In Pursuit of Excellence
Baden Guy said:
A parade which occurs at most every 2 or 3 years. We're lying to ourselves if we think that 1.5hrs of drill preceded by 2 or 3 days of practice is somehow a display of our professionalism and steadfast dedication to military excellence. How many obese mbrs are waddling around the other 1000+ days between parades? How about all the people who constantly go to and from their place of work with unpolished boots and hair that should've been cut 2 weeks ago? If the argument is going to be made that drill is necessary for development and maintaining discipline, you sure as hell better have the other 99.9% of a mbrs career dialed in before focusing on the remainder.
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daftandbarmy said:
I wasn't in the infantry. But, I saw they used tactics.
From what I have read, the last widespread use of formed infantry in the attack, particularly in columns, was in the first few weeks of the First World War.
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Michael O'Leary said:
Been OPI for a couple of those. Never seen a guard for those.
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Remius said:
I spent two tours in CFB Baden. Training how to deal with a Soviet attack probably wouldn't be very attractive to a civy tech. And I still took pride in my work.
Eye In The Sky
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Remius said:
There are civilian techs working on some RCAF fleets; IMP. We still need deployable military maintainers to deploy with us and keep things workin' at the Wing.
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Reading this thread is interesting. I actually recall an article in the old Infantry Journal (?) by Douglas Bland questioning the use of parade square drill back in the early 1980's, so this is hardly a new argument.
Separating the idea of using drill as training vs training drills is probably an important part of the argument. There is no doubt that drills are vitally important to carrying out tasks under stress, and there is no real substitute for repetitive practice of drills until it becomes ingrained as muscle memory.
However looking at the origins of modern drill suggests that there is still some value added there. Modern drill and parades originated in the reign of Queen Anne, when Royal "Muster masters" inspected the troops that a Colonel had raised to determine if and how much the Crown was going to pay. Troops were lined up in battle formations, which allowed the Muster master to do a head count, then the troops performed various evolutions of arms to demonstrate they were, in fact, trained troops and not just a bunch of people the Colonel rounded up off the street the other day.
Being and moving in formations allows you to see the entire "team" all together, something which you often don't have the chance to do in the day to day workplace, and everyone being able to move together as a unit instills a sense that you are part of a real team which functions together as a unit, something which most civilian work places can never replicate.
Yes, we can go overboard in parade ground drill, but then again you can get caught up in excessive time spent on other aspects of the job which you, personally, don't find interesting or compelling. I would suggest that cohesion and being part of a team is still vitally important for military forces to function in dangerous and trying conditions, and there is nothing wrong with some parade ground time as part of building that cohesiveness.
Separating the idea of using drill as training vs training drills is probably an important part of the argument. There is no doubt that drills are vitally important to carrying out tasks under stress, and there is no real substitute for repetitive practice of drills until it becomes ingrained as muscle memory.
However looking at the origins of modern drill suggests that there is still some value added there. Modern drill and parades originated in the reign of Queen Anne, when Royal "Muster masters" inspected the troops that a Colonel had raised to determine if and how much the Crown was going to pay. Troops were lined up in battle formations, which allowed the Muster master to do a head count, then the troops performed various evolutions of arms to demonstrate they were, in fact, trained troops and not just a bunch of people the Colonel rounded up off the street the other day.
Being and moving in formations allows you to see the entire "team" all together, something which you often don't have the chance to do in the day to day workplace, and everyone being able to move together as a unit instills a sense that you are part of a real team which functions together as a unit, something which most civilian work places can never replicate.
Yes, we can go overboard in parade ground drill, but then again you can get caught up in excessive time spent on other aspects of the job which you, personally, don't find interesting or compelling. I would suggest that cohesion and being part of a team is still vitally important for military forces to function in dangerous and trying conditions, and there is nothing wrong with some parade ground time as part of building that cohesiveness.
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Eye In The Sky said:
Yes, we know it's part of being in a uniform. What we're debating here is whether or not it should ne part of being in a uniform. The fact that we're doing something does not mean that doing that thing is beneficial. The military as a whole is absolutely terrible about continuing to do the same things that were always done in the past, with little justification other than the fact that that's how it's been done.
Drill had a purpose. It was actually used in combat; moving people around in formation on the battlefield. But it's not the 1700s anymore, and we don't need to be doing it.
And I really don't find any of the arguments that it helps for training in weapons handling, etc easier convincing. Simply do more training on those things instead. Any benefits to actual job requirements (you know, defending the nation and her interests abroad, not dog and pony shows) are tangential at best.
I don't think it benefits the military to be spending time doing this; it's likely harmful due to the opportunity cost of taking members away from something that could contribute more directly to success in our mission.
Remius said:
Frankly, I think this is exactly the mentality that we need to be fighting. Drill, uniforms, grooming standards, etc. That isn't what makes us military.
The fact that it's our job to bring violence to the enemy is what makes us military. All that other stuff is just a distraction from that. Pomp and circumstance and having really short hair doesn't help win wars.
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gcclarke said:
Exactly.
Those rocks aren't going to paint themselves...
OldSolduer
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So what’s the solution? Not do drill at all?
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Hamish Seggie said:
I'd say much of the CAF has already reached a near ideal state. We all know how to do basic drill, and can be brought up to speed for major public events when required.
I think questioning of usefulnes of drill comes in when some people(generally ex combat arms) declare that to fix the woes (real and imagined) of the CAF we need more marching up and down the square.
Poorly disciplined troops with low morale won't magically become better because we force them to march around more, but maybe we will drive out good people that want to do work related to their trade. People forgetting they are military, and not civies in funny clothes has more to do with a lack of practical military training(shooting, gas hut, etc.), and lack of enforcement of proper deportment than it does with a lack of marching up and down the square.
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FSTO said:
"If you don't like it quit" is exactly the type of attitude which leads to absolutely no improvements ever being made in an organization. Overall, I like my job, but there's aspects of I feel are anachronistic.
I mean, you do know that "leading change" and "initiative" are on the PER, right? We're supposed to be making the organization better as time goes on. Eliminating things which were put in because they served a purpose at one point but are now more harmful than beneficial is one of the things we're supposed to be doing.
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