Usefulness of Modern Drill [Split from Paying Compliments]

[Throwaway987]

I used professional trades interchangeably with knowledge workers. Where their primary contribution is cognitive ability and problem solving as opposed to physical labour. HR, finance, log, healthcare, maintainers, cyber, pilots, planners, etc.

The previous posters suggested that drill allows members to respond instinctively to commands. Every trade and rank requires varying amount of physical versus mental labour (or both). I’m arguing that drill does not provide comparable value to trades that do not value generic instinctive responses in their work. Yes, a hard army member has a challenging profession that requires extreme mental resiliency. But this doesn’t change the fact that the comptroller isn’t benefiting much from drill.

We can do as many change of command parades as we want but it’s not going to get the helicopter fixed any faster. It takes time for members to practice and maintain their drill (e.g. two days of parade practice before a ceremony). What are our priorities in a world of limited time and labour? Are we getting good value out of drill and parades?

 

[mariomike]

True fire drills are predictable (i.e. Fire Prevention Week) and in many cases people are locked and loaded and ready to go. 

I feel rather nostalgic for the old predictable childhood school drills, compared to the drills of today,

A school in Indiana has been criticised for apparently shooting teachers "execution style" with pellets as part of an "active-shooter drill". The case has reignited conversations about the usefulness of drills and the methods used to prepare schools for shootings.

Active-shooter drills were first introduced into US schools after the Columbine High School massacre in 1999, and have been a common part of school life for a generation of Americans.

An increasing number of schools are opting to conduct more intense drills involving masked men carrying fake guns and students playing the role of victims covered in fake blood.

Children being asked to pose as victims on the floor covered in fake blood

Mr Schonfeld is highly critical of what he terms "deception" drills, where students and teachers are unaware that a drill is happening and are led to believe the situation poses a real threat.

He cites examples of people in masks bursting into classrooms and brandishing weapons.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47711020

Not sure if parade square drill would sharpen peoples reactions in real-life ASHE situations?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I used professional trades interchangeably with knowledge workers. Where their primary contribution is cognitive ability and problem solving as opposed to physical labour. HR, finance, log, healthcare, maintainers, cyber, pilots, planners, etc.

You're using civilian terms and 'thinking' in a military context...they don't generally mix well; 'planners' in the military can be as high up as the GOFO level, or a Cpl on PLQ doing Small Party Taskings.

I don't know what trade you are, or how long you've been in, but if you think the folks in combat arms trades don't have to have cognitive ability and problem solving, or they aren't required to 'think for a living' (an aspect of the definition of knowledge worker), you're fairly misinformed.  They just also have the physical labour part to do, sometimes at the very same time they are doing the problem solving/knowledge worker piece.

The previous posters suggested that drill allows members to respond instinctively to commands. Every trade and rank requires varying amount of physical versus mental labour (or both). I’m arguing that drill does not provide comparable value to trades that do not value generic instinctive responses in their work. Yes, a hard army member has a challenging profession that requires extreme mental resiliency. But this doesn’t change the fact that the comptroller isn’t benefiting much from drill.

They are doing what they are paid to do some of the time;  it doesn't have to relate to 'benefitting the member'.  It is benefitting the military, whether they agree or not.  Does doing the FORCE test 'benefit' a comptroller?

This idea, or attitude of "what good is it to ME" is part of the military of today;  surprise...it isn't all about the member.  I can only speak for myself but I've always taken a certain amount of pride in parades;  we parade with (in a former life) our Guidon and now, my Sqn Colours.  There's a certain sense of belonging to something bigger than yourself IMO.

We can do as many change of command parades as we want but it’s not going to get the helicopter fixed any faster. It takes time for members to practice and maintain their drill (e.g. two days of parade practice before a ceremony). What are our priorities in a world of limited time and labour? Are we getting good value out of drill and parades?

I'm sure the Canadian Veterans watching the D Day ceremonies today, their families, etc are getting "good value" out of the parade stuff going on. 

People are saying get rid of drill, we have X to fix/do/etc.  No one is saying we should get rid of all the townhalls, PD days, ridiculous amount of 'mandatory' online trg that serves no actual purpose, etc.  I'd get rid of half of that nausea before drill...

I can only speak for myself;  I'm at an operational Sqn.  We parade, usually, on the VPI Memorial parade, Battle of Britain, Nov 11th, and Change of Command parades.  Not every single member does every single parade.  The last CofC parade I did, it was in 3Bs and we practiced for 1-2 hours for it. 

I don't see the harm there - flight operations weren't hindered just because it was 'down tools' and an empty FLYPRO for a day and a half.  :2c:

 

[daftandbarmy]

The last CofC parade I did, it was in 3Bs and we practiced for 1-2 hours for it. 

I don't see the harm there - flight operations weren't hindered just because it was 'down tools' and an empty FLYPRO for a day and a half.  :2c:

And that's exactly how much drill you should be doing in a unit. However, when a CoC parade takes on the aspects of Verdi's Aida, then you've got a bigger problem .... and it's usually because the leaders' egoes are bigger than the elephants.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

However, when a CoC parade takes on the aspects of Verdi's Aida, then you've got a bigger problem ....

That was the CTC Officers grad parade around August each year back when I hung my hat in Gagetown.  ;D

 

[Furniture]

You're using civilian terms and 'thinking' in a military context...they don't generally mix well; 'planners' in the military can be as high up as the GOFO level, or a Cpl on PLQ doing Small Party Taskings.

I don't know what trade you are, or how long you've been in, but if you think the folks in combat arms trades don't have to have cognitive ability and problem solving, or they aren't required to 'think for a living' (an aspect of the definition of knowledge worker), you're fairly misinformed.  They just also have the physical labour part to do, sometimes at the very same time they are doing the problem solving/knowledge worker piece.


They are doing what they are paid to do some of the time;  it doesn't have to relate to 'benefitting the member'.  It is benefitting the military, whether they agree or not.  Does doing the FORCE test 'benefit' a comptroller?

This idea, or attitude of "what good is it to ME" is part of the military of today;  surprise...it isn't all about the member.  I can only speak for myself but I've always taken a certain amount of pride in parades;  we parade with (in a former life) our Guidon and now, my Sqn Colours.  There's a certain sense of belonging to something bigger than yourself IMO.

I'm sure the Canadian Veterans watching the D Day ceremonies today, their families, etc are getting "good value" out of the parade stuff going on. 

People are saying get rid of drill, we have X to fix/do/etc.  No one is saying we should get rid of all the townhalls, PD days, ridiculous amount of 'mandatory' online trg that serves no actual purpose, etc.  I'd get rid of half of that nausea before drill...

I can only speak for myself;  I'm at an operational Sqn.  We parade, usually, on the VPI Memorial parade, Battle of Britain, Nov 11th, and Change of Command parades.  Not every single member does every single parade.  The last CofC parade I did, it was in 3Bs and we practiced for 1-2 hours for it. 

I don't see the harm there - flight operations weren't hindered just because it was 'down tools' and an empty FLYPRO for a day and a half.  :2c:

I don't think anyone is saying we need to get rid of drill all together. A point was brought up that drill trains people to "react" when doing their jobs. The counter argument was made that more actual value is gained by training people to do the actual job rather than doing more drill.

The entire discussion is about the "value added" in doing our jobs that comes from drill, which most seem to agree is minimal to non-existent. That's not an argument to drop drill altogether, just a point to dissuade some enterprising leader from "leading change" by bringing back regular parades as a "training" tool.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I was never a big parade square basher, but now am working with the Navy League Cadets. I have to admit the majority are faster learner than us adults! I tell them that the drill they are doing can be traced all the way to the Roman Legions and Greek Phalanxes, that at that time peoples lives depended on good drill and that by trying to learn drill you honour all those before you. Some get it and find that interesting. I also tell them that looking good on the parade square will impress their parents and they look sharp. That helps as well.

For Regular Force and Reserves, I would put drill as a necessary function. Every military unit is likely at some point to be asked to conduct drill and likely in front of non-military people. If you look like a Cluster F*** or a gaggle of geese, people will judge you as that. I would say that there is a certain expectation that military members can march in step and conduct basic drill movements. How much a unit practices should be tuned to the likelihood of having to do a parade or ceremony. I would say minimum once a month basic drill practice for non-soldiers, that drill practice can count as physical exercise. A 20 minute session, focusing on forming up, right dress, open order march, turns and wheels will keep people tuned up. If a big parade is coming, then you can add bits like Advance in Review Order, etc. Beside the physical exercise, everyone getting together and using it as a chance to get your young NCO/officers to command a group of people is good stuff. Working it into a another unit function like a quick update on what's happening, promotions which is what most combat units do in the mornings/ beginning of parade night.     

 

[Furniture]

I was never a big parade square basher, but now am working with the Navy League Cadets. I have to admit the majority are faster learner than us adults! I tell them that the drill they are doing can be traced all the way to the Roman Legions and Greek Phalanxes, that at that time peoples lives depended on good drill and that by trying to learn drill you honour all those before you. Some get it and find that interesting. I also tell them that looking good on the parade square will impress their parents and they look sharp. That helps as well.

For Regular Force and Reserves, I would put drill as a necessary function. Every military unit is likely at some point to be asked to conduct drill and likely in front of non-military people. If you look like a Cluster F*** or a gaggle of geese, people will judge you as that. I would say that there is a certain expectation that military members can march in step and conduct basic drill movements. How much a unit practices should be tuned to the likelihood of having to do a parade or ceremony. I would say minimum once a month basic drill practice for non-soldiers, that drill practice can count as physical exercise. A 20 minute session, focusing on forming up, right dress, open order march, turns and wheels will keep people tuned up. If a big parade is coming, then you can add bits like Advance in Review Order, etc. Beside the physical exercise, everyone getting together and using it as a chance to get your young NCO/officers to command a group of people is good stuff. Working it into a another unit function like a quick update on what's happening, promotions which is what most combat units do in the mornings/ beginning of parade night.   

Unfortunately some units, such as the one I belong to are comprised of shift workers, or people that work in separate locations. The logistics required to get everyone in the same place to march around for 20 min aren't worth it. For some units it might make sense, but it doesn't for many.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Soldiering in itself is a profession.

This. Army. Navy. Air Force. Green, blue, other blue and purple. Whatever your env., the whole scheme is about this profession. And this profession is built upon the adrenaline and endorphins that originate and terminate with the logical order that flows from drill, and not necessarily parade square bashing but definitely the conditioning that drill installs. Carry on.

 

[SupersonicMax]

And this profession is built upon the adrenaline and endorphins that originate and terminate with the logical order that flows from drill,

As a side note, there are times for soldiering tasks however parade drill have little to no application to most trades and is, frankly, a waste of precious, expensive ressources for most trades that don’t really have dead time on a daily/weekly basis.

Someone should come up with the hourly rate of conducting drill for a unit.

 

[mariomike]

frankly, a waste of precious, expensive ressources for most trades that don’t really have dead time on a daily/weekly basis.

Wasn't much spare time in a PRes transportation company.

 

[Remius]

Drill, uniforms, grooming standards, unique rules etc etc.  they all take effort, they all take time away from your job.  Except all of that is part of your job when you are in the military.

Drop all of those useless things and you are basically a public servant.

 

[observor 69]

Go to any major RCAF flying base and watch a change of command parade.  :rofl:
Yet the airplanes still fly. The pride is in my work.

 

[mariomike]

Drop all of those useless things and you are basically a public servant.

I was a civil servant. You kept your uniforms in your locker. The City paid for the dry cleaning. You showered and shaved at home, or at the station.

All of this was prior to reporting for duty.

I followed their unique rules ( well, almost always ). 

There was drill instruction at the academy.

If you really loved drill, you could try out for the Ceremonial Unit. They were very dedicated, practiced frequently ( when off-duty ) and were paid for their time.

 

[dimsum]

Go to any major RCAF flying base and watch a change of command parade.  :rofl:
Yet the airplanes still fly. The pride is in my work.

Yeah, that's half the reason I think sit-down parades are probably best. 

As for Mariomike's comment, I wish the CAF paid for dry cleaning for DEUs and Mess Kit  :nod:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Drill, uniforms, grooming standards, unique rules etc etc.  they all take effort, they all take time away from your job.  Except all of that is part of your job when you are in the military.

Drop all of those useless things and you are basically a public servant.

This.  Lots of people in the military are trying to play "civilian" these days.  I wish they'd get out and make room for those people who want to actually be in the military, and accept things like the odd parade and a little bit of drill, ironing and boot polishing that goes with it.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As a side note, there are times for soldiering tasks however parade drill have little to no application to most trades and is, frankly, a waste of precious, expensive ressources for most trades that don’t really have dead time on a daily/weekly basis.

Someone should come up with the hourly rate of conducting drill for a unit.

It would not be hard, but to be honest most of the time wasted i found working with the Reg Force was waiting around for someone to figure out what was supposed to be happening that day.

 

[kratz]

[quote author=SupersonicMax]


As a side note, there are times for soldiering tasks however parade drill have little to no application to most trades and is, frankly, a waste of precious, expensive ressources for most trades that don’t really have dead time on a daily/weekly basis.

Someone should come up with the hourly rate of conducting drill for a unit.
[/quote]

From my experience, most NavRes units are on top tracking their budget throughout the year and can easily tell you how much per night / 3 hours to offer up an accurate hourly rate. The variables with rank mix, IPC levels, Spec pay and PILL all affect a precise rate.

Using the CBIs and averaging the numbers, a reasonable estimate  is possible for an 80 person unit.

**edit: to fix formatting 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sometimes military members need to put their cell phones down, check themselves in a mirror, stand up straight then get screamed at for 40 minutes while they march in circles to remind themselves they're in the military and not civilians.

 

[Navy_Pete]

To be  completely honest, as a guy looking at a future of desk jobs (unless I can finagle some kind of UN posting or purple trade deployment) I actually like doing drill (on occasion), going to the range, etc.  Specifically because it reminds me that I am in fact, still in the military, and not a civvie.  If I want to be a civvie, I'll transfer over, and suffer through the higher pay, benefits, goatees and plaid shirts.