UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT

[armyvern]

I had also obtained (through a Toronto based surplus store), two new CADPAT thermal blankets, with manufactuers and NSN, all legal like, so I wonder how these are being released.

My 2 cents.

OWDU

:

Because someone who had access to the kit before it's distribution, or while it sat in depot, or while it sat in clothing, or while it sat in a QM ...
When stuff is brand new - it tends to be coming from someone who has access to it in that state, sup techs, storesman, work parties etc.

IF this stuff is out there --- it's STOLEN. It really is that simple. We are NOT allowed to just scrap it in a "usable" state. Really, what is so hard to understand about that statement?

I once reported some brand new cadpat gloves .... many many pairs of them ... being offered up for sale on EBay - brand new & still in the sealed bags ... NSN labels on the outside ....  it was a someone in the Sup system in that case.

And if every soldier in NATO did this this with his "cheap" gloves ... guess how many Chest Rigs that doesn't buy for the now?? Understand this ... every DIME that goes out the window like this .... accumulates to be worth of MANY dollars stolen from troops and our ability to support them and buy them what they need, pay raises etc.

If someone was taking a mere 10 bucks from your bank account every pay OWDU without you wanting them to or saying they could ... I'm sure sure you would NOT be sitting here telling us ... "is it really worth the effort"??? This is silly.

Short things short -- Kit is my responsibility, it's my job. I treat it likes in "mine" on behalf of the taxpayer ... that's what they expect me to do. If not, I'd just leave the doors to clothing stores unlocked every day and you could just come through "take whatever you need boys" ...

Money, in Canada, does not grow on trees. We are responsible for it, and we ARE obligated to control that kit, it's funding, and it's whereabouts by virtue of our trade.

 

[1feral1]

Meanwhile, I went on to Ebay tonight, and searched for 'cadpat'. Over 135 items showed up, numerous TVs, knee pads, many from USA addresses. Original or not, gawd only bloody knows.

Balaclavas, hats, gloves, bandanas, t-shirts, pants and shirts, parkas, anoraks, everything but a CADPAT g-string!

Personally, any MP investigation into this will find themselves chasing their tails.

Happy days,

OWDU

EDIT - that Toronto based surplus store still has CADPAT poncho liners for $70USD. He is a legitimate business. I don't think for a second he is peddling stolen property.

 

[Strike]

EDIT - that Toronto based surplus store still has CADPAT poncho liners for $70USD. He is a legitimate business. I don't think for a second he is peddling stolen property.

E-mail him and ask him where he got it.  His reply to me was "I know some people."  That's it.  Does that sound above board?

 

[armyvern]

everything but a CADPAT g-string!

Personally, any MP investigation into this will find themselves chasing their tails.

On the bold bit -- I actually HAVE one of those ... just saying is all.

On your last: Charging these people and ACTUALLY dealing with them in the PROPER DISCIPLINARY manner and PUNISHING them will actually serve as a deterrant to the current mindset amongst our personnel who figure "I've done my time - I've earned it".

It's PRECISELY because these thieves are getting away with it, not being brought to account, and then NOT being punished (IE: The CF "Disciplinary System has broken down") that there are those thieves who continue to believe they'll get away with bullshit like this (and have been getting away from it too).

It's time to put the DISCIPLINE back into them. Isn't that one of the most important building blocks of the CF and our capability to succeed?? Seems to me it always has been. When did that change?

 

[Stoker]

I never realized that this was such a problem. Instead of everyone complaining to the MP's, why are the MP's not monitoring e bay on a daily basis for this sort of illegal sale of controlled military items? It shouldn't have to be people on this site.

 

[Teeps74]

With the computer age? Is that the change? It seems paperwork multiplied, and for some reason, writing a simple RDP referencing appropriate QR&O's has some how gotten difficult. Hell, in one case, I did all the work, submitted it (could not persue it, as I tagged the next guy in, then went off to play in the sandbox for a bit), and it collected dust. All that was left to do, was the actual summery trial. Would have been good for the soldier, and the unit... But... I do not know...

Frustrating. Nasty tasting self licking lollipop here. As senior NCMs and WO's we can only go so far with the hand holding. After that point, one makes a better arguement argueing with a brick wall.

My point being. IMHO every such case should be investigated properly and fully. If there are violations of the NDA or Criminal Code, then charges should be laid, and a proper trial should be conducted. This, in a weird way, is good for the soldier, and good for the CF. I have, in the past, seen the hatless dance, rescue careers... Today, people seem more afraid they might hurt one.

 

[armyvern]

With the computer age? Is that the change? It seems paperwork multiplied, and for some reason, writing a simple RDP referencing appropriate QR&O's has some how gotten difficult. Hell, in one case, I did all the work, submitted it (could not persue it, as I tagged the next guy in, then went off to play in the sandbox for a bit), and it collected dust. All that was left to do, was the actual summery trial. Would have been good for the soldier, and the unit... But... I do not know...

Frustrating. Nasty tasting self licking lollipop here. As senior NCMs and WO's we can only go so far with the hand holding. After that point, one makes a better arguement argueing with a brick wall.

My point being. IMHO every such case should be investigated properly and fully. If there are violations of the NDA or Criminal Code, then charges should be laid, and a proper trial should be conducted. This, in a weird way, is good for the soldier, and good for the CF. I have, in the past, seen the hatless dance, rescue careers... Today, people seem more afraid they might hurt one.

BINGO.

For those following the sing-a-long BOTC thread ...

The hatless dance would be the one accompanied by the  LeftRightLeftRightLeftRightLeft  "without the pauses" tempo that I spoke of.

This dance used to be commonplace in the CF; there was nary a Pte who hadn't at least "seen" someone perform it (if they hadn't performed such themselves). Now ... practicly no one knows what the hell it is and we have to teach it to them by "squads" should (shudder) it ever be required to be performed. (The squads bit was a tiny bit of exaggeration on my part, but I think you get the picture).

Perhaps many are just way too busy these days coming up with "changes" to make to things that are already working properly so that they get those "good" points on their annuals in that all-important assesment area??

 

[Teeps74]

Once upon a time, it appeared to be an unwritten promotion requirement in my unit to have at least one 129 under your belt (dependant on circumstances) to get past the rank of MCpl.

 

[George Wallace]

Once upon a time, it appeared to be an unwritten promotion requirement in my unit to have at least one 129 under your belt (dependant on circumstances) to get past the rank of MCpl.

Yes.  And in earlier days, if you didn't do time in a DB, you never saw the appointment of RSM on your sleeve.

 

[Wookilar]

Thanks for the clarification on the CADPAT disposal issue (Vern and BinRat specifically). I remember the Edmonton scenario well (I was fixing Iltis'sssss for the same company but left before all the legal stuff started flying around ;D). A LOT of that was sold before the mistake was realized and I don't imagine it was ever recovered....

As to now, I will for sure keep my eyes more open...

Another question.....if the police investigation falls through (for whatever reasons) can administrative measures or charges (something along the lines of a 129) be brought by the CoC?

Wook

ps. On a personal note related to all this, if anyone in/around Kingston ever sees some long-haired, sandal wearing, granola crunching, tree hugging, friend of HEY, ZEUS! with a new patrol pack with the last three 031 (and my name of course) written in nice big black marker on the top (yes I know, against regs )...thump them for me and ask them where my laptop is as well....and they owe me $300 for my busted car window....

 

[1feral1]

I never realized that this was such a problem. Instead of everyone complaining to the MP's, why are the MP's not monitoring e bay on a daily basis for this sort of illegal sale of controlled military items? It shouldn't have to be people on this site.

What about addresses out of Canada?

Much of these items are USA based, some in Europe.

 

[armyvern]

What about addresses out of Canada?

Much of these items are USA based, some in Europe.

Yes indeed some are Europe based (and US based) ...  We do have Canadians serving in both those locations BTW.

Regarding that story I told earlier about brand new kit in the packaging?? ... That was EBay listed and was originating from a town quite close to a town in Europe that starts with a "G" and ends with a kirchen. 

 

[McG]

Unless the item is seen, and tags observed and the material checked for its authenticity, for all we know these could be after market designs.

Well, the CF owns the patent on CADPAT and is very tight about giving out permission for manufactures to make items in CADPAT.  Some specific small items have been approved to specific makers, but absolutely no blanket permissions have been given to anybody to produce whatever they want in CADPAT.  If something is a legitimate aftermarket CADPAT product, the manufacture would be able to present documentation showing the approval of the CF.  However, most after market goods being sold as CADPAT are either not really CADPAT (seconds or other digital pattern in which case the consumer is being told the product is something that it is not) or pirated CADPAT (as as we all know from the little thing at the start of movies, piracy is stealing). 

In the case of bigger things like load carriage vests/rigs, the item is either legitimately owned by the crown or it is not legitimate CADPAT.

 

[danchapps]

I never realized that this was such a problem. Instead of everyone complaining to the MP's, why are the MP's not monitoring e bay on a daily basis for this sort of illegal sale of controlled military items? It shouldn't have to be people on this site.

I'm the little BinRat that Vern Mentioned in Edmonton. When I discussed the issue with the MP yesterday he seemed a little bummed out that he now had to do some research at home (he was still cool with doing it, part of the job), as ebay is a blocked site on the DWAN. He was slightly ticked that the firewall was that tight, but that's life. He stated that he was going to check it out when he got home. I was a little sad that the threads were pulled as I had used them as a reference as I failed to write down all of the available info (d'oh on my part). If I ever see more of this stuff on ebay you better believe I'm make the MP shack trip again without hesitation. It's a real shame that folks are trying to pull this crap, but that's the way the world runs.

 

[1feral1]

WRT to the two CADPAT thermal blankets I have now, I'll get on here later and post the NSNs. I was assuming they were contract overruns or defective somehow in manufacture. They both were new in the bag.

Perhaps they are knock offs using lables/tags to fool us, as it has fooled me. These liners have a zip in the centre so one can poke his head thru.

That surplus store in TO is a legit reputable business, and I can't see the owner peddling stolen property. The business is his livelyhood.

They sure are nice blankies though.

Happy days,

OWDU

 

[danchapps]

I'm not sure with your situation OWDU. If you want you can PM the NSN to me and I can look on MIMS tomorrow and see if they match up. It's been know that reputable dealers sometimes get stuff in that they aren't supposed to, and sometimes they don't know they shouldn't have it (usually they do know, if they are really good suppliers).

 

[armyvern]

WRT to the two CADPAT thermal blankets I have now, I'll get on here later and post the NSNs. I was assuming they were contract overruns or defective somehow in manufacture. They both were new in the bag.

Perhaps they are knock offs using lables/tags to fool us, as it has fooled me. These liners have a zip in the centre so one can poke his head thru.

That surplus store in TO is a legit reputable business, and I can't see the owner peddling stolen property. The business is his livelyhood.

They sure are nice blankies though.

Happy days,

OWDU

Now, I didn't issue the contract to the manufacturer, but I'm pretty sure that as part fo the CTAT/ITAR contract protocol --- companies being awarded contracts to produce controlled items for the CF are subject to clause in the contract stating that "overruns/defects" etc are to be disposed of in such a state as to be completely unusable/unrepairable.

I could be wrong, and someone else with access to the actual contract specs would have to provide input here.

If that destruction is part of the contract though --- and they aren't abiding by it, there is always the possibility that the entire Company's security certificate for ITAR/CTAT can be revoked if they are in breach.

Not just this company ... any company that is contracted by us who has undergone the CTAT/ITAR security screening and approval process can have that revoked should they not comply with the legal demilitarization aspects required for those items they handle/supply/manufature on our behalf. IE ... a revocation of that CTAT/ITAR security certification will result in a loss of contracts for items that are subject to CTAT/ITAR.

 

[1feral1]

I'm not sure with your situation OWDU. If you want you can PM the NSN to me and I can look on MIMS tomorrow and see if they match up. It's been know that reputable dealers sometimes get stuff in that they aren't supposed to, and sometimes they don't know they shouldn't have it (usually they do know, if they are really good suppliers).

The dealer in question seems to haev an everending supply of these liners. I can't see them coming from a CF source.

I am betting they are coming from the manufacrtuer, and he is buying from them direct.

I will post the NSN and manufacturer once home tonight.

These could be bogus, as I have a US liner desert MARPAT (got in Iraq from Ebay of course) which has a tag on it with NSN, but its made in China, a good quality knock off though.

 

[Boxkicker]

  Hello all I am glad Vern weighed in on this as well. I helped to start one of the original investigations years ago. One of the things I learned was that it was not illegal to sell CADPAT as long as it was not the material used by the military. So the fake stuff that is on the market is just the pattern. Now as for KIT the manufacturer can sell production over runs of certain items. Helmets and TAC vest are not some of those items. I have seen helmets in the box with the PWGSC number and that is something to watch for. Now on EBAY right now there are some things for sale from someone in Morinville,outside of Edmonton where I am posted and we can send it off to the MP's. I have also had some of my guys bring other sites like KIJIJI to my attention, which will come through the filters. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

..........and I wonder how many of those 'sellers' lurk here and yank their stuff for awhile when they see the heat put on it. We've had lots of threads about people selling illegal stuff, but I don't remember too many stories about anyone being caught and convicted, because of our actions. I sometimes wonder if we let the cat out of the bag with our long threads and discussions.