UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT

[1feral1]

Fair enough RG. Good call.

Cheers,
OWDU

 

[garb811]

I never realized that this was such a problem. Instead of everyone complaining to the MP's, why are the MP's not monitoring e bay on a daily basis for this sort of illegal sale of controlled military items? It shouldn't have to be people on this site.

Because we're not the EBay police?  Should we also be conducting spot checks of every military surplus store and pawn shop in Canada too?

 

[CountDC]

And, that is exactly it. He would have had to turn them in to clear (they're CTAT/ITAR items) --- that's NOT what's occured.

What occured is he either reported his lost or stolen (ie he lied as you said) and had them re-issued with a write-off occuring for the original items from his charge. Absolutely 100% fraudulent actions on Government paperwork and theft.

MOST likely though - he stole these items from one of his "buddies", perhaps even a coursemate; and SCREWED them out of their kit - making them submit MLRs when their items "somehow, mysteriously, got lost). Ni-iice. Absolutely 100% fraudulent actions on Government paperwork AND theft.

or he is/was a reservist who just walked away with the kit. Went NES and received a nice certificate in the mail saying Honourably Released from the CF.

 

[armyvern]

or he is/was a reservist who just walked away with the kit. Went NES and received a nice certificate in the mail saying Honourably Released from the CF.

Possibly.

But, I've gotten requests from AJAGs before for doc listings so that they could include them in the "registered" delivery of the legal mail those NES guys would be receiving.

Just last year, I had an AJAG from "X" in Ontario contact me to let me know they'd made contact with one of the NES gents (kid had moved to this Province after going NES there) ... and that he'd be turning all that kit in here so that his butt didn't end up in jail. Even had to fax the AJAG copies of the paperwork showing the return to the system for the items NES boy had screwed off with.

I'm dealing with a sit now wrt a RegF gent ... who released ... and apparently decided it was ok to scribble his very own initials onto his PLCC card in the "Clothing Stores" space.  No stamp, his own initials, but he made it through the release process somehow --- and took all his kit with him because he never did clear out of clothing legally. Anyway, he hasn't been out for a year yet ... there's time. And, his time is coming.

 

[George Wallace]

Because we're not the EBay police?  Should we also be conducting spot checks of every military surplus store and pawn shop in Canada too?

Well.  After seven Regimental Colours and Guidons showed up in a Calgary Surplus Store, stolen out of DHH in Ottawa, that may be a good idea.    >

 

[BinRat55]

Because we're not the EBay police?  Should we also be conducting spot checks of every military surplus store and pawn shop in Canada too?

Of course not. But WE as members of the CF are responsible for reporting any wrongdoing when confronted by it. Like the RCR's say, "Never pass a fault." ... or was it, "Never pass the salt"?...

We have 90,000+ "cops" out there... 

 

[CountDC]

Possibly.

But, I've gotten requests from AJAGs before for doc listings so that they could include them in the "registered" delivery of the legal mail those NES guys would be receiving.

done lots of those in the past - most were ignored by the guys and nothing happened to them.  At one point the Sup O was rubber stamping write offs on all reserve NES mbrs kit as it was too much hassle to go after them.  I did hear that attempts were now being made through the JAG to recover the cost from mbrs by garnishment but this is usually a long process. I still think the old days of load the truck with several guys and visit all the NES mbrs to ask nicely  for the kit back was the best way to deal with it. Unfortunately the legal system does not agree with me. I also believe that anyone that has gone NES with outstanding kit should be given a dishonourable discharge instead of honourable.

I always hate it when people would give the excuse that they didn't have time to return the kit.  We had a reserve member sent to jail and the day he was sent he arranged with his mother to contact me and have us pick up his kit. If a man in jail can return his kit then in my books no one living has a good excuse. 

Guess I'll have to start cruising ebay, craigs list, Kijiji once in a while to report this stuff.

 

[Stoker]

Because we're not the EBay police?  Should we also be conducting spot checks of every military surplus store and pawn shop in Canada too?

No your not, however if you know that on a regular basis there is stolen kit being put on e bay you would figure you would have a obligation to look into it.

 

[danchapps]

Having just returned from another visit to my friends at the MP shack (long week) I have passed more info on to the investigating Officer. There are now two persons involved in the report, and I was told there is now the possibility of an NIS investigation to do a sweep and get all of them at once. That's not a for sure,but I sure hope it is. Much thanks to those that passed information onto me, you know who you are, I won't do a call out, but thank you, info passed. I was absolutely shocked at the stuff one fellow had up for sale.

Cheers!

 

[armyvern]

..........and I wonder how many of those 'sellers' lurk here and yank their stuff for awhile when they see the heat put on it. We've had lots of threads about people selling illegal stuff, but I don't remember too many stories about anyone being caught and convicted, because of our actions. I sometimes wonder if we let the cat out of the bag with our long threads and discussions.

There have been. JAG site shows them up - just as they do any other CMs.

I said it in another thread before, once I report it ... that I stop talking about it - there's an investigation going on, so, essentially, I shouldn't be talking about it anymore.

Same with the one below ... it's reported. Let the investigation occur and the chips fall where they may.

I can tell you this, that when they do nail someone ... they aren't coming back to me to inform me of what's occuring. Quite frankly, they (and I) don't think it's my business as I've already done my job by reporting it.

I can never prove it, but say I make a report (for example) about brand new kit still in the packaging on EBay being offered up from Greenwood and I report it -- then a couple (!! Yeah right ... a year later is closer to it) months later just happen to see Sup Tech Bloggins' name up on the JAG site for "theft" "property entrusted to them" etc etc --- I can connect a few of the dots. (NOTE: the previous scenario was just a scenario ... any resemblance of this scenario to any person, living or dead, is merely co-incidental.  ) <--- that works on TV for Law & Order!!  >

 

[BinRat55]

Found this (if it's on here already my apologies...)

UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT
CANFORGEN 120/02 DSSPM 0089 300845Z OCT 02
UNCLASSIFIED



REFS: A. CANADIAN FORCES SUPPLY MANUAL (CFSM) A-LM-007-014-AG-001 CHAPTER 3 SECTION 2 PARAGRAPH 2
B. CANADIAN FORCES SUPPLY MANUAL (CFSM) A-LM-007-014-AG-001 CHAPTER 28 ANNEX D APPENDIX 13
C. NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT (NDA) PART III CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE SECTION 116




THE PURPOSE OF THIS MSG IS TO REMIND MEMBERS OF REGULATIONS WITH RESPECT TO ILLEGAL SALE OR DISPOSAL OF CROWN ASSETS.


THE INTRODUCTION OF THE CANADIAN DISRUPTIVE PATTERN (CADPAT) HAS RESULTED IN A BLACK MARKET DEMAND FOR CAMOUFLAGE ITEMS WHEREBY CADPAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT HAVE BECOME QUOTE HOT TICKET UNQUOTE COLLECTABLES.


REF A DEFINES COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT AS A QUOTE PERSONAL ALLOTMENT UNQUOTE ACCOUNTED FOR ON AN INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNT (IA) AND ARE RETAINED BY INDIVIDUALS AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO MEET THE ENTITLEMENT PARAMETERS OF THE APPLICABLE ENTITLEMENT GROUP CODE (EGC). COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT INCLUDING CADPAT ITEMS ARE CROWN ASSETS AND MUST RPT MUST BE SURRENDERED TO THE SUPPLY SYSTEM WHEN ENTITLEMENT NO LONGER EXISTS. SERVICEABLE CADPAT RPT CADPAT ITEMS WILL BE RETAINED AND RE-ISSUED WHILE ITEMS BEYOND ECONOMICAL REPAIR SHALL BE DESTROYED LOCALLY IAW REF B.


NOTWITHSTANDING THE PENALTIES ASSOCIATED WITH UNAUTHORIZED SALE OR DISPOSAL OF COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT AS DETAILED AT REF C, PERSONNEL ARE ALSO REMINDED THAT THE INHERENT CAMOUFLAGE AND NEAR INFRA-RED (IR) CAPABILITY OF CADPAT MATERIAL OR OTHER ITEMS INCORPORATING STATE OF THE ART TECHNOLOGY FALLS UNDER FORCE PROTECTION. SUCH CAPABILITY IN THE WRONG OR ENEMY HANDS JEOPARDIZES THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF CANADIAN TROOPS. CADPAT PATTERNS AND TECHNICAL DATA ARE PATENT AND COPYRIGHT PROTECTED. ADDITIONALLY, THE DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE (DND) HAS ACQUIRED THE TRADEMARK FOR EXCLUSIVE USE OF THE CADPAT ACRONYM. MEMBERS ARE ADVISED THAT CADPAT COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT IS STILL IN DELIVERY AND EVERY SET COUNTS.


THE DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT RESTS WITH DND AND NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WITH THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER.

 

[George Wallace]

Please take note:

UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT
CANFORGEN 120/02 DSSPM 0089 300845Z OCT 02
UNCLASSIFIED



REFS: A. CANADIAN FORCES SUPPLY MANUAL (CFSM) A-LM-007-014-AG-001 CHAPTER 3 SECTION 2 PARAGRAPH 2
B. CANADIAN FORCES SUPPLY MANUAL (CFSM) A-LM-007-014-AG-001 CHAPTER 28 ANNEX D APPENDIX 13
C. NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT (NDA) PART III CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE SECTION 116




THE PURPOSE OF THIS MSG IS TO REMIND MEMBERS OF REGULATIONS WITH RESPECT TO ILLEGAL SALE OR DISPOSAL OF CROWN ASSETS.


THE INTRODUCTION OF THE CANADIAN DISRUPTIVE PATTERN (CADPAT) HAS RESULTED IN A BLACK MARKET DEMAND FOR CAMOUFLAGE ITEMS WHEREBY CADPAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT HAVE BECOME QUOTE HOT TICKET UNQUOTE COLLECTABLES.


REF A DEFINES COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT AS A QUOTE PERSONAL ALLOTMENT UNQUOTE ACCOUNTED FOR ON AN INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNT (IA) AND ARE RETAINED BY INDIVIDUALS AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO MEET THE ENTITLEMENT PARAMETERS OF THE APPLICABLE ENTITLEMENT GROUP CODE (EGC). COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT INCLUDING CADPAT ITEMS ARE CROWN ASSETS AND MUST RPT MUST BE SURRENDERED TO THE SUPPLY SYSTEM WHEN ENTITLEMENT NO LONGER EXISTS. SERVICEABLE CADPAT RPT CADPAT ITEMS WILL BE RETAINED AND RE-ISSUED WHILE ITEMS BEYOND ECONOMICAL REPAIR SHALL BE DESTROYED LOCALLY IAW REF B.


NOTWITHSTANDING THE PENALTIES ASSOCIATED WITH UNAUTHORIZED SALE OR DISPOSAL OF COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT AS DETAILED AT REF C, PERSONNEL ARE ALSO REMINDED THAT THE INHERENT CAMOUFLAGE AND NEAR INFRA-RED (IR) CAPABILITY OF CADPAT MATERIAL OR OTHER ITEMS INCORPORATING STATE OF THE ART TECHNOLOGY FALLS UNDER FORCE PROTECTION. SUCH CAPABILITY IN THE WRONG OR ENEMY HANDS JEOPARDIZES THE SAFETY AND SECURITY OF CANADIAN TROOPS. CADPAT PATTERNS AND TECHNICAL DATA ARE PATENT AND COPYRIGHT PROTECTED. ADDITIONALLY, THE DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE (DND) HAS ACQUIRED THE TRADEMARK FOR EXCLUSIVE USE OF THE CADPAT ACRONYM. MEMBERS ARE ADVISED THAT CADPAT COMBAT CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT IS STILL IN DELIVERY AND EVERY SET COUNTS.


THE DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT RESTS WITH DND AND NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WITH THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER.

If you should find any such equipment or uniforms being disposed of (SOLD), notify the nearest Military Police or RCMP Detachment right away.  Failing that, notify your nearest CF 'authority'.  Do not attempt to deal with the matter on your own.  Leave that to the proper authorities.

More discusion at Sale of Canadian military uniforms on internet sparks investigation.

 

[George Wallace]

Found this (if it's on here already my apologies...)

It wasn't, but it is now.  I cut and paste and stickied it in the Military Administration Forum for others to find in the future.

 

[BinRat55]

Excellent. Thank you very much George!

 

[McG]

One of the things I learned was that it was not illegal to sell CADPAT as long as it was not the material used by the military.

It might not be criminal.  It is a violation of copy write to sell something and call it CADPAT without permission.  It is also lying to the consumer if that something is not CADPAT, and it is piracy if that something is CADPAT.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Having just returned from another visit to my friends at the MP shack (long week) I have passed more info on to the investigating Officer patrolmen. There are now two persons involved in the report, and I was told there is now the possibility of an NIS investigation to do a sweep and get all of them at once. That's not a for sure,but I sure hope it is. Much thanks to those that passed information onto me, you know who you are, I won't do a call out, but thank you, info passed. I was absolutely shocked at the stuff one fellow had up for sale.

Cheers!

Excellent. Hopefully they nail everyone that can that is ripping off the CF and Joe and Jane Taxpayer.

(Unless the MP you were talking to is an MPO (Officer), they are patrolmen.  MPs are NCMs just like the rest of us  8))

 

[danchapps]

Excellent. Hopefully they nail everyone that can that is ripping off the CF and Joe and Jane Taxpayer.

(Unless the MP you were talking to is an MPO (Officer), they are patrolmen.  MPs are NCMs just like the rest of us  8))

Thanks for the clarification, I guess it's a hold over from civie life, I still catch myself making silly minor errors like such. As Vern mentioned before, because this matter is being investigated I won't be talking anymore about specific cases, I'll let the MP's deal with it, not my problem anymore.

With that being said, I do agree, I can't stand seeing people rip off the crown, they pay for it out of their taxes too, and complain their taxes are high, a vicious circle I think.

 

[1feral1]

With that being said, I do agree, I can't stand seeing people rip off the crown, they pay for it out of their taxes too, and complain their taxes are high, a vicious circle I think.

It shytes me to tears too, that there are 'thieves' selling current kit, but theft is theft, so I guess I am a bit of a hypocrit then.

I think we are all guilty of ripping off the Crown to some degree over our careers.

Example No.1: Duracel AA batteries come to mind (they're not cheap), even in the field on your own am/fm pers radio, if you procure batts for use other than in DND eqpt, its still fraud and/or theft.

I wonder how many thousands of dollars are wasted on acquired batts of all shapes and sizes, not forgetting PP&S, even if its a small bottle of whiteout you 'borrowed', and 'forgot' to take it back  . I might indeed be touching the tip of the iceberg here ?

I am guilty.

OWDU

 

[armyvern]

Good poins Wes,

But hypocrisy really has NOTHING to do with it.  The wearing of uniforms by civilians (especially so be they -red-) is illegal, is in contravention of Geneva Conventions and puts the lives of our troops at risk.

Allowing a uniform to be stolen to possibly come into the hands of our enemy thereby putting our personnel at risk --- is certainly not akin to taking home the blue pen you inadvertantly put in your shirt pocket, but still the pen that you'll most likely use that night doing "work" anyways and the very same pen that'll make the trip back into work the next day).

Perhaps you're thinking of those days of decentralized budgets (ie Base Supply paid for everything instead of individual Units/Sections with their own budget) --- where in the late summer, demands for pencil crayons, markers, binders, paper etc would unexplicably rise (and perhpas the white-out too). Eerily enough that stuff would all then "disappear" from all Unit's PP&S lockers the week before school started.

Your right it happened .... that doesn't make it right. As a matter of fact, situations such as that a part of the reason that budgets did devolve. When your section's actually spending the money (and when it's gone --- it's gone) --- one has the distinct tendancy to be more careful with it and ensure it's used for it's intended purpose.

In this case, it's MY job to look after the taxpayers money (ie kit) by controlling, issuing as per entitlements, ensuring it's security, and reporting theft when I see it. Guess what? That's also a responsibility of each and every serving CF member.

Gone are  the days when a soldier had to say "bang, bang, bang" when out in the field while his buddies' kids all went to school kitted out with taxpayer funded PP&S. If you think THAT problem wasn't huge ... you need to think again. For every taxpayer dime that walks out the door ... that one less dime for equipment, clothing, boots, bullets, beans for OUR soldiers. Guess where my priority is?

And, I'll say it again ... if most CF member had the attitude of your "winkie" regarding the botte of white-out and 60000 X 2.99 dollar bottles walked out tomorrow (that's most soldiers just saying "fuck it --- it's ONLY a 2.99 dollar bottle of white out, I'm taking it") that equals 180 000 bucks. Do you realize how many chest rigs that COULD have bought that our troops NEED right now?

It's high time that people stopped trying to justify "theft" as insignificant or allowable. It's becoming quite disgusting to read about just how morally acceptable it seems to be these days in some quarters.

 

[danchapps]

Hey Vern,

This topic came up the other day when I was out and about. Somehow the conversation drifted to the subject and I did state that I had recently made 2 reports. The person I was talking to was sort of blown away that I did such a thing and asked why. I stated that I felt is was part of my job, that I'm not just a keen new guy, but someone that has high moral values as well. After I said that, said person said "Why don't you just let it be?" To which I said "It's hard enough for the troops to get the kit they need, why should some chump on the street get it before someone that needs it, plus selling it is ILLEGAL!" Then the subject changed after that. Sigh, if only everyone thought the same way as us on this issue.