The War of 1812 Merged Thread

[edadian]

Google brought me to this site when I searched for the Canadian Light Dragoons. I am interested in 1812 honours being given to current units but why stop there? Why not grant honours for the all the wars Canadians have fought back to our beginnings as an identifiable people. People have called themselves Canadians since the about 1630s and have been fighting since then.

As for the lineage debate I think those units that show direct lineage should get specific honours and those who are raised in the same geographical area should just get the general war with dates honour.

So who should we choose to lead this charge?

 

[Slim]

Hi Bill

I must be the first to admit that I know next to nothing about any military action prior to the Boer War. I did however find your post to be really interesting and am now going off to see what  I can learn from the E-net.

Just an aside...I am a collector of things military and was in the Queenston heights area several years ago. I went to the monument and then to Fort George and tried to find some sort of quality souvenir to take hoe for the shelf. ( I have a 1/12 scale brass cannon from Springfield Armoury!) alas nothing was to be had!

I wish that we as a country would take better care of our own heritage!

Cheers all and once again, great post!

Slim

 

[alan_li_13]

Is it possible that we do not give battle honours for battles that happened before the forming of this country, i.e Confederation? I think this could be an argument used by whoever is against it. But if anyone has examples of any Regiments that have battle honours from before, then I think that argument becomes useless.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Battle Honours have been awarded to regiments based on the guidelines that were in use at the time. By the First World War, these were fairly specific as to how a unit might qualify for a battle honour. To retroactively grant honours for past events without meeting the relevant requirements starts to invalidate the process as a whole. To do so across the point of Confederation and the institution of units as regiments of the Dominion of Canada would be presumptuous and would require some official form of validation of lineage across that point if time. Although some regiments claim such lineage, it is a liberal interpretation melding a regiment's history with the history of militias raised in a locality. One does not necessarily beget the other.

You can find some further reading, including the relevant sections of Army Orders for the two World Wars and Korea here: http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/battle_honours.htm

See also this description of the Battle Honour system by (now) Major John Grodzinski's, who is currently a lecturer at the Royal Military College Faculty of History: http://regimentalrogue.com/battlehonours/grod_btlhnrs.htm

 

[pbi]

Then perhaps Mike what we need is either to change those regulations to let us do this, or to find a way of carrying the honours on the colours but not as "honours" subject to the current regulations. Battle streamers come to mind.

How much of a Pandora's box would we really be opening, if we did change the regulations to permit the perpetuation of pre-Militia Act units and their associated honours? Most of the current units in Canada would probably not be involved (certainly no Regular units, and only a limited number of Res Inf and Cavalry units--none west of Ontario, and not even the ones in Northern Ontario). We would be looking at the American Revolution (possibly), the War of 1812 (certainly), and possibly the Rebellions (if we want to include them. IMHO much of the research for the War of 1812 has been done as to establishing what Canadian units were there. There would have to be some arbitrariness involved in awarding of honours, but based on good research IMHO this would be acceptable. It seems a great loss to me that honours from a war as seminal in forming our national history and image as the War of 1812 was are not carried as part of our military heritage in the form of battle honours to be venerated.

Cheers.

 

[alan_li_13]

I have read in a historical account of the Queen's York Rangers that battle honours for the American Revolution were not given out because it was a defeat in the general sense.

 

[Canadian Volunteer]

You'd do well to further investigate Willcocks. Although he ended his days as a traitor to Canada, he seemed to try to insinuate himself with the powerful. And, I might add, he was charged by Brock himself with ensuring the loyalty of the (IIRC) Grand River native nations. And apparently he fought at Queenston Heights (on the Canadian/British side). Also present at this battle was Col. Runchey's Corps of Coloured Men, the first Canadian black troops.

 

[Bill Smy]

Robert Runchy was a Captain in the Lincoln Militia, not a Colonel.

 

[Old Ranger]

Another error in the history of this war creeps into Canadian nationalistic rants which state that "we" Canadians burnt the White House. There were no Canadian units on that expedition.

What about Rodger's Rangers?

 

[Zartan]

Another error in the history of this war creeps into Canadian nationalistic rants which state that "we" Canadians burnt the White House. There were no Canadian units on that expedition.

True, however, it being a British Army, there were undoubtedly a number of Canadian born soldiers in the ranks. Also, occassionally the Americans themselves are given "credit" for starting some of the fires in Washington. However, I stick with the side that says the British did it.

What about Rodger's Rangers?

Roger's Rangers were disbanded roughly 30 years before the war began. Their descendants participated, rather.

Pierre Burton's volumes on the War of 1812 and the books by Don Graves are excellent resources when studying the War of 1812. Fair, interesting, and gripping and above all, educational.

 

[jmacleod]

A great deal of the history of the War of 1812 is focused on Nova Scotia, and the Ports of Halifax
(Royal Navy Dockyard) Liverpool and Shelburne (Privateers). Author Thomas Raddall was an engineer
at Bowaters, and a prolific writer and author. "His Majesty's Yankees" set in the Revoluntary War
is excellent. Much information in the Cambridge Library RA Park, Halifax Fortress Museum and the
RCN Museum Admiralty House, Halifax NS. War of 1812 started essentially at sea when RN ships
seized American (and Canadian) shipping, looking for crews (the shipborne press gang). Privateers
from Liverpool NS thought they could secure prizes if they appeared to support RN activities, but
RN looked upon them as a source of crews as well, and if possible often seized their ships. Last
of the NS Privateers did indeed creep out of Halifax but it was the RN they avoided. The battle
off Halifax between HMS "Shannon" and the USS "Chesapeake" is the stuff of legend, all recorded
in great detail in the facilities noted, in Halifax NS. Author Raddall resided in Liverpool NS, but was
a native of the UK. MacLeod

 

[Danjanou]

A great deal of the history of the War of 1812 is focused on Nova Scotia, and the Ports of Halifax
(Royal Navy Dockyard) Liverpool and Shelburne (Privateers).....

Really news to me.

I must have failed both Geography and History in higher reading and writing school. I didn't know Detroit, Mackinac, Miami, River Raisin, Thames, Fort Meigs, Fort Stephenson, Lake Erie, Georgian Bay, Fort Erie, Lundy's Lane, Patterson's Creek, Chippewa, Queenston Heights, Fort George, Fort Niagara, , Blackrock, Buffalo, Fort Niagara, Stoney Creek, Beaver Dams,Burlington, York, Crysler's Farm, Salmon River, Chateauguay, Lacolle Mills, Sacketts Harbour, Oswego, Plattsburg,  Chesapeake, Bladenburg, capture of Washington, Baltimore, New Orleans, Fort Bower, Mobiloe, and the Gerogia Coast were all in Nova Scotia?  :

 

[jmacleod]

War of 1812 started at sea. The United States Navy decided to defend their shipping and attacked
the Royal Navy - consequently the British, who had a garrison in North America, throughout what
is now the Atlantic region, Quebec and Ontario, were faced with a US invasion, focused on Upper
and Lower Canada, that is why there were so many battles in what is now Ontario. British with the
world's most powerful Navy, and a long established fighting Army, invaded the US, occupied NY for
a while and burned Washington DC. All in the history books. It has always seemed to me that the
war ended when both sides ran out of money - in any event, General Andrew Jackson defended
Louisiana - New Orleans and became a national hero and President. Many of the US POW's of the
War of 1812 were incarcerated in prisons and prison ships in Halifax NS - US Army recognized this
with a special dedication ceremony last year to honor hundreds who died there. It was on the CBC,
how could anyone have missed it. MacLeod

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Many of the US POW's of the War of 1812 were incarcerated in prisons and prison ships in Halifax NS - US Army recognized this
with a special dedication ceremony last year to honor hundreds who died there. It was on the CBC, how could anyone have missed it. MacLeod

IIRC it was an AIr National Guard unit (from Alabama or Tennesse)not the US Army that did the dedication ceremony back in 2000-2001 I though.

 

[Wils21]

This is a little off topic but I figured I'd throw it in the mix.  Many members of my family are buried at the Drummond Hill Cemetary.The Rysdale's, Pew's, and the Lundy's.  This is the site of the battle of Lundy's Lane.  Now if anyone has visited the site you will notice strange rings around the trees about 7 or 8 feet up the trunk.  Does anyone know what these may be from?  I was thinking it might have been rope to prvent canons from rolling down the slope. 

 

[jmacleod]

You could be right, I did'nt see the ceremony, but it may be on an Air Guard Site. It was a
substantial event. While I respond to this a little information about "Rogers Rangers" -
Rogers and his Rangers fought in the Seven Years War, and came from New England.
They raided Huron and Abinackie as well as French villages in what is now NB and Quebec.
Author Kenneth Roberts wrote an excellent book about Rogers Rangers in his "Northwest
Passage" - around 1937-1939. In any event part of the book was made into a first class film
which starred Spencer Tracy as Rogers - the battle and raid sequences in the film are very
well done. The Seven Years War changed the direction of French-British North America, but
little is taught in schools these days - Canadian (pre Canadian) history is certainly not dull. Macleod

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

It was on the CBC,how could anyone have missed it. MacLeod

You could be right, I did'nt see the ceremony

Hmmmmm anyone else see anything wrong with the above?  :

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Hmmmmm anyone else see anything wrong with the above?   :

I guess you didn't "get" the sarcastic reference to CBC.  Funny, since you seem so keen on using sarcasm yourself.    Lighten up.  It was a joke.

 

[jmacleod]

Thank you Michael, it was a little joke - there is a lot about the War of 1812 available - it is known
as the "The War That Nobody Won" - but historians relalized that this is the War the shaped and
created Canada. When the late Stan Rogers sang about the "last of the privateers" he was actually
referring to the Johnathan Eddy Privateers that sailed from Liverpool NS - the Royal Navy policy in
all waters they sailed in was "if you spoke English, you were British" so they would press into RN
service and entire ship's company, and sell the ship. No Nova Scotia master in his right mind would
consider taking on a RN Frigate like HMS Shannon. So if you were from Boston or New York, the
RN despite that fact that you were "American" would press you into service because of your English
language - they kept the seaman they pressed into line by flogging - remember they had been fighting
Napoleon for some time, and needed seamen. The RN motto of the period "straight at em" sums
up the great fignting spirt of the Royal Navy. MacLeod

 

[Danjanou]

With the exception of some US sources that continue to suggest the whole war was fought over the issue of what or what was not done to US sailors, citizens, ships, and/or maritime trade by the RN, most of the sources I'm familiar with suggest that this was not the underlying cause of the war.

In fact this and the trade issues were being resolved by diplomatically means, and in fact if memory serves me had actually been resolved prior to the commencement of hostilities. The delay in communications meant that the despatches reached North America too late, similar to what would happen at the end of the war and the resulting battles of New Orleans and Fort Bower/Mobile.

The true reason for the war was US expansionism. A faction of the US Congress, the aptly named "warhawks", mainly from the western and southern states saw the British territories in North America, or at least two of them, Upper and Lower Canada, as ripe for the taking. I don't beleive thay had any ambitions at the time for the more established and populous Atlantic Provinces. Sometimes the world does not revolve around Nova Scotia.

On the surface it appeared a perfect plan. The British were engaged in a literal life and death struggle against Napoleon both militarily and economically and therefore would not be able to mount much of an effort against the US. The populations of both the provinces they intended to seize were in theory either at least benevolently neutral or outright hostile to the British (The "conquered" Quebecois and the recent influx of land hungry US citizens to Upper Canada).

Sadly as they were to discover this was not the case. They also failed to consider the impact of the Native Indian forces who also played a major contribution both tactically and strategically in the first year of the war.

The main focus of the conflict was the land incursions into these two provinces and the supporting naval engagements on the Great Lakes in 1812-13. Later the conflict would expand to include naval operations off the eastern seaboard of the US, limited (but very successful if largely unknown) land operations into Maine and of course the well known punitive expeditions launched by British forces directly from Europe into the Chesapeake Region and the Southern US.

Macleod I considered letting this one alone. After all a review of the majority of your posts here suggests that the world as we know it consists of your (and your mysterious associates) opinion and that's it. Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong end of story.

However one of the unwritten rules of the site is "stay within your arcs" and unfortunately I think once again you've strayed from them.

Mind what do I know. I'm only a lowly ex-grunt with an edumucation from Newfoundland. I'm sure you'll now respond with "facts" showing that you (and your associates of course) if not actual participants in the War of 1812 were at least witnesses to it.