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The War of 1812 Merged Thread

Danjanou: thanks for the flanking fire. I was about 60% sure I was right. IMHO the entire Washington episode is quite embarassing for the Americans (as is much of the entire war-perhaps the reason that the only battles they seem to retain in the collective memory are New Orleans (which was actually somewhat pointless as it was fought after a truce was declared) and the siege of Baltimore's fort which is recalled in their Anthem.


there were however 2 separate regiments that were around there war the york ranger and the queens rangers. i know that the queens rangers and the york rangers were against the Americans in both the war of 1812 and the revolution

I'm going to challenge you: not out of meanness, but out of historical interest. What actions did these Ranger units particpate in during the War of 1812? I honestly don't recall hearing about them after the Revolutionary War

The Lincs+Winks have over 200yrs history...

Unofficially they may-they probably can trace their roots to the Lincoln Militia that served under Brock and his successors on the Niagara front, but as I pointed out the Canadian Army does   not officially recognize unit lineage back beyond the act of 1855. That means that seniority cannot be calculated, battle honours cannot be carried, and units really don't "perpetuate" in the same way that they perpetuate CEF battalions, for example. Of course, in the hearts and minds of the True Believers, everything is possible. Cheers.

.
 
Unofficially they may-they probably can trace their roots to the Lincoln Militia that served under Brock and his successors on the Niagara front, but as I pointed out the Canadian Army does  not officially recognize unit lineage back beyond the act of 1855. That means that seniority cannot be calculated, battle honours cannot be carried, and units really don't "perpetuate" in the same way that they perpetuate CEF battalions, for example. Of course, in the hearts and minds of the True Believers, everything is possible. Cheers.

Very interesting indeed. I hadn't known that, I suppose they wouldn't want to tell us that because there are pieces of "regimental" history all over our armoury. Also a giant banner commemorating over 200yrs service...211 actually because they celebrated that in 1994...  ::) I'm just a Pte recruit so I don't know what is legal or not but they sure take pride in it, or as you would say, are "True Believers"...

Thanks,
Joe
 
Marched?   I think it was more like limped back, unfortunately not due to American troops, but more British soldiers were killed by lightning, gale force winds, and a tornado.....some type of Divine Vengance?   I'll let you decide  

Ahhh--I see: perhaps this was the origin of "In God We Trust"?

As for the War of 1812, I am not an expert, but I think it was not quite as lopsided as some loyalists would like to think

You are quite right: there were some hideous examples of military incompetence on both sides, and Prevost was not much of a match for his predecessor Brock. The point I was trying to make was that, as far as I can make out, the events of the war are largely forgotten by the American collective memory except for the two incidents I mentioned (and the origin of the West Point dress uniforms ). IIRC the fairly widely stated US objective was to take British North America by a "mere matter of marching", and there was never the serious intent, (nor more importantly the ability), on the part of the British to retake the US (they were heavily engaged with Napoleon at the time IIRC...),so I imagine it must have represented something of a frustration. Things like Michilimackinac, Queenston Heights, Ft Dearborn and Chateaugai, or the very unpatriotic stance of the northeastern border states, were probably rather embarassing, and so I expect are not well remembered. But then, I suppose most Americans don't think  about the war against Mexico much, either.

For us, on the other hand (as opposed to the British who have mostly forgotten about it) the war remains a source of pride, embroidered to a certain extent by a certain degree of mythology such as the story that "Canadians burnt the White House".

Besides that, the US never had a large standing army as europe did and the europeans still coveted the entire continent.

"The Europeans still coveted the entire continent?" Really? What makes you say that?   "Manifest Destiny" is an American idea, IIRC, not a British one. IMHO the British no longer entertained such silly ideas, and certainly were in no position to do anything about it. The French? Even less likely: they basically abandoned North America (except for the Louisiana area) once they were defeated at Quebec.

"...a large standing army as europe did..."? Doubtless the Royal Navy outclassed the US Navy in sheer size, but again the RN was heavily engaged with the French. The US Army, both Regular and State Militias, was IIRC considerably larger than the very small force of British and Canadian Regulars, Canadian militia and Indians that opposed them for most of the war.   One of the constant problems facing the British and Canadians was that they had only a very small force to cover a large frontier with the US, extending from upper Lake Huron to the Atlantic coast.

Cheers



 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I really do hate getting into these cross border pissing matches re the War of 1812 here or elsewhere with our southern cousins. They almost always turn out the same. A search of the site will show this has come up again and again ad nauseum.

PBI again you hit the x ring with your observations and yeah I am our resident SME on this particular little tete a tete.

Major Sherwood once more you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one cuz. Hopefully someday we can rehash it over a beer or two.
 
The best synopsis of the War of 1812 I've ever heard was from my 1st year Canadian History prof, towit:

"The War of 1812 was fought between Britain and the United States. The winner was Canada, the loser was Spain. Any questions?"

;D
 
S_Baker said:
  ...I would be more worried about the war of 2012 than something that happened almost 200 yrs ago.

You know something the rest of us don't?

Shortage of fresh water down there perhaps.

Not that it bothers me . According to my plans, by 2012 I intend to be retired and sipping umbrella drinks on some exotic third world beach on a full time basis. 8)
 
I cannot claim to be the absolute expert on Butler's Rangers, the Queen's Rangers and the QYR, but here are some points:

Alan Woolley hosts my web page on Butler's Rangers. The Lincoln and Welland Regiment claims descent, but pbi is correct that the CF does not recognize official lineage back before the passage of the Militia Act of 1855,which IMHO is sad.

http://www.iaw.on.ca/~awoolley/brang/brang/html

The QYR claims descent from Rogers Rangers (the Seven Years War) through the Queen's Rangers (1st Americans) during the American Revolution. John Graves Simcoe commanded the Queen's Rangers during the revolution and when he arrived in Upper Canada as Lieutenant Governor, he raised a unit of the same name. The QYR do not claim any connection to the Lincoln Militia.

The Directorate of History and Heritage at NDHQ asked me to provide comments on Battle Honours for the War of 1812, and I am told that the issue is under study.

Some of my points touched on perpetuation, rather than descent, just as many regiments today perpetuate CEF battalions, but do not claim descent, a need for a competent study on the order of battle of the Canadian militia (Upper and Lower Canada, the maritimes and Newfoundland) so that a credible list of current regiments can be developed to create the perpetuation, and the Battle Honours which should be considered.

I doubt that anything will happen in my life-time.

Many Canadians claim that the attack on Washington was in retaliation for the burning of York (now Toronto), but from my study of original documents, that event was never discussed, rather it was part of a strategic attempt to bring the war to an end.


 
Correct Bill re the burning/retaliation.

Much of what I've read suggests that the burning of Buffalo and Black Rock after raids to destroy supplies there were more realistic retaliations for the torching of public buildings in York and the wholesale burning of Newark ( Niagra on the lake). It makes more sense as some of the troops involved in those ops were Canadian.

Be nice to see War of 1812 Battle Honours someday. The RNFLDR and RNBR, would certainly have their share as would a few Quebec and Ontario Regiments that may claim lineage.
 
Be nice to see War of 1812 Battle Honours someday. The RNFLDR and RNBR, would certainly have their share as would a few Quebec and Ontario Regiments that may claim lineage

I am with this 100%. The Act of 1855 was a law. Laws are written by men: they can be changed by men (and, dare I say it, most Canadians are unlikely to take to the streets over whether or not the Lincoln and Welland Regiment can carry "Queenston Heights" on its colours.) I believe that the War of 1812 is a very important part of our military heritage as well as a shaping influence on the way we perceive our relations with the US. (For better or for worse). The units that can demonstrate a reasonable claim to descent from the Canadian Fencibles, Volunteers, Embodied Militia and Sedentary Militia who fought in these engagements should be given the right to carry these honours.

Cheers
 
Start on the offence, end on the defence and with less territory than you started with, unless you play for the Detroit Lions, that's a loss. ;D :cdn:
 
This is an off-shoot from some of the discussion regarding the burning of the White House.

These are some thoughts on Battle Honours for the War of 1812. I know there are others out there with more expertise, so perhaps they can add some discussion or correct me where I'm wrong.

Historically Canada has followed the lead of the United Kingdom in determining which honours would be issued and the criteria to be met for their award. However, since the creation of the Order of Canada in 1972, Canada has determined to create its own set of distinctive Honours and Awards. Currently, this has not expanded beyond personal (including gallantry) awards and the grant of arms, but it is only a matter of time that awards such as military Battle Honours for the Canadian Forces will become distinctly Canadian.

The British issued five Battle Honours for the War of 1812: â Å“Detroitâ ?, â Å“Queenstownâ ? (note the spelling of Queenston), â Å“Miamiâ ?, â Å“Niagaraâ ?, and â Å“Bladensburgâ ?. Units of the Canadian militia were present at each of the engagements with the exception of Bladensburg, sometimes in greater numerical strength than British regulars. However, with the exception of the grant of â Å“Niagaraâ ? to the five regiments of Incorporated Militia, no award was made to the militia. The rationale of this decision has been lost in the passage of time, but in all probability, it was due to the British â Å“perspectiveâ ? of the war. Certainly it was not based solely on the â Å“regularâ ? aspect of the Incorporated Militia, for there were other Canadian units present in this theatre that were â Å“regularsâ ? which did not receive the honour.

The British issued a Military General Service Medal during the period 1793-1814. Conflicts world-wide during this period were recognized by the issuance of clasps or bars, the significance of which was highlighted by the Duke of Wellington who wrote that the issue of a bar was as important as the award of a Battle Honour. In fact, of the 29 bars issued to the medal, only three bars have not had a corresponding Battle Honour awarded. The three bars commemorating North American War of 1812 battles are: â Å“Fort Detroitâ ?, â Å“Chateauguayâ ?, and â Å“Chrystler's Farmâ ? (note the spelling). Chateauguay and Chrysler's Farm were two of the three for which no Battle Honour was issued.

With the current thrust to â Å“Canadianizeâ ? our honours system, I believe that, without recourse to British authorities, nor limitation by the original British criteria, Canada could issue Battle Honours for the War of 1812. If we did so, it would not be necessary to copy the honours awarded by the British, but those six battles are logical choices to begin the process of examination. There is precedence for issuing Canadian Battle Honours with the same name as those of the British, and it is readily found in the case of the First World War where Canada used the British list of honours, but set its own criteria for the awards.

If Canadian awards are deemed appropriate, there would have to be some thought as to the criteria to be used to determine their issue. Usually, there is some reference to numerical strength, but in this respect that rationale is really not appropriate. Militia units were not standard organizations, basically because they were drawn from very different population bases. What might seem to be an insignificant numerical strength at a battle might be a very large portion of the male population of the geographical area and reflect a more substantial effort than numbers alone might reflect.

There is British precedence in the issuing of Battle Honours long after the event. The first British honour was awarded in 1695, and years later an honour commemorating a battle in 1513 was awarded to the Corps of Gentleman at Arms. Thus, the late award of Battle Honours for the War of 1812 would not be unique in the history of such honours.

Additionally, the War Honour, â Å“The War of 1812â ? (similar to the honour â Å“The Great Warâ ? in World War I) should be included in any approved honours. This award would recognize units that by their very existence and presence contributed to the defence of the country.

Grants to Units

Perhaps the greatest difficulty in awarding Battle Honours for the War of 1812 is the continuing policy of not recognizing lineage of units of the Canadian Forces prior to the Militia Act of 1855. To set that policy aside for the purpose of awarding Battle Honours invites a host of other problems (i.e. Order of Precedence) which in turn creates controversy. There is a possible solution, however, in the process that was adopted in the awarding of Battle Honours earned by units of the Canadian Expeditionary Force in World War 1 to units of the militia after the war. In that case, militia units that met certain criteria were deemed to be perpetuating the CEF battalions and entitled to the honours earned by the CEF battalion. That concept was expanded beyond CEF battalions which served in France to recognize the contribution of follow-on battalions which were broken up in the United Kingdom to provide reinforcements to the Canadian Corps in the field. Perpetuation, however, is not to be confused with descent.

Something of this nature could be developed for the award of 1812 Battle Honours. Central to that solution, however, would be the necessity of developing a comprehensive and accurate Order of Battle for the Canadian militia in Upper Canada, Lower Canada and the Maritimes for the period 1812-1814; time consuming but not impossible.

If that concept were adopted, current-day regiments (both regular and reserve) could be identified as perpetuating units. I would suggest, though, that a part of the process of awarding World War II honours be followed - the list of those honours was circulated, and units were invited to identify those to which they believed they were entitled. This would create a positive sense of participation and involvement by the Army. Of course, the final decision and approval would be at the national level where, it can be argued, there would be no bias in the decision.

 
Bill: Good post, and I am in enthusiastic agreement with you. A couple of points stand out:


With the current thrust to â Å“Canadianizeâ ? our honours system, I believe that, without recourse to British authorities, nor limitation by the original British criteria, Canada could issue Battle Honours for the War of 1812. If we did so, it would not be necessary to copy the honours awarded by the British, but those six battles are logical choices to begin the process of examination. There is precedence for issuing Canadian Battle Honours with the same name as those of the British, and it is readily found in the case of the First World War where Canada used the British list of honours, but set its own criteria for the awards.

Hear, hear. About time we got on with this. The sooner we have a stand-alone system, the better.

If that concept were adopted, current-day regiments (both regular and reserve) could be identified as perpetuating units. I would suggest, though, that a part of the process of awarding World War II honours be followed - the list of those honours was circulated, and units were invited to identify those to which they believed they were entitled. This would create a positive sense of participation and involvement by the Army. Of course, the final decision and approval would be at the national level where, it can be argued, there would be no bias in the decision.

Good idea again. This was roughly what I was thinking. Further, I don't think it would be as complex as we might think. First of all, many of our Reserve units could not participate at all. Units based west of Ontario would be out of the running altogether. Units in Ontario located much north of Toronto would also be out. Artillery, Engineers, Signals and CSS are not in the running. There was very little cavalry involved except for a couple of dragoon outfits. That leaves mainly those Infantry units in Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes that can demonstrate a reasonable lineage, or who could be reasonably deemed the "perpetuators" of the 1812 units. Of those, most of the battle honours would probably go to Inf units located around SW Ontario, Niagara, Toronto and along the St. Lawrence. I think this could be done. The award of honours could take place on the sites of the battlefields, and would serve to strengthen the connection between the units and the history of the communities in those areas. I'm all for it.

Cheers
 
If this was to happen, be nice to have it in place to make the awards in 2012 the bicentennial.
 
pbi said:
I'm going to challenge you: not out of meanness, but out of historical interest. What actions did these Ranger units particpate in during the War of 1812? I honestly don't recall hearing about them after the Revolutionary War

Danjanou said:
The QYR while active in the American Revolution and afterwards in the settling of Upper Canada (Ontario) were disbanded lonhg before the War of 1812.


OK 1st thing in 1812 the york militia (which turned in to the york rangers later) was formed. they fought at the battle of queenstonhights. they were also one of Sir Isaak Brocks favorite group of soldiers. i am pretty sure they were with him in the charge that took his life. don't take my word for that though.

what we need to remember is that there were the queens rangers and the queens york rangers they did not become the queens york rangers untill 1936.

the QY were active in the  American revelution. i am pretty sure that the regiment started for the 7 years war and been on and off since i believe the 2nd world war. it was made up of loyalists from New Hampshire. here are some of the campains that they participated in around the time of the American revolution and a little before.
1755

    * Raised by Captain Robert Rogers in New Hampshire

1756

    * Named "The Queen's Rangers"

1757

    * Operations about Lake Champlain

1758

    * Defense of Fort William Henry
    * Ticonderoga
    * Capture of Louisbourg
1759

    * Plains of Abraham
    * Capture of Quebec
    * Ticonderoga and Crown Point
    * St. Francis

1760

    * Ste. Foyle
    * Defense of Quebec
    * Capture of St. Jean and Chambly
    * Capture of Montreal
    * Surrender of Fort Detroit

1763

    * Defense of Detroit

1776

    * The Queen's Rangers raised by Lieutenant-Colonel Robert Rogers

1777

    * New York
    * White Plains
    * Brandywine
    * Germantown

1778

    * Philadelphia
    * Monmouth
    * Operations about New York

1779

    * Granted the title "1st American Regiment"
    * Operations in New Jersey

1780

    * Capture of Charleston
    * Springfield

1781

    * Richmond
    * Petersburg
    * Forks of the James
    * Spencers Ordinary
    * Yorktown and the Escape of the Colours

also here is what they did during the war of 1812

1812

    * York Militia Raised
    * Queenston Heights

there whole military history is in the link i provided in my 2nd post. if you need it again it is right here
http://www.army.dnd.ca/Queens_Own_York_Rangers/qy_rang/battle_e.htm

i am not just a kid that thinks i know what i ma talking about i love history and i am always learning more things about it. i have been studying the qyr history for about 2 years now. now i know that they did not have anything to do with the burning of the white house. i always thought they did.

-hutch
 
The Regiments and Corps of the Canadian Army
published by the Army Historical Section, 1964

pp 65

The Quueen's York Rangers

The Regiment originated on 14 Sep 1866, when the 12th York Battalion of Infantry" was authorized to be formed from five independent companies. .......

There is a difference between the history of a Regiment of the Canadian Army, and the history of the militia and units raised in a locality. The history you are referring to that predates Sep 1866 is the latter. Please be clear whether you are discussing official lineages or local history.
 
4 R22R (Chateauguay) is the descendant of the "Régiment de Chateauguay". It was named after the Battle of the Chateauguay, which happened in Oct 1813 near Allen's Corner, Qc. Now the Régt de Chateauguay was a descendant of the Voltigeurs, the Regt that Col Salaberry formed and commanded during the Battle. 4 R22R Members wear a small badge on their tunic in honour of that part of it's history.
 
If for some reason the powers to be said only one battle honour could be awarded for this war, my vote would be for "Chateauguay" Jungle.

Certainly not the biggest by far, and really not much larger than a skirmish. But very crucial. Lost that one and we could have lost the whole thing, Montreal, Ville de Quebec captured. The Canadian provinces split in half and Upper Canada basically cut off and ripe for the picking.

Grossly outnumbered, we won by that great Canadian trait. We were sneaky little buggers, and we build damn good defensive positions.

BTW the "we" was deliberate, the only battle where no Brits were present. Canadian only, English and French, mostly the later, but just Canadians.

 
Yes: I like Chateauguay best of all. I am sure that our US friends will immediately dismiss it as insignificant, but be that as it may.

I like it for two reasons. First, the one you mentioned.

Second, to me it represents a fine "turning of the tables" on the US popular idea that their enemy were a bunch of redcoated, pipeclayed buffoons (ala the song "Battle of New Orleans") mere parade ground soldiers who understood nothing about fighting in North America and were no match for the good ol'red-blooded American boy using his native wits and marksmanship, firing from behind trees and fooling the silly Imperialists into a panicked defeat.

Chateauguay, IMHO, handsomely presents all of these things being done to the invader, by Canadians no less. It was asymmetric warfare when nobody had ever heard the word. The sooner we see it on somebody's colours, the better. We should name the new CMTC after de Salaberry. Cheers.
 
Danjanou said:
If this was to happen, be nice to have it in place to make the awards in 2012 the bicentennial.

Even better. Cheers
 
I prefer the battle of Yorktown (although a different war) where a bunch of colonial rabble along with a bunch of accordian carrying French (a metaphor) whipped a "superior" force.  But then hey, it depends on which side one was on, doesn't it?   

However, I for one think it is time to fight the new battles, not worry about who did what to whom 200 yrs ago.  If one is basing their current ability on what their forebearers did almost 200 yrs ago, that might be a fatal mistake.

Such honorable intentions S_Baker. I commend you, now what would you be like without that true north strong and free blood flowing through your veins? :p

Good point though, if we had half the military we did even the DAY we entered the second world war we'd be somethin!  >:D Seems things might be changing up around here with the new CDS though, although not everyone is sure it's for the better...

The new battles are much more complicated, with all those damn steel horses with round legs and screaming chariots flying around dropping "BOOM" on everyone!...  ;) Us Canadians have to modernize and get with the modern times which has been apparent since the end of WW2...
 
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