The RCAF's Next Generation Fighter (CF-188 Replacement)

[Old Sweat]

I think Mr. Campbell is the man to ask. He knows how the system works much better than I. I will venture a guess on why Leslie is not the MND: too many former officers who don’t particularly care for him. That’s my view and it could be incorrect.

Two other possible reasons:

a. Leslie was likely to be difficult to push around; and/or

b. He might have been perceived as a potential leadership rival to JT, and therefore somebody to be kept out of the spotlight.

 

[Quirky]

If the fighter fleet is bleeding techs and pilots and the replacement was announced tomorrow, who would they send to train on the new platform? You'd have to severely cut back on flying ops on the current fleet to make the transition.

 

[Cloud Cover]

hmm. Leslie might have been a leadership rival to JT if he had remained in the army and staged a coup, Canadian style ( sorry ‘bout that), but otherwise the competition is not even close.  The libs would not have won the last election without JT, and I don’t see how they are going to lose the next one with or without an airforce. As stated above, MND is a meaningless cabinet position, and has been 50 years. I’m surprised the AG spends so much time studying the military ... almost seems like Parliament wants him to waste his time and energy studying airplanes on paper.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If the fighter fleet is bleeding techs and pilots and the replacement was announced tomorrow, who would they send to train on the new platform? You'd have to severely cut back on flying ops on the current fleet to make the transition.

New aircraft, in production, with established training regimes for pilots, ground crew and a defined delivery date, would likely help reduce the personal loss.

 

[blacktriangle]

Disclaimer: I've met the MND, but I don't vote for his party.

Honestly, what would you have him do? Speak out against his bosses? Fall on his sword? I sure don't see any senior military officers doing that (maybe aside from VAdm Norman) despite the state the CAF is in...

 

[Quirky]

New aircraft, in production, with established training regimes for pilots, ground crew and a defined delivery date, would likely help reduce the personal loss.

If they asked me to go back into the fighter fleet with a new F35 to work on I’d say absolutely. When they tell me I’d be going back to Cold Lake I’d tell them to find someone else. Everyone under the age of 30 who doesn’t love killing forest animals hates it there. You can’t just dangle a shiny new carrot in front of their noses and expect them to start walking.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Disclaimer: I've met the MND, but I don't vote for his party.

Honestly, what would you have him do? Speak out against his bosses? Fall on his sword? I sure don't see any senior military officers doing that (maybe aside from VAdm Norman) despite the state the CAF is in...

Yep and why would they?  Way too much invested in the game at this point to piss it all away for most likely nothing.

VAdm Norman was a hard charger who appears to have wanted to do right and all that has gotten him is a fat legal bill and a tarnished reputation.

He is probably blacklisted as well from securing future employment with or for the GoC or any organization in any way connected to the political elite in this country.  You know, those nice cushy "consulting" jobs all the retired Generals and Admirals take when they retire?

It's like that Green Day song:  "Nice Guys Finish Last"

 

[PuckChaser]

Disclaimer: I've met the MND, but I don't vote for his party.

Honestly, what would you have him do? Speak out against his bosses? Fall on his sword? I sure don't see any senior military officers doing that (maybe aside from VAdm Norman) despite the state the CAF is in...

Concur completely. Once someone hangs up the uniform and runs for a political party (or waits till they win an election then hangs up their uniform in this case), we need to stop considering them out for the best interests of the CAF until they prove it. There's many examples on either sides of the House where those ex-CAF politicians forgot where they came from and just toe the party line. No different than current CAF senior leaders (VAdm Norman excluded); everyone knows who butters their bread.

 

[Kirkhill]

Two other possible reasons:

a. Leslie was likely to be difficult to push around; and/or

b. He might have been perceived as a potential leadership rival to JT, and therefore somebody to be kept out of the spotlight.

Nudder possibility.

Leslie was smarter than allowed and decided that he wanted nothing to do with Defence - for all the reasons referenced above in this thread.  It is a no win situation for anybody with time in.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Matthew Fisher quotes a (brave) serving RCAF officer:

RCAF’s pilot shortage being felt in Romania
...
Mihail Kogălniceanu Air Base, Romania – The first Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) pilot to have intercepted a frontline Russian fighter jet in nearly half a century has laid out the stark challenges facing those who lead Canada’s fighter jet community. As the auditor general concluded in a blistering report published this week, the country has lost so many experienced pilots and technicians that it can no longer defend Canadian air space and carry out NATO missions in Europe.

“My burden as a squadron commander is that I can’t fix the losses quickly enough,” said Lt.-Col. Timothy Woods, who is in charge of Air Task Force Romania. The task force has deployed five jets to the Black Sea port of Constanța for four months, from 425 Tactical Fighter Squadron in Bagotville, Quebec.

“The metric for an experienced pilot is 500 to 750 hours on a CF-18. Some pick up faster than others. It usually takes about four years on squadron. And it takes three to four years to get to squadron. So, it takes seven to eight years to get an experienced pilot.

“The thing we are most worried about is losing our core experienced fighter pilots to train the next generation. That number has been whittled down. It is a cause for concern.”

Wood flew one of two CF-18s that scrambled to intercept a pair of formidable Russian SU-27 Flankers over the Black Sea in October. The Flankers had approached Romanian air space after launching from a base in Russian-occupied Crimea. The highly maneuverable Russian air superiority fighters turned back after the Canadian Hornets came within 500 metres of them.

While the RCAF has often intercepted Russian long-range bombers flying near the margins of Canadian air space in the high Arctic and along the Atlantic and Pacific coasts, it very seldom interacts with Russian fighter jets because they are based in Europe and have a much shorter range.

“Their two airplanes were armed to the teeth. I could see the air-to-air missiles,” Woods said during an interview conducted late last month. “They waved to us. We waved to them. He gave the thumbs-up. I gave the thumbs-up. I gave him a salute and left.

“I would characterize it as a very professional interaction. Whatever the geopolitical situation might be, we both acknowledged that we had a job to do and got on with it. It was not until I was really close that I realized that it was a Flanker. It was very large, much larger than a F-18.”

Ironically, Woods, who as commander is usually involved in administrative matters and planning, was on alert to scramble “because of the loss of so many experienced pilots. I am having to fly more to help with that. I am having to fly about twice a week. The kids are flying four or five times a week.”

Canada’s acute fighter jet pilot and technician shortage was a hot topic in Romania as it has been at bases back in Canada.

“I have no plans to release though this is something that is definitely discussed among the pilots,” said a captain who only has 600 hours on the CF-18. “One-quarter of our pilots – 23 of them – released last year. Most of those who are leaving are mid-level to senior pilots. They are the ones who are the trainers, so finding enough trainers is hard. It is a major problem.”

The young pilot, who did not wish to be identified, said that many of those who have left the RCAF have been hired as instructors by air forces in the Middle East. Others are flying private or commercial airliners.

In a paradox that was not lost on anyone in Romania, some Canadian pilots have been considering whether to join the Royal Australian Air Force because it would give them a chance to fly highly advanced F-35 fighter jets. To fill what the government has claimed is a capability gap, Ottawa decided last fall to spend $500 million to buy 25 RAAF Hornets that the Australians were getting rid of because Canberra had decided to buy the much more capable F-35. Canada has dithered for years over how to replace its Hornets.

“Is that affecting releases? I’d say yes,” said the pilot, who was several years younger than the jet that he flew...
https://www.cgai.ca/rcafs_pilot_shortage_being_felt_in_romania

Mark
Ottawa

 

[CBH99]

I'm glad to hear someone of rank speaking out about issues, and putting the matter really in perspective. 

Can they throw VAdm. Norman under the bus?  Yes.  But only once or twice. 

If enough people with rank start coming forwards & saying "Hey, we can't afford to keep kicking the can down the road.  Make a decision & clean up the mess." - you can't slander/libel all of them, especially when the theme is the same.



I'm always surprised to hear how outspoken USAF officers can be about personnel & aircraft issues, especially in articles on The War Zone, War Is Boring, etc.

 

[dimsum]

I'm always surprised to hear how outspoken USAF officers can be about personnel & aircraft issues, especially in articles on The War Zone, War Is Boring, etc.

Sure, but are they saying the same to their CoC or just venting?

 

[CBH99]

Fair point.

Most of the articles I've read on TWZ, War Is Boring, etc etc - tend to be pretty well informed by currently serving, or recently retired, ranking members with the experience to back up what they are saying.  Some of the articles are about airframe issues, while others tend to be about the general culture of their organization in certain aspects or problems with senior leadership. 

While I definitely agree you do have a point Dimsum, and some of them may just be venting -- it still surprises me that they are ALLOWED to be that publicly outspoken, and write articles for various media outlets while still serving. 


I'm glad the commander of ATF Romania spoke up about some of the challenges he's facing, even if he didn't go into "why" those problems exist. 

 

[Underway]

Two other possible reasons:

a. Leslie was likely to be difficult to push around; and/or

b. He might have been perceived as a potential leadership rival to JT, and therefore somebody to be kept out of the spotlight.

Real answer is Leslie didn't tick enough boxes.

The current MND is from a community, religion and province that will/may/need to deliver votes to the Liberals.  Leslie is not. 

 

[OldSolduer]

Real answer is Leslie didn't tick enough boxes.

The current MND is from a community, religion and province that will/may/need to deliver votes to the Liberals.  Leslie is not.

I think we have the truth here.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Real answer is Leslie didn't tick enough boxes.

The current MND is from a community, religion and province that will/may/need to deliver votes to the Liberals.  Leslie is not.

You may remember on these very threads circa 2015 the vast majority of people on this site expressing a dis-interest in seeing Leslie as MND fir a variety of reasons, notably his transformation plan. I am still glad he wasn't chosen- he had a lit of axes to grind and transformation would have gutted the CAF. That's not to say the current MND is a great choice however, rather that Leslie wasnt a great choice either.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Sure, but are they saying the same to their CoC or just venting?

Trust me, the CoC knows very well.

 

[FSTO]

Trust me, the CoC knows very well.

And the media seems to have finally clued in.
https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2018/11/24/fighter-jet-delays-fuelling-exodus-of-pilots-from-air-force-insiders-say.html

"Flying a 30-year-old jet holds less appeal for pilots who are no longer prepared to sacrifice quality of life and are instead quitting for airline careers, where demand for experienced personnel is sky-high." (more at the link)

 

[SupersonicMax]

I think the key message is that we cannot train ourselves out of it: we need to retain experience first.  We are becoming critically short of experience (ie: pilots qualified to teach wingmen how to become leads) to the point that almost only Majors and LCols are qualified to do so.

We’ve been told for years now that steps are being taken to address retention yet we haven’t seen anythting concrete, other than the “sticks” (restricted release after doing a refresher for example) but definately no “carrots”.  People are getting tired of empty promises and COs can’t answer questions like “Why should I stay?” anymore with any credibility.

 

[observor 69]

"They say several factors are at play in the exodus of pilots. These include exasperation over the delayed purchase of replacement jets that are now not expected for a decade or more, as well as a desire for better quality of life away from the two main fighter bases in Cold Lake, Alta., and Bagotville, Que."

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2018/11/24/fighter-jet-delays-fuelling-exodus-of-pilots-from-air-force-insiders-say.html

Some of this might also contribute to a lack of aircraft technicians.