Sudden questions regarding LAV III and roll-overs

[KevinB]

Geo, a number of people spoke out about the Iltis -- while I agree with you -- by the time of the mine strike they where abject POS's.  This issue is entirely different.

I'm not a LAV driver, but I have gunned and commanded them.  At this point in time all of us who are Drivers or CC/gunners do not have enough info as we where not there -- let alone all the self proclaimed SME's on the subject whop are blathering away.  One unnamed individual who purports himself to be a SME had the audacity to blame the crew - basing it on unfamiliarity/incompetance.  Now having been deployed to Afghan and seen who much driving a LAV crew can amase I have a few issues with that commentator.

One of our members here was involved in a non injurt rollover on a previous tour -- and several of us who are board members have had vehicle to vehicle, vehicle to pedestrain, paracowboy to vehicle etc accidents.  The roads are not up to what most Canadians would call a road -- there is not to no traffic control -- occasionally you will see Police who may or may not decide they want to enforce traffic laws -- The locals have absolutely NO respect for any traffic laws, barricade and NATO/Coalition vehicles (unless you are pointing your weapon at them).

The LAV in its many flavours is a combat tested vehicle used by Canada and other nations - to wit the US has built its Stryker brigades upon a LAVIII chasis. 

WE ALL NEED TO TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND AWAIT THE OFFICIAL RESULTS OF THE INCIDENT REPORT.

 

[geo]

Hey Kevin,
agree with you... I just think that, with the publication of the press release about the LAV, NDHQ should have released a background document about Vehicle AND the country where it was operating... be it goat trails, dry river beds. No need to go into great detail - but something had to be said... and it wasn't - which required the media people to go to their private "military experts" with little if any competence... and we get it into the neck once again... because the Media felt it had to deliver "breaking news" cause the public has a right to know.... whatever that's supposed to mean.

 

[KevinB]

PAFO's are incompetant.

But any reporter who wanted the real story would fly to Gagetown and talk to both 2RCR rear party and the Infantry School (some of the MWO's who where involved in the LAV program...)

 

[Strike]

A 24-year-old Quebec soldier, Pte. Patrick Dessureault, died earlier this year when a LAV-III rolled over into a river during a training exercise in Alberta.

Love how they neglect to mention how the ground gave way, thereby causing the accident.

 

[Britney Spears]

paracowboy to vehicle etc accidents.

Wow, did anyone in the vehicle survive? I hope he checked his ROE card before using that kind of force.....

Hopefully, this will prompt more training in third-world-driving, which will be a good thing.

 

[KevinB]

He forgot while Maroon Berets and Airborne Shirts are well known to be bullet proof -- they are not always Taxi proof...

 

[futuresoldier]

This topic is concerning the LAV III rollovers. Thats 2 deaths so far this year, and I am just wondering. "Is this likely to happen more in the future? What caused these rollovers? Will we be getting a replacement vehicle any time soon?" The media will ask, but where are the answers?

 

[KevinB]

Hey cheesehead -- STFU on something you know DICK about!

2nd portion edited due to mod's combining the topic.

#1 still stands

 

[WogCpl]

Well Said Kevin!

Wheeled Armoured vehicles have been rolling over and killing people for years AVGP's, Bisons, Coyote's, most of the time the troops sit too high out of the hatch, up to their waist for example. As far as drowning upsidedown in the drivers hatch, my heart goes out to that Vandoo, cause that f***in' sucks large. I have always thought some kind of bail out bottle should be fitted into any AFV for the driver/crew. Just enough so recovery can extract them, would also help in those crappy Halon situations!

 

[TCBF]

"Earlier, the safety of the military vehicle, known as a LAV-III, was called into question after a media report claimed the army had been warned that "speed and driver inexperience" were frequent causes of rollovers."

- Let me get this straight:  the safety of a vehicle was called into question because two human factors were called into question.  What does that have to do with the LAV III?

"... Halon situations.":

BANG!  ...  "Did we just lose a bottle?"

- Loud, aren't they?

;D

Tom

 

[WogCpl]

Tom,

you are so right, if you left a LAV III alone for the night still on it's wheels, i am 100% sure it would not flip onto it's turret by morning.
And yes they are loud....and paperwork generating.

 

[Gunner]

If you go to the CKNW site, click on the audio vault button, and pull up the 1100 hrs file for today (27 Nov 05), you can hear the pro's and con's of LAVIII from xxxxx xxxxxxxx and Col Howie Marsh (retired). Comments are about 20 mins into the Peter Warren Program.

www.cknw.com

 

[KevinB]

Tom, excellent point.

Secondly I wonder what they consider frequent.  Keep in mind that these vehicles are operated 24/7 regardless of weather...


Don't get me wrong I HATE mech infantry, but what I hate more, is some clown offering his opinion on something he hasn't a schmick about.

This is SPECIFICALLY aimed at the comments Gunner pointed out

Now correct me if I am wrong but neither the good Col (ret.) or the journalist David P are LAVIII qualified as driver, gunner/crew commander?  Nor I doubt have they crewed one operationally...  I really dont care what they say either or -- they have no valid frame of reference to be talking about it - PERIOD
(I dont care to offer my email to them (CKNW) so I wont be listening)

 

[TCBF]

Howie Marsh was Armour.  He knows why AFVs flip over, and what can happen when they do.  How many Centurian crewmen did we lose when their 'Agony Wagon' went into 'Mexican Overdrive'?

I have been CC ing a Lynx that ended up sort-of on it's side, a Cougar that roled onto it's side when it went from being on a road to on a frozen river.  I was pax in the cab of an M135 Cdn that rolled onto it's back in the rhubarb.  I have seen  Coyote on it's side. 

What about the guys killed by the Leopard hydraulics over the years?  Or Tpr Zufelt killed by his Coyote seat in 1999?

Tom

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Don't get me wrong I HATE mech infantry, but what I hate more, is some clown offering his opinion on something he hasn't a schmick about.

Exactly.  Cougar crews were always aware of the potential for rolling the vehicle, as are Coyote crews (the two vehicles I have experience with in this particular context - I've never CC'd a LAV III) and there is NOTHING new here.  AFAIK, none of those offering ATI-generated speculation on the cause of the accident or on the vehicle have the slightest experience with it (Howie may have Cougar time).

Message to the media - let the investigation run its course and then offer criticism if warrented.  Engaging in speculation, inaccurate comparisons with the US Stryker experience (our vehicles have turrets, making them vastly different to handle) or ill-conceived attacks on what is generally regarded as a fine vehicle does no one any good at all.

Tom:  oddly, I thought of the seat accident too...

 

[KevinB]

Tom, anyone who has driven in a car either as driver or passenger - or watched the news can see how vehicles roll over.  My issue was the LAV itself, since that was the issue at hand.  I've flipped Iltis's (or is it Ilti in plural?)  I've driven a 113 Dozer, AVGP etc... I'm not a LAVIII driver, but I've crewed one, and done it operationally as well (as much as I hate to admit it).  

A mechanical engineer could explain, how and why vehicles do what they do under different circumstances far better than a retired Armoured Col.  -- neither could give you the first person perspecitve that one of the hundreds of LAVIII drivers that have driven in Afghanistan could give you.  We always tell people not to comments beyond your arc...

Want first person commentary - head up to 1PPCLI, 1RCR, 2RCR and 1 (IIRC it was 1) R22eR - all who have sent LAV crews to Afghanistan - with a full combat load, with add on armour, with troops hanging out of the airsentry/family hatches to make sure no one gets behind you...

Then you will get a fair an honest opinion of the vehicle.


Everyone else is just an oxygen theif.









 

 

[WogCpl]

Hey, we may be wogs but some of us Mechanics actually do know a thing or to about vehicles as well, having peeled them of the road to varying degrees. ;D

 

[TCBF]

Two issues I guess:

1. The LAV III and it's performance envelope cbt loaded c/w add on armour: if you ain't drove it - you ain't.

2.  Everything else that rolls:  how general knowedge of that should allow people to stop asking stupid questions or making stupid statements.

Tom

 

[KevinB]

Tom,

You forgot #3 Kevin spelled Theif wrong (D'Oh)

But good points

 

[Kat Stevens]

Holy crap, man!  I'm no fan of the boat fleet, but come on.  Given the right, or wrong rather, conditions, even the most stable platform can fall over.  How about all the boats that haven't fallen over yet?  Nobody talks about them, but I bet they're out there...