Successul trials held for direct fire system

[Zipper]

Ga? Ironic isn't it?

Its the fact that they are trying to replace the Leopards with the MGS that makes it all the more hurtful.

The 25mm only has a certain penetration capability, and so to take out the benefits of a cannon would not be very smart. (I can't believe I just defended the MGS in some way! Sheesh.)

Sigh.

Now, where is Huey and Louie? ;D

 

[EODSpr]

I know this is flavour of the month and most likely a common chassis/dollar issue but it just seems strange how so many people can be opposed to this purchase inside and outside of Canada and yet the powers that be are still going ahead with it. I wonder what it will be like after we actually receive these pieces of kit. I guess time will tell.

Utterly confused   ???

E45

Chimo!

 

[George Wallace]

Well I would have to admit that 25 mm Chainguns are a little more potent than a .50 Cal or 7.62 mm GPMG.

Gw

 

[STONEY]

I still believe that the Leo c2 despite its shortcomings (many) is still better than the alternatives proposed by NDHQ.  Simply put, a MBT of any type charging at you full bore firing its main gun has a higher sphincter factor than a MGS , ADATS ETC.  A good question is , do all the so called brain trust at NDHQ really believe in these so called "transformation ideas"  or is it just trying to fit square pegs in round holes. We know that they are not all stupid , can it just be that they are unable to articulate or justify these idea's to the Military rather than the general public who will believe anything. Let's face it , it would be a lot easier to understand  if we were just converting a small percentage of the Army like the USA rather than the whole Army. Does changing to DFS system really make you any more mobile , despite a few systems going by chartered air since Hercs can't lift them the bulk would still be going by sea where it really dosn't matter if the kit weighs 20 or 70 tons. When thay arrive do you think the opposition would shiver in their boots seeing armoured cars or some real ARMOUR.

 

[George Wallace]

Unfortunately, I think many of the decisions being made are a result of the Cold War and the relative Peace that we have experienced for the last sixty years.  None of our top Generals and Admirals have actually experienced combat as young officers and therefore have not faced the fears experienced in a battle and the effects the various weapons systems have had on creating those fears. 

I know someone will respond that these officers have been is some "Hot Spots", but have they really?It  Very few of them have really.  It was the Rank and File who fought in the Medac Pocket, the officers were far removed in their CPs.  It was the Rank and File who had to face the incoming rounds and experience the sights and sounds of battle.  The Officers waited for reports from the front to make their decisions.  They did not experience the sights and sounds of the battle, so didn't experience the fears exuded by enemy weapons system.  With the exception of the Platoon Commanders, few of the Officers truly experienced first hand any of this.  Whatever conflict we have been in over the last few decades, have not provided much of this insight on our current leadership.  Therefore, when it comes to trimming, they will listen to the "Bean Counters" and do away with our most effective tools for cheaper, less effective ones.

They have forgotten, or never experienced, the psychological effects of various weapons systems employed on the Battlefield.  Anyone experienced with Tanks will know what kinds of fear they produce when introduced into a battle, or even moved up to close proximity to an area in the middle of a night. 

We are destined to reinvent the wheel and have to relearn all our mistakes over again.

GW

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

The MGS is not a tank replacement.  That's what they will keep tell us and the public.  That said the MGS as horrible protection and will only be survivable if its far removed from the sh!t.  I think I read that on the move its first round hit rate is 40% against a moving target as well.  I can not fathom doing a section/platton/coy etc attack with these things.  If the desire of the CF is to focus on FIBUA then they better take a long hard look at the lessons learned from Iraq.  And when they tell you that you will never go it along offer to give them a ride in your MGS or LAV III in Faluja.  The armoured fist is now made out of aluminium for all intesive purposes.

 

[Zipper]

But thats the whole point.

The Government, and those at the top who haven't been in the sh!t don't want us there. Simple.

They want to turn us into a stand off and support military that has to fill in the gaps of other countries military's rear areas, and to do light intensity "patrol" type work so that they can say we are contributing, but they don't have to spend the money.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Thats fine as long as they don't forget that and the enemy doesn't flank our allies.

 

[plattypuss]

Let's just remember the nature of the threat.  We are no longer going to be committed into action against the Russian hordes or against a tank based army on aan open front.  As the theorists are fond of saying the world is becoming more urban, thus more battle will be fought in the urban environment.  The American experience so far with the SBCT in Iraq has so far, proven that the Styrker with Slat armour can defeat both RPG and IED attack.  Yes I would prefer to have the Abrams underneath me and yes I love the rumble of the Leopard when it starts up. But part of the fear inspired by the tank rumble also warns the enemy that we are coming, especially when magnified in the urban environment.  The Stryker apparently puts fear in the enemy now because it can litterally sneak up on you.  Keep in mind that in the urban environment tanks should never work alone and this will be true for the MGS.  I agree that the MGS may not be ideal but it does offer advantages.  The government has made a commitment or policy as to what type of operation we are to be involved with in the future, whether this is based on understanding of our capabilities or sound advice from the leaders, is up for debate.  The MGS is not being used by the Americans to replace tanks like we are, but Canada is not alone in adopting a primarily wheeled fleet, even the Brits are re-rolling a large chunk of their Armoured units.  For the type of operations we will face in the future the MGS is sufficient for our needs. :-\

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

You also forgot to mention that the Americans swear by small tank unit tactics in urban ops.  I don't know how stealthy an MGS is going to be in Urban operations.  The LAV is huge.

 

[George Wallace]

Well, if we want to go with the MGS then we would probably be wise to look into improving/increasing the upper limits of elevation, especially if we are "going to use it in Urban combat".

GW

 

[Cloud Cover]

For the type of operations we will face in the future the MGS is sufficient for our needs. :-\

So much for our plan to take over the world.  :'(

 

[Kirkhill]

OK, try this one on for size.

The MBT is an Assault Vehicle that does Fire Support.

We don't have MBTs and Heavy APCs therefore we are out of the Mounted Assault business.

The MGS/TUA/MMEV systems are all Fire Support systems that will deploy BEHIND the Forward Line Own Troops.

Arty handles Fire Support.

Therefore hand the MGS/TUA/MMEV over to the Arty and let the Cavalry Corps get on with Recce, Patrols and Rapid Displacements to a Flank.

 

[EODSpr]

Now prior to receiving a new piece of kit that we are inventing tactics for we are retiring our armour and limiting ourselves to static engagements. Pretty hard to go on the offence when you are static. I believe it was stated previously that the MGS only has a 40% hit ratio while on the move.

As a Sapper I don't profess to be a major tactician, but it seems to me that until we actually receive the MGS and the LAV TUA and the LAV ADATS and exhaustively exercise these new tactics to see that they work. We should maintain a modern combat capable MBT that is tried and true. They don't have to be new, just better than what we have.

As it sits now if the MGS turns out to be crap then we will have wasted hundreds of millions of dollars and be without any armour. If it works out fine well then you retire the MBT, but not until you are sure the new system will work.

Just the opinion of a humble Sapper.

E45

Chimo!

 

[Cloud Cover]

E-45: are you suggesting some sort of fixed term lease, ala no down payment, 0% financing, contact your local Krauss dealer?  *




Limited time offer, offer ends at commencement of hostilities. See local arms dealer for details. 20,000 km, $45 each kilometer over. Accessories and ammunition not included. Taxes due upon signing. Factory incentives and rebates assignable to dealer. Void where prohibited by UN trade restrictions.   

 

[EODSpr]

That sound like an offer that would be acceptable the government. :

 

[Zipper]

Let's just remember the nature of the threat.   We are no longer going to be committed into action against the Russian hordes or against a tank based army on an open front.   As the theorists are fond of saying the world is becoming more urban, thus more battle will be fought in the urban environment.   The American experience so far with the SBCT in Iraq has so far, proven that the Styrker with Slat armour can defeat both RPG and IED attack.   Yes I would prefer to have the Abrams underneath me and yes I love the rumble of the Leopard when it starts up. But part of the fear inspired by the tank rumble also warns the enemy that we are coming, especially when magnified in the urban environment.   The Stryker apparently puts fear in the enemy now because it can litterally sneak up on you.   Keep in mind that in the urban environment tanks should never work alone and this will be true for the MGS.   I agree that the MGS may not be ideal but it does offer advantages.   The government has made a commitment or policy as to what type of operation we are to be involved with in the future, whether this is based on understanding of our capabilities or sound advice from the leaders, is up for debate.   The MGS is not being used by the Americans to replace tanks like we are, but Canada is not alone in adopting a primarily wheeled fleet, even the Brits are re-rolling a large chunk of their Armoured units.   For the type of operations we will face in the future the MGS is sufficient for our needs. :-\

First off. I could have sworn that there are more countries then just Russia that can field tanks? In fact, most of the country's in the Middle East do. Maybe not en-masse and across a wide front. But to discount the idea of massed armies for all time is foolish at best. Deadly at worst. And lets just say for the sake of argument, that the Croats/Surbs had Serbsed to take further exception to our presence when we were there? We'd be in a world of hurt. Same with Somalia. If the technicals had more access to fuel, it would have gone very bad for us. It didn't luckily. But we cannot rely on that happening each time.

The comment of the Government understanding our capabilities is very much up for debate. No disrespect to our new CDS who I think is a stand up guy. But the very position of CDS (as well as any of the heads) is to put the best face forward on our forces to the politicians and public. Its political suicide otherwise. The powers that be on capitol hill don't give a rats a*s beyond the bottom line, and the public just sees what is presented to them, thus they are ignorant of most of it. Thus the MGS, which if you read this and other threads on the subject is in severe question
even with the American forces. Its a bad piece of kit beyond a simple light stand off fire support platform.

And I'm sorry to say as for being sufficient for our needs...                          ...well I guess we're getting the short end of the stick as always and we'll continue to be a joke on the world stage. That is if we are even going to be able to transport them anywhere.

The MGS/TUA/MMEV systems are all Fire Support systems that will deploy BEHIND the Forward Line Own Troops.

Arty handles Fire Support.

Therefore hand the MGS/TUA/MMEV over to the Arty and let the Cavalry Corps get on with Recce, Patrols and Rapid Displacements to a Flank.

Sigh. Your probably right again Kirkhill. but arn't those tasks being handed to the Infantry? There is no Armour in the Forces anymore. Just glorified IFV's and support vehicles.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

It was my understanding that TUA's always deployed ahead of the troops.

 

[George Wallace]

It was my understanding that TUA's always deployed ahead of the troops.

It has always been my experience that TUA's deployed on flanks, behind forward troops in defensive positions or in Ambush Positions.   But I am only and Armour Guy and to this date I don't ever recall Friendly TOW ever being to my front.


GW

 

[a_majoor]

I would have far fewer reservations about the MGS/TOW/MMEV "troika" if any of these pieces of kit could successfuly fire on the move.