Robocall et al issue - Fed 2011 election

[Kalatzi]

I read some of the other posts on this thread where members were taking me to task.

Also Recceguys last post. You know what I reallly really hope that they are right, and I'm just a best a nut job.

Taking a look at the media this morning it doesn't look like I am.

And this is Soooo not good, not just for Canada but for Western liberal Democracies as well.

I note  that outcome in Etobicoek Centre is now before the courts.

Also the association that advocates for companies doing telephone surveys etc is investigateing RMG the group that did much of the phone work for the CPC campaign.

Whoulda thunk that telemarketers wouldn't  want to be associated with this kinda nonsense >

I also note that reports are starting to come in about the provincial campaign

Why the timing. Well if your on the recewiving end of this in the federal campaign, and know that a provincial campaign, where the same tactiics are likelly to be repeated. Why not wait, see what happens, and then take action.

I summarise by noting again that these types of tactics do a grave disservice to everyone, including the originators as they serve to further weaken the fabric of our legendary Western liberal Democracies.

That is why I and many others feel it so important to resolve this matter

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
Oh me, oh my, are the liebrals caught inside their own fish trap?
...

No, I don't think so. My suspicion is that this is an individual, maybe a few separate individuals, who is/are (a) political partisan(s) but who is/are not associated with any of the parties.  This smells like a prank that a twenty-something/recent university grad, political wannabee might think up ~ most likely after his (it smells like a guy) application to work on a campaign was rejected because he was deemed to be too immature.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Part of the difficulty of keeping all this straight in my own brain cell is different types of calls being lumped together:
1)  "Robocalls" reportedly telling people they have to go somewhere else to vote than they originally planned
2)  Real people calls reportedly telling people they have to go somewhere else to vote than they originally planned
3)  Real people calls reportedly telling people in a sometimes allegedly rude or pressing way "you should vote for this party, not that"

1 & 2 can be caused by:
- organized + sanctioned ill intent
- organized + unsanctioned ill intent (sexy for the opposition, which is why this is being flogged)
- random ill intent
- organized and/or random idiocy/stupidity (not as sexy, but still lets the opposition point fingers)
- ill briefed/informed/trained call centre workers
- bad source/database info (not nearly as sexy, and less subject to pointing of partisan fingers)
- (add your own theory here)

3 strikes me as an extreme end of the way the game is played (pushy folks?  some involved as volunteers and/or staff in politics?  what a concept!)

Then there's the alleged players:
1)  campaign consulting/advisory companies
2)  call centres (hired by (1) or political parties)
3)  individuals within party apparatuses (apparati?)
4)  political parties (unlikely, but the opposition presses....)

Any other factors I'm missing here?

That's why I look forward to clear reporting of some kind by Elections Canada and/or RCMP on this.

 

[Privateer]

Oh me, oh my, are the liebrals caught inside their own fish trap?

Nope.  It looks like the Con's jumped the gun without checking their "facts":  http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/1221254309/ID=2204463603

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Nope.  It looks like the Con's jumped the gun without checking their "facts":  http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/1221254309/ID=2204463603

CBC and, especially, Milewski are way too partisan to be taken seriously on just about anything political concerning the Tories.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Nope.  It looks like the Con's jumped the gun without checking their "facts":  http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/1221254309/ID=2204463603

CBC and, especially, Milewski are way too partisan to be taken seriously on just about anything political concerning the Tories.

A bit more detail from an exchange in the House of Commons yesterday on this company thing....

.... Hon. Ralph Goodale (Wascana, Lib.):  Mr. Speaker, pertaining to matters that arose during question period, there was a fair bit of confusion, indeed obfuscation, about a company called First Contact. In fact there is a Canadian telephone company by that name that does business entirely in Canada. That is the company that was engaged by Liberals and Liberal candidates across the country. There is, unfortunately, another company by exactly the same name that does business in the United States. That company, the Liberal Party did not do any business with.

(....)

Hon. Peter Van Loan (Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, CPC):  Mr. Speaker, the letter to the editor that was written by the Liberal candidate and read by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister actually stated that it is a Canadian company that uses American servers, and that is why American phone numbers showed up on the calls they made. That was the explanation and that is exactly what goes to the root of what we are talking about here ....

 

[ModlrMike]

A refreshingly reasonable article on the subject:

Coyne: Robocon is a scandal with no clear pattern
By Andrew Coyne, Postmedia News February 29, 2012

A week after the story of the fraudulent robocalls first broke — or rather re-broke, the rudiments of the story having been reported at the time of the last election — the scandal remains a puzzle.

More at Link.

 

[Edward Campbell]

They, maybe, should have given Pat Martin a chance to retract and apologize ... but it, the lawsuit reported in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, is poetic justice:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/alberta-firm-at-centre-of-robo-call-probe-sues-bombastic-ndp-mp/article2357127/

Alberta firm at centre of robo-call probe sues bombastic NDP MP

DANIEL LEBLANC

OTTAWA— Globe and Mail Update
Posted on Friday, March 2, 2012

NDP MP Pat Martin has been sued for defamation by an Alberta robo-caller that was hired to transmit misleading polling information to voters in Guelph during the last election.

RackNine Inc. filed a statement of claim in Edmonton Friday alleging that it has fully collaborated with the ongoing Elections Canada investigation into the matter and has not engaged in any irregularities. RackNine was used to send out robo-calls in the Ontario riding last year, but the company said any wrongdoing was the work of the unidentified political operative who created an account with the firm and paid for the calls to be sent out.

Mr. Martin attacked the company in a number of public appearances, pointing to its ties with right-wing political parties and linking it to the illicit activities. In its statement of claim, RackNine quotes extensively from recent statements made by Mr. Martin, who has been his party’s point-man on the robo-call controversy.

On Feb. 23, Mr. Martin compared RackNine to Groupaction Marketing Inc., a company whose president has been convicted of fraud in relation to the sponsorship scandal that hurt the Liberal Party in the 2000s.

“I predict that RackNine will become the Conservative Party’s Groupaction, and I predict that we will find that the sheer magnitude and audacity of the ‘RackNine rascals’ will be enough to make Richard Nixon blush,” Mr. Martin said at a news conference.

RackNine alleged in its statement of claim that Mr. Martin’s comments “carried the innuendo that [the firm] had committed criminal activity, fraudulent activity, participated in a conspiracy, intimidation, sabotage and/or deceit.”

On Friday, Mr. Martin said RackNine is acting too quickly, without giving him the opportunity to respond to its recent request for an apology.

“Seems a bit premature to file before you've even had a response from the person you're demanding an apology from,” Mr. Martin said in an email. “I guess its standard libel chill, slap suit stuff. Silence your critics with your chequebook.”

In a recent statement, RackNine president Matt Meier insisted his firm has collaborated with Elections Canada from the start and has done nothing wrong, comparing itself to a car-rental company whose vehicle was misused by one of its clients.

“RackNine is a non-partisan firm, free from any party affiliation, bias, or designation. We couldn’t possibly have known that the fake calls were made using our services,” Mr. Meier said in the statement. “RackNine does not monitor outgoing calls made by customers through the automated service, we just provide the software and hardware platforms.”

Elections Canada has determined that someone hiding under the alias of “Pierre Poutine” used a disposable cellphone to create a RackNine account in the days leading to the May 2 election. The account was then used to call thousands of voters in Guelph to direct them to the wrong polling station.

Anything Pat Martin, or anyone else, says, inside the House of Common, even in Committees, is protected by parliamentary privilege but he's both glib and very partisan so he is a popular off the hill speaker and I guess he let his enthusiasm for partisanship get ahead of his better judgement.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Stephan Taylor's blog has a copy of the law suit and according to the document Martin and the NDP are being sued for statements/actions that took pave outside Parliament, so, no immunity. As always, these allegations remain to be proven in court.

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/

 

[Rifleman62]

recceguy:

CBC and, especially, Milewski are way too partisan to be taken seriously on just about anything political concerning the Tories.

Lets play, "What will the media say?", a game that easily predicts where the news report is going.

http://paulsrants-paulsstuff.blogspot.com/2012/03/media-thinks-online-petition-is.html

Media Thinks Online Petition Is A Complaint Filed With Elections Canada

Wow. Lefties decry the fact they think Conservatives are using American style campaign tactics, oblivious to the fact they themselves are guilty of American-style journalism, that being twisting the truth. No make that outright lying about the facts.

Alberta Aardvark has a great post up showing the utter lack of ethics and integrity in Canadian journalism. That a supposedly reputable media source could run a headline claiming there are over 31,000 complaints filed with Elections Canada, when EC is simply the victim of the NDP led by Ian Capstick and Robin Sears running an online petition and including the head of EC's email as one of the recipients boggles the mind.

http://thealbertaardvark.blogspot.com/

31,000 contacts to Election's Canada on Robo Calls. I think I, and the NDP, might know why.

It was all over the media this morning. Reports of 31,000 complaints* to Elections Canada on Robo Calls. (*While it was clarified that it was 31,000 contacts and not complaints, the media ran with it often repeating the "complaints" line rather than the fact that they were contacts and not complaints)

What you didn't hear about from our ever vigilant media is just where those 'contacts' may have came from.

Take a look at this page from leadnow.ca and take a good look at the number of "messages sent" to Elections Canada.  See something interesting?

8 hrs after the 31,000 number appears it now reads upward of 36,000. ALL of which have been sent to Elections Canada and if you read the wording of the email that will be sent when you click, it is definitely not a complaint of robo calling.

Oh and while you are there be sure to look at their about page. It looks like what you might find on a list for an NDP strategy meeting. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... It was all over the media this morning. Reports of 31,000 complaints* to Elections Canada on Robo Calls. (*While it was clarified that it was 31,000 contacts and not complaints, the media ran with it often repeating the "complaints" line rather than the fact that they were contacts and not complaints) ....

Heard the same story line on CBC Radio as late in the day as 5:30pm Eastern - now we have a bit of the REST of the story....

.... if you read the wording of the email that will be sent when you click, it is definitely not a complaint of robo calling ....

For sure - here's the wording (won't include the link, lest we crank up their hit stats):

Dear Prime Minister Harper, Mr Corbett, Mr Paulson, Ms Turmel, Mr Rae, Ms. May and Mr. Plamondon,

I am gravely concerned by the Elections Canada report that has just traced illegal phone calls made during the 2011 federal election to a company that worked for the Conservative Party across the country.

The “robocalls” were apparently designed to stop non-Conservative voters from casting ballots in key ridings by falsely telling voters that the location of their polling stations had changed, causing them to go to the wrong location on election day.

This news casts doubt on the legitimacy of our Government. We need answers now, and real consequences for illegal behaviour that may have determined the outcome of our election.

I demand a full and independent public inquiry, backed by Elections Canada and the RCMP, to expose the facts about the robocall scandal and ensure that the penalty for this election fraud matches the consequences of the crime - including new elections.

We cannot allow individuals to be scapegoated for actions that benefit institutions. We need to lay the foundation for new laws to restore the integrity of Canadian elections.

Good catch R62

 

[ModlrMike]

Stephan Taylor's blog has a copy of the law suit and according to the document Martin and the NDP are being sued for statements/actions that took pave outside Parliament, so, no immunity. As always, these allegations remain to be proven in court.

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/

Mr Martin has caracterized this as a SLAPP suit: (taken from CBC.ca)

Martin told CBC he is "disappointed" that RackNine would "pull the trigger before they'd even seen the response to their original complaint."

"Classic libel-chill slap-suit tactic I guess. How to silence someone with your chequebook," Martin wrote in an email.

 

[Edward Campbell]

My hunch (it isn't even well enough informed to be a guess) is that Prime Minister Harper either:

1. Kicked this over to Elections Canada and the RCMP because, as Jean Chrétien so ably demonstrated, that's the way to make problems go away; or

2. Knows the whole story and is 100% confident that it is not going to hurt the Conservative Party but is waiting for the opposition and the media - and he hates the media more than he hates Liberals - to dig themselves deeper and deeper into it before he springs a trap and shows them to be foolish old women making a big fuss over nothing.

I find it very, very hard to believe that professional political operators would be stupid enough to commit a clear offense against the Elections Act for such small stakes. I think "in and out" was an honest attempt at "pushing the envelope;" it failed but not because the Tories thought they were breaking the law; they thought they could bend the rules to suit their purposes - Elections Canada disagreed, the Tories "lost" but it was not a crime. This is different and that's why it smells, to me, like an undergrad prank gone wrong.

 

[Rifleman62]

http://digital.nationalpost.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

Political puppet master busted

MIKE FAILLE / NATIONAL POST

MONDAY

Look at these front pages across the nation: “Pierre Poutine linked to robocall scandal”; “Could Pierre Poutine be the demon dialer behind robocalls?”; “Is Pierre Poutine the man who stole Canadian democracy?” It’s nice to finally get some recognition, Canada. I’m surprised it took you so long to find the man who handpicked your G8 government. And I did it all from right here, my sprawling Separatist Street lair buried deep beneath Joliette, Que.


In the days and hours before Election Day, it was here that my legions of grey-uniformed henchmen directed naïve constituents to fake voting places on mountaintops, inside grizzly bear dens and on highway medians. They called on the Jewish sabbath, the Christian sabbath, the Bahá’í sabbath, the Wiccan sabbath. Ten thousand Ndpers in southern Saskatchewan never saw the inside of a voting booth because they were busy fitting plastic bags over their phone receivers after someone told them Sasktel was “blowing out the lines.”

TUESDAY

Pat Martin screams in the House today that the electoral system has been “compromised by American dirty tricks.” Dean Del Mastro screams back that NDP coffers are stuffed with ill-gotten money. Dance, you vapid marionettes; I am your puppet master! Oh, but if those rubes knew the true scope and genius of my May 2 masterpiece. Every Liberal in Downtown Montreal woke up that morning to a flaming paper bag filled with dog poop on their front step. Yet all it took to keep the Grits home in Michael Ignatieff ’s riding was a brilliantly pre-arranged Fawlty Towers TV marathon.

Many can pull off electoral fraud; few can make it a magnum opus. Obviously it was supposed to be a Liberal majority with the Green Party in Opposition. Only a man as clever and conniving as Pierre Poutine could have turned the election map blue, with a dash of orange in Quebec for flair. Thirty-three million people are my palette and the world’s second-largest land mass is my canvas. Compared to me, Rembrandt, Leonardo and

Van Gogh are but mere napkin doodlers.

WEDNESDAY

Today, I brood. Fifty years I’ve been at this, 17 federal elections, countless provincial races and yet, sometimes … I feel so empty.

In 1980, I derailed the Quebec referendum by ordering a dozen pizzas to every address in Bas-saint-laurent. I gave that awkward Prairie newspaperman Joe Clark a taste of the big leagues by scaring away the B.C. vote using polling stations strewn with rotting salmon. If it wasn’t for me putting shaving cream in the bath towels of every Turner supporter in western Quebec, Brian Mulroney would still be a nobody labour lawyer in Montreal.

But I admit I’ve always had a soft spot for the Liberals; I’ve never tired of the beauty of naïve idealism blossoming into sweet, systemic corruption. That is, until 2004 when I met a nerdy economist named Stephen Harper in a Gatineau parking garage. A cold, calculating automaton. Like me, a man unhindered by emotion, warmth or worry. He’d become the son I’d never had, and I knew at once he was to be my next political spawn. Why tease him with two minority governments? Pierre Poutine brought Stephen Harper into this world, and Pierre Poutine can take him out. It’s a lesson he won’t soon forget.

THURSDAY

I was inspecting my overly elaborate laser-perimeter when my henchmen brought me an intruder found roaming the grounds: my old friend Bob Rae. Poor woebegone old

Bobby Rae. He was just a sad sack in oversized Sally Jesse Raphael glasses when I turned him into a star by tying together the shoelaces of every Tory west of London. And now, the disheveled wretch dares stand before me and demand I give up my ways? “Your time is done, Poutine. It’s time to let the voters decide who takes power.” Judas! I am the only power in this country, Rae! The revelation! The life force at the root of all things! Canadian voters are a destructive, dangerous force. They must be controlled.

FRIDAY

A sharp clang on the roof summoned me to my periscope. Peering out, my suspicions are confirmed: Elections Canada agents rappelling down the walls and fording the crocodile moat. My worthless henchmen insist on clumsily attacking one at a time, only to be instantly knocked out by the agents’ potent karate chops. To the stealth helicopter! Those chumps may breach my secret lair, however they will not find Pierre Poutine but rather a stunning barrage of toilet paper and silly string.

Ah well. It’s about time I shook off the dust of Joliette, Que. To the snow-dusted plains of Alberta, the only place left where a worldweary election-fixer can truly stretch his legs. Premier Danielle Smith? An opposition caucus comprised exclusively of horses? Maybe I’ll see if the Socreds can still field a full slate of candidates. Robocalls, robotexts, robo-candidates, and Saran Wrap on every toilet seat in Edmonton. I feel it: This is going to be the one they’ll remember me for.

 

[Edward Campbell]

More evidence, not proof, that the Conservatives are 99.99% sure they are "clean" on the robo-call issue, in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/top-tory-organizer-denies-dirty-tricks-in-last-years-election/article2358153/

Top Tory organizer denies dirty tricks in last year’s election

DANIEL LEBLANC

OTTAWA— Globe and Mail Update
Posted on Sunday, March 4, 2012


A top Conservative organizer is denying any dirty tricks or black ops in the 2011 election, while acknowledging that allegedly fraudulent robo-calls in the riding of Guelph deserve to be investigated by Elections Canada.

Guy Giorno, the former chief of staff to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and the Conservative campaign chair last year, said that he hopes that Elections Canada, with the aide of the RCMP, gets to the bottom of the Guelph controversy. Mr. Giorno said he is concerned by the events in that riding, while he cautioned the situation in Guelph cannot be extrapolated to the rest of the country.

“It looks like there is something worth investigating there and that's a concern to me, to you, to all Canadians because the right to vote is sacrosanct and anyone who wants to mess around with that right, interfere with that right is doing not just the Conservative Party, not just the people of Guelph, but all Canadians a disservice,” Mr. Giorno said on CTV’s Question Period.

“I wish Godspeed to Elections Canada and the RCMP investigators. We want them to get to the bottom of this and let’s hope the full weight of the law is applied to any and all,” he said.

According to evidence in court documents, a political operative used the alias of “Pierre Poutine” last year to purchase a disposable cell phone and launch robo-calls to direct non-Conservative voters in Guelph to the wrong polling station.

Mr. Giorno insisted the Conservative campaign used a series of legitimate tools, such as phone canvassing, to identify its supporters and get them to the voting station last year.

“When you're running a good campaign, you don't have time for any shenanigans outside those three core activities of identification, persuasion and mobilization [of voters],” he said.

He insisted that internal measures were in place in the Conservative campaign to ensure that his officials did not engage in dirty tricks.

“I'll simply say that our campaign was run with the same standards, the same structure, the same processes that any modern progressive company would use to ensure that its employees, and its agents operate ethically and in compliance with the law,” Mr. Giorno said.

My guess is that the Conservatives have insider information about the Guelph robo-calling thing, maybe they even know "who dunnit," and they are confident that they, the CPC, are not even remotely involved ~ either than or they are whistling past a graveyard and just hoping that they are in the clear. If it's the latter then Stephen Harper and Guy Giorno are fools out looking for trouble, and that doesn't seem likely. 

 

[ModlrMike]

More evidence, not proof, that the Conservatives are 99.99% sure they are "clean" on the robo-call issue, in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/top-tory-organizer-denies-dirty-tricks-in-last-years-election/article2358153/

My guess is that the Conservatives have insider information about the Guelph robo-calling thing, maybe they even know "who dunnit," and they are confident that they, the CPC, are not even remotely involved ~ either than or they are whistling past a graveyard and just hoping that they are in the clear. If it's the latter then Stephen Harper and Guy Giorno are fools out looking for trouble, and that doesn't seem likely.

As I said previously, they had to know they would be put under the microscope both during and after the election. I find it interesting that Guelph seems to be the epicenter - a riding the Torries, no matter how dirty the attempt, couldn't hope to win (+6000 margin for Lib).

 

[Kalatzi]

From todays Globe and Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/the-case-against-a-conservative-conspiracy/article2358364/

There is a delightful phrase that I just cant resist quoting - "Jean-Pierre Kingsley, the former chief electoral officer, hopes that the robo-call affair will raise the bar for ethical behaviour in future campaigns. "

There is another phrease that I have to do some work to put into context. Please bear with me.

In and Out Scandal - Has a nice ring to it don't ya think?

Netted the CPC  approx $1.3 million than they wre allowed raise to by law.  They won the 2006 election. Five years later they plea bargained a fine of $52,000.

Ok, Ok now here comes the good part,  again from the Globe and Mail Article.

"“Canadians will be on the watch and political operatives will be very careful about what they do with our electoral system,” he told Tom Clark on Global TV. “And I think we will see them respecting the law with integrity.”

They should know by now that breaking the rules can land a party in a world of hurt, no matter who did it, or why.
"

I regret oreport that I just can't seem to speak that last sentence aloud without either choking and or bursting  into laughter.

 

[PuckChaser]

I'm still waiting for any sort of proof that's not circumstantial and conjecture that links the Tories to these calls. "They used the company before" really doesn't fly unless you're trying to grab headlines as a biased MSM.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

From todays Globe and Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/the-case-against-a-conservative-conspiracy/article2358364/

There is a delightful phrase that I just cant resist quoting - "Jean-Pierre Kingsley, the former chief electoral officer, hopes that the robo-call affair will raise the bar for ethical behaviour in future campaigns. "

There is another phrease that I have to do some work to put into context. Please bear with me.

In and Out Scandal - Has a nice ring to it don't ya think?

Netted the CPC  approx $1.3 million than they wre allowed raise to by law.  They won the 2006 election. Five years later they plea bargained a fine of $52,000.

Ok, Ok now here comes the good part,  again from the Globe and Mail Article.

"“Canadians will be on the watch and political operatives will be very careful about what they do with our electoral system,” he told Tom Clark on Global TV. “And I think we will see them respecting the law with integrity.”

They should know by now that breaking the rules can land a party in a world of hurt, no matter who did it, or why.
"

I regret oreport that I just can't seem to speak that last sentence aloud without either choking and or bursting  into laughter.

Once more, you take a few sound bytes or pull a couple of lines from a complete conversation, screw down your tinfoil and launch into another Harper is evil diatribe.

Your unproven allegations have moved from the mundane to manifest themselves akin to the excruciatingly painful mumblings of a streetcorner schizophrenic.

You're also not going to be warned anymore about your lack of proofreading for grammar and repeated failure to use the spell check. You're out of chances in that department.

 

[larry Strong]

From todays Globe and Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/john-ibbitson/the-case-against-a-conservative-conspiracy/article2358364/

There is a delightful phrase that I just cant resist quoting - "Jean-Pierre Kingsley, the former chief electoral officer, hopes that the robo-call affair will raise the bar for ethical behaviour in future campaigns. "

There is another phrease that I have to do some work to put into context. Please bear with me.

In and Out Scandal - Has a nice ring to it don't ya think?

Netted the CPC  approx $1.3 million than they wre allowed raise to by law.  They won the 2006 election. Five years later they plea bargained a fine of $52,000.

Ok, Ok now here comes the good part,  again from the Globe and Mail Article.

"“Canadians will be on the watch and political operatives will be very careful about what they do with our electoral system,” he told Tom Clark on Global TV. “And I think we will see them respecting the law with integrity.”

They should know by now that breaking the rules can land a party in a world of hurt, no matter who did it, or why.
"

I regret oreport that I just can't seem to speak that last sentence aloud without either choking and or bursting  into laughter.

Your bias is in full bloom. Right from the get go this thread has been a bash Harper and the Conservatives. Pretty well what I would expect from Redeye, y'all cousins?