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Re-enter the Battle Rifle?

Longest kill I know of with a 20" Mk11 Mod0 is 1430m by a DevGru SEAL.
  I will admit that I think luck had more to do.

LMT won the UK SharpShooter contract with their 16" gun - out to 800m using 155gr ball.
C3A1's with 168gr Norma match where not a great combo.  175gr is a better round for longer range performance, and if you chrono a 20" versus 24" or 26" 7.62mm you will see the velocity gain on the longer barrels is pretty small.

I've shot a lot of steel out to 1000m with the US Army and USMC with M110's - I fail to beleive that they or I have a greater skill level than anyone at the Sniper School in Gag.


My comment on the S&B - was if you have a SharpShooter using the DM gun, that teaching basic sniper at least for the gun side, it scope and longer distance shooting related (leaving out the stalk etc.)
Its easier to teach the art if the shooter is familiar with the gun.

Watching the SS candidates in Camp Pendelton with the M40A3's, the working of the bolt and mag has enough issues, that complicated their shooting.
Putting them behind the SASS, they where making the shots, as they had less to concentrate on relearning.

Just my point on weapon commonality, and letting the DM/SharpShooters act as a feeder stream for Basic Sniper.



I'll be up to Gagetown for the CISC, and I will have a bunch of toys you guys can play with, and see if this sort of weapon can fulfill the role.
  I am pretty sure that the SR-25 style (thought I think its best served by a REAL SR-25  ;)) gun can do the mission that is required.


 
Illegio,

There is nothing saying that the SASS and Sharpshooter might not find a common optic as well.  Keep in mind that the soldier will be using that optic mostly for close range and a long range shot when required, where as the guy with the SASS would be thinking longer first but also may have to shoot close upon chance contact.  Either way it makes sense to have an optic that can work anwhere 25-600m.

I'm not saying they will have the same optic, just that it's possible that they could.  One thing I can say is that the Sharpshooter rifle will not have a sniper-type scope.  First because he'll fire more rounds closer than farther, and second because he would look too different.

That being said, I don't think you'll see the SASS using the same optics as the medium and long-range rifles but I am not the expert on those so I will leave it to those who are.
 
Farva,

I finally got the chance to read those articles you posted (at work of course because it's work-related) and agree with a lot of what the guy says but with a different outcome.

What is undeniable is that a massive amount of ammunition is expended for every dead enemy.  We used to make fun of the Americans for their Vietnam numbers but recent trends show that Canadians or British are no better in contact and still fire thousands of rounds for every dead enemy.

We're still obviously on the same page by saying that of course improving marksmanship is the best thing (must be done with realistic training, not rangisms).

He contradicts himself a bit by saying weapon selection doesn't matter and then he says rifles are far better than MGs, which would lead to better rifles being better still, but that's a tangent and not the point I go after.

The difference is that he throws up the white flag for small arms at that point because they are ineffective, where I see it as quite the opposite, even if it takes thousands of rounds for every dead soldier, for two main reasons:

1.  Cost.  A couple thousand brass-producing rounds are still in line with 1% of the cost of a missile or bomb to have the same effect (and probably 1/10 the cost of artillery rounds [estimate]).

2.  Experience.  Having soldiers doing the shooting and killing in true combat makes them better at it and thus more effective.  While it make take 10,000 rounds for a green platoon to kill someone, that platoon will be more experienced next time and possibly only take 5,000, then 2,000, then 1,000, then 500, etc.  The author is only basing it off of soldiers who have every been trained on a range, but there is no better combat-ready soldier than one who has done it for months.  To quote Grossman, he'll probably be in condition yellow-red vice red-black.

Good reads overall though and like I said agree with most of it, just not the conclusion.
 
Does anyone in the CF still teach  a program called "Quick Shoot" or maybe it was called Quick Kill?

It was taught to reservists at Petawawa summer concentrations waaay back and used Daisy pump BB guns.

It was snap shooting, both eyes open.  Targets were simple things  - tops of smoke grenade cans and parachute flair tubes.

After a few hours of various drills and target types, it was amazing how well you could do with an SMG or an FN at all sorts of ranges.

Cheap, effective & fun !
 
Haletown,

There are all sorts of close-range shoots being done now between PWT3 and PWT4 that use paper plate size targets.

The official term is called "snap shooting".

In my assessment it is good to do it but not focus on only close range, lest you find it impossible to hit anything from 400m when you need to.
 
Petamocto,

I agree with you that the S&B is not the proper optic for a sharpshooter rifle, both for the reason you stated (it makes him look different) and because the scope itself is poorly lent to rapidly engaging fleeting targets at different ranges. I do believe, however, that if the SASS does make it into the system, the S&B will be the optic of choice, especially if the SASS becomes the "training" rifle as well as an operational rifle, which is one idea I've heard being floated. Using the S&B simplifies cross-training across the entire family of rifles and consolidates the supply chain. Half of the "conversion course" we run to get new basic snipers up to speed on the .338 and the .50 consists of learning the S&B and calculating corrections based off ballistic data charts, so if we can teach that on the basic course, it will smooth the transition to the bigger rifles and negate the need to learn two different optics.

That said, do I believe that the SASS is an ideal training rifle? No... but unless DLR is willing to pony up for the SASS and the Coyote (and you've already mentioned that the OIC of the Cell wants to get rid of the training rifle), it makes sense to use the same rifle in all three roles (sharpshooter, SASS, and training rifle,) especially since the sharpshooters will naturally be in line for sniper training when it comes up in their unit.

As far as the rifle itself... I think it will have to be effective out to 800m (or 600m effective, 800m "harassing" to be more precise) if for no other reason than if the SASS is to replace the C3A1, it ought to fill the same range band. 600m and 800m are, coincidentally enough, the effective ranges for the C9 and C6 respectively, so if the sharpshooter rifle is to provide a precision-fire alternative or support for the section/platoon MGs, it should have a similar range capability.
 
Haletown said:
Does anyone in the CF still teach  a program called "Quick Shoot" or maybe it was called Quick Kill?

It was taught to reservists at Petawawa summer concentrations waaay back and used Daisy pump BB guns.

It was snap shooting, both eyes open.  Targets were simple things  - tops of smoke grenade cans and parachute flair tubes.

After a few hours of various drills and target types, it was amazing how well you could do with an SMG or an FN at all sorts of ranges.

Cheap, effective & fun !

It was called Quick Kill. The last I saw it being done was the late 60's early 70's.
 
Quick Kill became IIRC part of Shoot to Kill, which then was pussified to become Shoot to Live Program that was the basis of the PWT system that exists and is evolving today.


Petawmocto is 100% on the seasoning of troops, however it also need to be tempered with realistic training, as training scar, and operational scars can become deeply ingrained and soldiers will still consume vast amounts of ammunition if their leadership is not aware and not identifiying corrections to drills etc.

A lot of Combat Camera foottage shows Soldiers (and leaders) firing a lot of ammo -> that way, not aiming at specific targets.

 
Infidel-6 said:
Quick Kill became IIRC part of Shoot to Kill, which then was pussified to become Shoot to Live Program that was the basis of the PWT system that exists and is evolving today.

Shoot to Live has been replaced by CFOSP (the "evolving" part), but generally the PWTs are the same (for now).
 
For those not plugged into the CF anymore what is CFOSP?
  I got Canadian Forces  ;D - and I am assuming that the SP is Shooting Program, but O ? Operational? or Occupational or?

Thanks
 
Operational,
The rest you figured out.
CFOSP - Canadian Forces Operational Shooting Program.
 
Infanteer said:
That being said, bullpups sure are nice to carry.

I hate 'em. Carried both the SLR and the SA80 alot in NI. The SLR was always evenly balanced, even with a SUIT sight on top.

Although the SA80 was shorter and 'handier', with the SUSAT sight dragging the weapon 'outboard' all the time, you'd have a right forearm like Popeye by the end of a long patrol. It was like carrying a long, top heavy pistol. And don't even think about wearing the spider web-like three point sling to counteract the effect as it was, and is, a ridiculous concept for any soldier who had to conduct basic patrolling missions that required you to lurk around with your weapon in various inconvenient positions. The C7, and variants, is vastly superior to the SA80 bullpup IMHO.

Now, if you're talking about the Steyr, there's a good bullpup weapon that fires and handles very nicely.




 
- Regarding 'rounds expended per enemy shot by same calbre' or whatever the proper phrase is, there may other forces at work here.  Last year, when I was deployed in a position where similar discussions occurred, a few of us thought that 'spikes' in ammo usage did not correlate with contact reports, and that perhaps sub-units were taking advantage of time, ammunition and template to get in some good training iterations while on 'operations'.  A notable spike in 66mm usage at one point comes to mind.  After the usual black humoured remarks about a 'continuous live fire exercise with IEDs' , we felt that a shortage of ammo, template and time (time being measured from when your element reaches it's final deployable strength, NOT when the TF is first stood up) in Canada may have contibuted to the situation.

- Great thread, thanks to you all.  Regards,

Tom
 
Infidel-6 said:
FYI

1) We also make the M110 SASS
2) Armalite cannot touch us in a performance based specification
3) Hk417 - Hk just killed the program, I was somewhere, doing something with someone, and Hk called to tell the user group.

We are not hyping the SR-25 EMC for general issue (outside certain communities) but it does merit a look for a Section/Squad DM.  The M110 SASS type guns are generally wasted at Squad/Pl level, plus it still looks like a Sniper Rifle (unless you have an all C7A2 force)

Kevin,

What are you refering to by "killed the program".

HK Oberndorf has no intention of stopping the HK417 manufacture or development.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
 
Big Red said:
Good to have you on here Tuukka! Coming back over anytime soon?

Hey, I should be at SHOT 2011...

This reminds me, need to get some sights from Aimpoint  :)..our Para Minimi is still lacking one..

 
Sigh, another call to get new calibre weapon.

The worst offense in this article is the author does not differentiate between the 7.62X39 short of the AK-47 series of weapons and the 7.62X51 NATO round for battle rifles and GPMGs. There is a great deal of difference in recoil, muzzle energy and  stopping power between these rounds (and marksmanship is very important indeed, having come home from the range sporting bruised cheeks when forgetting the proper hold with an FN-C1 Rifle).

I have no doubt that the 6.8 calibre has some advantage over the 5.56 round in some applications, but from a logistics and financial veiwpoint, 5.56 is "good enough" for the current generation of assault rifles and LMG's, and there is probably room for more improvement in the existing rounds rather than going for an entirely new calibre and weapons system. That is the "new round" we should be concentrating upon.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/fox-news-gets-it-wrong-m4-rifle-works-fine-the-problem-is-the-bullet/?singlepage=true

Fox News Gets It Wrong: M4 Rifle Works Fine; the Problem Is the Bullet

An article on issues with the weapons our soldiers carry in Afghanistan misses the mark, but the M4 does need a more accurate round right away.
June 2, 2010
- by Bob Owens
Share |

The death of the M4 has been greatly exaggerated.

A bizarre Fox News article appeared last Wednesday: “M4 vs. AK-47: Is U.S. Army Outgunned in Afghanistan?“:

    Despite the ages-old rifles in Taliban hands, reports suggest our soldiers may be outgunned in Afghanistan’s hills. To counter, the Army plans a slew of upgrades to curtain weapons — and several entirely new guns.

    Taliban fighters in Afghanistan are attacking U.S. Army soldiers with AK-47s, while the army relies upon the M4 assault rifle. The AK-47 uses a larger bullet, which leads to more kickback upon firing. Some reports indicate that the U.S. Army is looking to upgrade the weapons being used in Afghanistan to larger caliber guns.

    An AP report published over the weekend in Army Times argued that the M4 rifle’s light bullets lack sufficient velocity and killing power in long-range firefights. The report states that the U.S. is considering a switch to weapons that fire a larger round, one largely discarded in the 1960s.

    …

    The 7.62mm round in the AK-47 is heavier and larger than the 5.56mm caliber bullet in the M4, and can therefore fly further on average. But Battaglini dismisses reports that the Army is considering rearming soldiers in Afghanistan. “On the battlefield, there are no reported operational issues with the M4. It’s the weapon of choice in Iraq, and still the desired weapon in Afghanistan,” he told FoxNews.com.

Anyone reading the article would come to the conclusion that rusty AK-47s give the poorly trained Taliban an advantage over U.S. troops armed with M4 carbines, M16 rifles, and M249 machine guns firing 5.56 NATO rounds. It is a supposition based upon ignorance of the battlefield, the training, and the weapons and cartridges themselves. Other than that, the article is fine.

Much of the combat taking place in mountainous Afghanistan occurs at much longer ranges than U.S. soldiers have encountered in recent wars, and engagements at ranges in excess of 500 meters are not uncommon. Obviously, at these extended ranges the marksmanship of the combatants is of vital importance to their effectiveness. Poorly trained combatants will not hit their targets with frequency, and may not even pose enough of a threat to keep their opposition pinned down. In this type of combat, a weapon needs to be reliable and accurate, and fire a cartridge that retains energy, is relatively flat-shooting, and is resistant to wind drift.

Author Jeremy A. Kaplan does get some details of his story correct.

The AK-47 fires a 7.62 bullet that is larger and heavier than that of the 5.56 round in most of the Army’s M4s, and the weapon does have considerably more recoil. The M4’s 5.56 round does lack killing power at long range, due to a combination of the M4’s shortened barrel generating lower velocities and the 5.56 round being heavily dependent upon velocity to function effectively.

Despite these truths, the M4 is not inherently inferior to the AK-47. It is simply a product of different methodologies in making weapons and in training soldiers.

The AK-47 was designed to be manufactured easily using relatively crude technologies (by today’s standards), and fielded by conscript soldiers with only rudimentary training and firing ammunition of dubious manufacture and consistency. As a result, the AK-series is very reliable when it comes to firing. But it simply isn’t designed to hit anything beyond several hundred meters with any degree of regularity, being designed as a shorter-range weapon to be used by masses of troops.

The philosophy behind the M4 was to create a more nimble, close-quarters variant of the M16 rifle that was the AK’s Vietnam-era contemporary. It is designed to be very accurate and incorporates rail systems that enable soldiers to mount optics, lights, and lasers to increase their speed and accuracy.

When you compare the weapons and training, the U.S. Army has a huge advantage over the Taliban at long-distance engagements in placing rounds on target.

The problem our soldiers are encountering isn’t as much the aging M4 (which is getting long in the tooth) as it is the anemic caliber it has traditionally been chambered in. The 5.56 uses a .22-caliber bullet, and that severely limits the potential terminal ballistics of the weapon. There are dozens if not hundreds of stories of soldiers who served in Iraq who had fired 4-5 shots into insurgents at close range with little immediate effect. In Afghanistan, where the ranges are often considerably extended, the effectiveness of the cartridge degrades even further.

Kaplan’s answer to the problem seems to be resurrecting the even older (but more powerful and longer ranged) M14, or entirely scrapping the existing M4 system in favor of an entirely new rifle. I don’t argue in the least that the M4’s role could better be served by more modern designs, but the simple fact of the matter is that it serves well enough and new weapons in the same 5.56 NATO caliber would still run into the same inherent limitations of the cartridge.

What our soldiers need is a bigger, better bullet, and guess what? One exists.

The 6.8 SPC (Special Purpose Cartridge) was designed explicitly to overcome the shortcomings of the 5.56 cartridge. Just as importantly, it was specifically designed to work with the Army’s existing M4 rifles. It outclasses the AK-47s cartridge in every measurable way.

The story that Fox News missed is a simple one: why hasn’t the Army begun upgrading it’s 5.56 M4 rifles to the more powerful 6.8 SPC cartridge? It offers superior performance at every range, with less recoil and weight than the heavier and older M14. No doubt there will be logistical hurdles to overcome in making such a transition during a time of war, and such transitions aren’t inexpensive, but they require almost no retaining and provide our soldiers with a distinct edge over their enemies.

Our media should be asking generals to explain why our soldiers are still using weapons in a caliber that was known to be suboptimal in many situations nearly half a century ago.

Our soldiers should have the best tools to complete their mission.

Why don’t they have them?

Bob Owens blogs at Confederate Yankee.
 
Thuc,

The odds of Canada doing something that is outside of what the US does is almost nil.

Further, bullet technology is reaching its pinnacle for development and advancement and it's getting to the point where we must consider the current generation of small arms relatively mastered.

It makes more sense to strive toward the next generation of soldier than in does to worry about 5, 6, or 7mm.
 
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