PERs : All issues questions...2003-2019

[armyvern]

Absolutely I remember them being done.  I am simply of the opinion that the 5B is the "lazy" way to take corrective action.  And I am the opinion that 5Bs are meant for professional development and to point out areas of one profession that should be improved on in order to succeed and grow. 

Behavior, Conduct and Discipline failures, while professional failings as well, should be addressed through the IC, RW, C&P process as I this is what it is designed for and is under utilized.  Too many shit pumps have just been passed along without the proper admin action being taken which has led to a continued waste of rations on people who should be dealt with. 

Sometime we get to share a table at the Sgts&WOs again I will tell you of the last little misguided sailor we had

The LS who came in  as an OS and whom didn't have QL4s.  Who had supervisors who expected her to just osmose into a competent Cpl overnight despite her having come in with SFA in the way of TI, Army experience or Supply experience.  She certainly had issues to correct, but in her case she also had some supervisors who couldn't mentor a stone (who received some of their own aforementioned paperwork due to such basic leadership failure ...).

Now you know why that particular unit screens only Cpls and above for support positions. And, that was in effect before her posting in.  Imagine my shock to come back from tour to find the other Snr Tech (from outside the unit) had arranged to have her posted in to us to fill an immediate gap" while I was away. Not amused.

Oh, and she was posted, not to pass her off, but because she was (emphasis was) part of a Married Service Couple careers was trying to keep together.  And, to be certain, there was traffic between her gaining unit and myself prior to her posting (and after too!). 

 

[BinRat55]

Absolutely I remember them being done.  I am simply of the opinion that the 5B is the "lazy" way to take corrective action.  And I am the opinion that 5Bs are meant for professional development and to point out areas of one profession that should be improved on in order to succeed and grow. 

Behavior, Conduct and Discipline failures, while professional failings as well, should be addressed through the IC, RW, C&P process as I this is what it is designed for and is under utilized.  Too many crap pumps have just been passed along without the proper admin action being taken which has led to a continued waste of rations on people who should be dealt with. 

Sometime we get to share a table at the Sgts&WOs again I will tell you of the last little misguided sailor we had

This is where it becomes a matter of common sense. I disagree with your assessment of "the lazy way". I have soldier A who needs a little reinforcement but I don't want something following them around like an IC, nor do I think my CoC need be a big part of it. As a capable Sr NCO I can adequately handle it on my own (of course notifying my 1 up). I have soldier B, who was much like soldier A a few months ago but my 5B approach was not successful. An IC maybe? Sure why not?

It's called leadership. Now, don't get me wrong - there are those who go right to IC, don't pass GO and don't collect 200 bucks. But what if that soldier needed something different? This is called leadership style.

Just my opinion.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The LS who came in  as an OS and whom didn't have QL4s.  Who had supervisors who expected her to just osmose into a competent Cpl overnight despite her having come in with SFA in the way of TI, Army experience or Supply experience.  She certainly had issues to correct, but in her case she also had some supervisors who couldn't mentor a stone (who received some of their own aforementioned paperwork due to such basic leadership failure ...).

You did have leaders who tried to address the issue but they were shunted aside and made out to be meanies.  But that is not who I was alluding too.

Now you know why that particular unit screens only Cpls and above for support positions. And, that was in effect before her posting in.  Imagine my shock to come back from tour to find the other Snr Tech (from outside the unit) had arranged to have her posted in to us to fill an immediate gap" while I was away. Not amused.

Oh, and she was posted, not to pass her off, but because she was (emphasis was) part of a Married Service Couple careers was trying to keep together.  And, to be certain, there was traffic between her gaining unit and myself prior to her posting (and after too!). 

I think the DAGing was great and I wish we would do that in Halifax so we would stop getting people who want to be in Halifax but suddnly develope "NATO knee" when their posting to a HMC Ship arrives.  Why does sailing scare people so much ?

 

[Halifax Tar]

This is where it becomes a matter of common sense. I disagree with your assessment of "the lazy way". I have soldier A who needs a little reinforcement but I don't want something following them around like an IC, nor do I think my CoC need be a big part of it. As a capable Sr NCO I can adequately handle it on my own (of course notifying my 1 up). I have soldier B, who was much like soldier A a few months ago but my 5B approach was not successful. An IC maybe? Sure why not?

It's called leadership. Now, don't get me wrong - there are those who go right to IC, don't pass GO and don't collect 200 bucks. But what if that soldier needed something different? This is called leadership style.

Just my opinion.

No fight with me on this.  You are correct it all comes down to leadership style.  If I cant fix a minor problem with a conversation and some corrrective instruction my next move move is IC.  Again just my "style" as you say.  I have found keeping my CoC in the loop has worked in my favor when things start to spin out of control. Just my style.

Remember that an added beifit of an IC is a tracking of behavior so future leaders can see if this has track record or if this is a one off occurance.

 

[BinRat55]

No fight with me on this.  You are correct it all comes down to leadership style.  If I cant fix a minor problem with a conversation and some corrrective instruction my next move move is IC.  Again just my "style" as you say.  I have found keeping my CoC in the loop has worked in my favor when things start to spin out of control. Just my style.

Remember that an added beifit of an IC is a tracking of behavior so future leaders can see if this has track record or if this is a one off occurance.

Gotcha. But you did kinda start this when you said

I argue against this method.  The 5B is not meant for corrective action.  That is what the IC is for.  The 5B is meant for areas of a members profression that needs to be improved.

My point here IS exactly as you stated above "... a conversation and some corrrective instruction..." and a 5B are one in the same.

 

[armyvern]

You did have leaders who tried to address the issue but they were shunted aside and made out to be meanies.  But that is not who I was alluding too.

I'll call BS on that statement right here and now.  The only one who thought any of them a meanie was perhaps the LS herself. 

Those leaders who think they may have been shunted aside, are probably the same ones who walked into my office wanting her charged etc for not being able to do tasks like the Cpls were (undirected and unsupervised) when she was NOT one of those Cpls. She was a no-hooked OS.  Mentor her for fuck sakes. Lead her.  That was their job and, as I already stated, some of them didn't do a very good job of it.  'Tis sad really.  No one learns by osmosis ... but they certainly expected it of that troop.  Thank heavens that
those leaders weren't led by same type as themselves when they were brand new into the CAF.

 

[BinRat55]

Can you imagine if you were given an IC every time you made a mistake Vern? What would you be doing today?

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Can you imagine if you were given an IC every time you made a mistake Vern? What would you be doing today?

CFB Shilo... that's where you'd be! (or Wainwright perhaps)

 

[Halifax Tar]

Can you imagine if you were given an IC every time you made a mistake Vern? What would you be doing today?

I think we may need to separate this into another topic, no ?

See I think this is our difference.  I define a mistake as something very minor and if not repeated not necessary to be recorded at all.  As simple verbal and non formal conversation with the instruction on how to fix the mistake is all that is necessary.  I see a mistake, in our terminology as a supply mistake, like not putting manifests on the sea containers or something minor that easily correctable like that.  And if it was repetitious behavior I would call that insubordination.

But when you get into behavior and conduct areas that is not 5B material in my opinion. 

The 5B seems to be an avenue that the Navy doesn't use.  As when I have talked about it as a corrective measure they rest of my messmates find it novel.  And I have yet to see one handed out since returning in June of last year.

 

[BinRat55]

I think we may need to separate this into another topic, no ?

See I think this is our difference.  I define a mistake as something very minor and if not repeated not necessary to be recorded at all.  As simple verbal and non formal conversation with the instruction on how to fix the mistake is all that is necessary.  I see a mistake, in our terminology as a supply mistake, like not putting manifests on the sea containers or something minor that easily correctable like that.  And if it was repetitious behavior I would call that insubordination.

But when you get into behavior and conduct areas that is not 5B material in my opinion.

So my progression goes something like this - the first one's on me (depending on the infraction of course) we will have a discussion. The second one will be noted on a PDR part 5B (with a follow up in a timely manner noted in a 5C) The third one then becomes official.

Now again I have to stress that in some instances I wholeheartedly agree with you on an IC. Soldier misses a dental I get a call. Second appt missed? 5B. Third? Systemic behaviour. Still, rather minor. Soldier explains the exact way to get somewhere in no uncertain terms to the Capt or SSM - IC for sure - maybe even charged! Severity dictates.

This is just how I do business and thus far I think I have been fairly successful. I have written many 5Bs - some have gone on to become excellent Sr NCOs. Some have gone to Club Ed.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So my progression goes something like this - the first one's on me (depending on the infraction of course) we will have a discussion. The second one will be noted on a PDR part 5B (with a follow up in a timely manner noted in a 5C) The third one then becomes official.

Now again I have to stress that in some instances I wholeheartedly agree with you on an IC. Soldier misses a dental I get a call. Second appt missed? 5B. Third? Systemic behaviour. Still, rather minor. Soldier explains the exact way to get somewhere in no uncertain terms to the Capt or SSM - IC for sure - maybe even charged! Severity dictates.

This is just how I do business and thus far I think I have been fairly successful. I have written many 5Bs - some have gone on to become excellent Sr NCOs. Some have gone to Club Ed.

If it works, use it!  Right ?   Its just slightly different paths to the same end.  I think we have pretty much beaten this to death

 

[BinRat55]

If it works, use it!  Right ?   Its just slightly different paths to the same end.  I think we have pretty much beaten this to death

:deadhorse:

Agreed to disagree!

 

[Lumber]

I think we need to differentiate between the two seperate deficienes: conduct and performance.

Remedial measures for a conduct deficiencies should only be used if a member demonstrates an inability to perform the assigned tasks.

If the member is simply performing the given task poorly, then that is when a 5B is used. Use of the PDR part 5 is especially important when it comes to LS/Cpl and above, as it provides justification for PERs down the road. People have redressed their PERs because at no time during the year did their supervisors let them know that they they felt the member was performing poorly, and therefore did not have an opportunity to corret their definciencies. You can hand out as many PDRs during the year as you want; just make sure they are accurate.

In terms of performance deficiencies, I echo what others have said here and it ties in generally with the way I view conduct deficiencies. Conduct that is unacceptable must go on an IC (but perhaps an offline chat would be the best initial action). However, conduct that is undesirable but not necessarily unacceptable, can and should be dealt with on a 5B, as that is an official assessment of the member's conduct.

"You're kind of an a**hole when you are delegating tasks to subordinates. Be firm and clear; theres no need to be angry." - PDR Part 5B

"In plain sight and ear shot of his peers, you told OS Bloggins that if he was f**king useless and that if he didn't un-f**k himself you have him doing cleaning stations all f**king day, every day."  -Record Warning, Conduct Deficiency

 

[BinRat55]

I think we need to differentiate between the two seperate deficienes: conduct and performance.

Remedial measures for a conduct deficiencies should only be used if a member demonstrates an inability to perform the assigned tasks.

If the member is simply performing the given task poorly, then that is when a 5B is used. Use of the PDR part 5 is especially important when it comes to LS/Cpl and above, as it provides justification for PERs down the road. People have redressed their PERs because at no time during the year did their supervisors let them know that they they felt the member was performing poorly, and therefore did not have an opportunity to corret their definciencies. You can hand out as many PDRs during the year as you want; just make sure they are accurate.

In terms of performance deficiencies, I echo what others have said here and it ties in generally with the way I view conduct deficiencies. Conduct that is unacceptable must go on an IC (but perhaps an offline chat would be the best initial action). However, conduct that is undesirable but not necessarily unacceptable, can and should be dealt with on a 5B, as that is an official assessment of the member's conduct.

"You're kind of an a**hole when you are delegating tasks to subordinates. Be firm and clear; theres no need to be angry." - PDR Part 5B

"In plain sight and ear shot of his peers, you told OS Bloggins that if he was f**king useless and that if he didn't un-f**k himself you have him doing cleaning stations all f**king day, every day."  -Record Warning, Conduct Deficiency

That make more sense to me. After I read your post I went through (in my head of course) as many of the 5Bs I could recall and the theme IS as you put it - mainly performance related. I very rarely had conduct issues (luck or leadership either one works!) but I can't recall ever putting a conduct issue on a PDR in ANY form.

See? I can still get stuff!!

And I think that's kind of what you were saying Halifax.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That make more sense to me. After I read your post I went through (in my head of course) as many of the 5Bs I could recall and the theme IS as you put it - mainly performance related. I very rarely had conduct issues (luck or leadership either one works!) but I can't recall ever putting a conduct issue on a PDR in ANY form.

See? I can still get stuff!!

And I think that's kind of what you were saying Halifax.

Yup

 

[GreenMarine]

I had my question more or less answered today, when I got a call from my "boss on paper" from my home unit saying he is investigating and if need be will write my PER after I submit a brag sheet to cover the year.

And looking at the topic about IC vs 5B (pdr)... in the past writing for one or no hooks, I was told to include only 3 Strength's, 3 weaknesses and 3 areas for development. In other cases I've experience or heard that everyone has strength's, weak', and AoDs... so include at least one in each, yet seen where someone had the Strength's filled, the Weakness empty and one AoDs on nonwork related item.

I have a feeling the CAF Leadership may of flowed away the original idea and started do thing own thing.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

That's what's called a shit sandwich. Good-bad-good. Can't hurt anyone's feelings.

 

[BinRat55]

I had my question more or less answered today, when I got a call from my "boss on paper" from my home unit saying he is investigating and if need be will write my PER after I submit a brag sheet to cover the year.

And looking at the topic about IC vs 5B (pdr)... in the past writing for one or no hooks, I was told to include only 3 Strength's, 3 weaknesses and 3 areas for development. In other cases I've experience or heard that everyone has strength's, weak', and AoDs... so include at least one in each, yet seen where someone had the Strength's filled, the Weakness empty and one AoDs on nonwork related item.

I have a feeling the CAF Leadership may of flowed away the original idea and started do thing own thing.

See that's just it - those of us who practice the use of 5Bs are done just in that manner - a 5B (with of course a 5C to assist the members shortcoming solution) without a 5A. What you are referring to (3, 3 and 3) doesn't make sense to me and here's why - there is no area on the PDR for "weaknesses". A normal PDR session is a 5A (Strengths) 5B (Areas for Development) and 5C (Action Plan).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Rare would it be where a Snr NCO can lay charges.  They may recommend them.

Same goes for RMs.  Usually, the ability to recommend is there, but the CO would normally be the signature (or the officers he/she delegates this down to;  Adjt, Coy Commanders, what have you0.

Just some perspective on the abilities, and limitations, of Snr NCOs.  ;D

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Where I am only the RSM can charge someone (mind you I'm sure the CO could as well).