Pay FY 07/08

[Sub_Guy]

Perhaps you are considering it a pay cut because you have just become used to receiving it as an over-and-above-entitlement benefit??

Kind of like arguing that troops should receive foreign duty allowances indefinitely -- just because they have become used to receiving them (and spending them!!) and consider it part of their "pay." Well, it's only part of your "pay" while the need (thus entitlement) exists.

Sure PLD shouldn't be considered pay, but it was/is given to soldiers who live in high cost of living areas (big problem with the formula if you get it in Halifax but not Edmonton)

Isn't it used to off set the higher cost of living compared to a certain base?  So if I am given this extra money to help me live in a more expensive environment then how can I not consider that part of my income and rely on it?  Especially in those areas that get close to $1000 a month PLD?  It is wrong to give someone that money and at the same time say don't rely on this and you could lose it at any time, so don't make any big purchases (house) with the extra money.  Its too easy for someone to sit in their city where the average house price is 239,000 and criticize the fella who lives in a market where the average house price is 539,000, because he used the PLD in his budgeting (I know more goes into the current formula than the price of housing, but housing prices are a decent indication of how expensive it is to live in a certain area).

(It doesn't affect me at all, either way I'm good, but I do know some people are going to get caught in a financial mess if they lose the PLD)

What I don't understand in that message is how there are two different dates for reduction in PLD 01 Apr 08 and 01 Apr 09, seems like the officers get a break.


That big payday a few years ago worked wonders for those who get spec pay those who don't get spec pay got what I like to consider "the shaft".

 

[Infantry]

Sure PLD shouldn't be considered pay, but it was/is given to soldiers who live in high cost of living areas (big problem with the formula if you get it in Halifax but not Edmonton)

Isn't it used to off set the higher cost of living compared to a certain base?   So if I am given this extra money to help me live in a more expensive environment then how can I not consider that part of my income and rely on it?  Especially in those areas that get close to $1000 a month PLD?  It is wrong to give someone that money and at the same time say don't rely on this and you could lose it at any time, so don't make any big purchases (house) with the extra money.  Its too easy for someone to sit in their city where the average house price is 239,000 and criticize the fella who lives in a market where the average house price is 539,000, because he used the PLD in his budgeting (I know more goes into the current formula than the price of housing, but housing prices are a decent indication of how expensive it is to live in a certain area).

(It doesn't affect me at all, either way I'm good, but I do know some people are going to get caught in a financial mess if they lose the PLD)

What I don't understand in that message is how there are two different dates for reduction in PLD 01 Apr 08 and 01 Apr 09, seems like the officers get a break.


That big payday a few years ago worked wonders for those who get spec pay those who don't get spec pay got what I like to consider "the shaft".

For Edmonton not getting PLD and Halifax getting one.

Take into consideration the last time PLD was updated was in the beginning of 2006, before the huge price jump in Housing in Alberta.  Before the jump, housing in Edmonton was lower than Halifax.  Also, we pay 14% tax in stores while you only pay 6%, among other things.  Also, on a 60 000$ salary, you bring home about 4000$ more a year in Alberta than in Nova Scotia because of the income tax difference.

 

[niceasdrhuxtable]

What I don't understand in that message is how there are two different dates for reduction in PLD 01 Apr 08 and 01 Apr 09, seems like the officers get a break.

I think you read that backwards. Text is as follows (emphasis mine):

IN CERTAIN AREAS, IN PARTICULAR EDMONTON, COLD LAKE AND CALGARY, PLD RATES WILL INCREASE RETROACTIVE TO 1 JULY 2007. IN THOSE LOCATIONS WHERE PLD WILL BE REDUCED, THE REDUCTIONS WILL BE IMPLEMENTED BY RANK AT THE RATE OF ONE THIRD EACH YEAR COMMENCING 1 APR 2008 FOR NCM IN THE RANK OF WO AND ABOVE AS WELL AS FOR OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF LT(N)/CAPT AND ABOVE. EFFECTIVE 1 APR 2009, THIS PHASED PLD REDUCTION WILL ALSO BE IMPLEMENTED FOR SERGEANTS AND BELOW AS WELL AS FOR OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF SLT/LT AND BELOW. FOR CAPT(N)/COL AND ABOVE LIVING IN THE NCR, THE NEW PLD RATE FOR THAT LOCATION WILL BE IMPLEMENTED IN FULL AS OF 1 APR 2008.

 

[PO2FinClk]

Did that monthly FOA thing ever get confirmed?

Still in the works and will be called FEA (Field Environment Allowance), more is mentioned in another thread..

 

[Sub_Guy]

I think you read that backwards. Text is as follows (emphasis mine):

Roger Retard.....

Thanks!

 

[FSTO]

No your pay went up 2% today.

Halifax ... I dunno -- I don't see much difference in prices for homes, good or services between my current location and there -- yet we receive no PLD here.

PLD is NOT pay. If you're losing PLD due to the new way of business, that's still not a paycut. After all ... you were lucky to be getting it in the first place ... your "average Canadian" who is required to move to Alberta due to their employment surely isn't receiving that benefit. And sorry, but the cost of living in Halifax doesn't compare with that in the NCR -- so if they're zero ... so should you be.

Perhaps you are considering it a pay cut because you have just become used to receiving it as an over-and-above-entitlement benefit??

Kind of like arguing that troops should receive foreign duty allowances indefinitely -- just because they have become used to receiving them (and spending them!!) and consider it part of their "pay." Well, it's only part of your "pay" while the need (thus entitlement) exists.

Well I am a bad sailor because I have fallen into the same trap as most (I would assume) people have by budgeting the PLD into their cost of living. Thankfully my wife is expecting a raise soon so maybe this won't hurt as much. But the grape-vine out here in Esquimalt (from MARPAC himself) is that PLD here is going to go up.

anyway this was a no-win situation for the military because (assuming again) that this whole PLD reduction and PMQ increase SNAFU was originated by those heartless bastards at Treasury Board.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Using the latest inflation rate of 2.4% from Statistics Canada (http://www.statcan.ca/english/Subjects/Cpi/cpi-en.htm), a 2% cost of living adjustment actually results in a 0.39% pay decrease in real terms, plus foregone interest on the money that has been withheld.

Actually it is worse than that: it would have to be retroactive with interest in order to break even: effectively, we are getting back some of our pay decrease due to inflation.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the PLD "pot" gets/has been increased, or is this just a redistribution of a fixed budget?  And for the record, CCRA considers PLD as Income and taxes it accordingly: one has to compare cost of living against PLD after taxes, in order to make a fair comparison.

 

[Scoobs]

1. The 2% "raise" is okay, but not sufficient if it did not keep up with inflation.  Coupling this with a decrease in PLD or elimination of it after up to 3 years results in an overall negative affect on most CF mbrs and a cost savings for DND (read bureaucrats).  What bothers me most, which no one has yet pointed out, is why the NCR is being used as the baseline.  Last time I heard, PLD was supposed to help offset the difference between the "CF National Cost of Living" and what the costs are at specific locations, not the difference between what the cost of living in Ottawa is compared to specific locations.  Our rate of pay, which does not include PLD, is not based on what a person in Ottawa makes, so where does this baseline based on the Ottawa region come from?  I lived in the Ottawa area/Quebec for 12 years and I can fairly say that over that time I saw costs dramatically rise in Ottawa.  Therefore, basing the baseline on Ottawa gives the penny pinchers a higher baseline to compare other locations to.  In turn, this results in many less locations being above or equal to the baseline and thus equals a cost savings to DND.
2. Why does it take 8 months to come up with a measly 2% raise?  To tell us back in June that the various Public Service contracts were being studied is BS.  If this was the case, we would have had at least a 2.5% to 3.5% raise.  Bureaucratic foot dragging.
3. Why does it take 4 months to implement a pay "raise"?  If this has been apparently studied since June, would you not figure that this would have been one of the items that was looked at?  Lack of foresight.
4. If you are going to wait 8 months to announce to us that we are getting only 2%, our PLD (for most of us) is going to go down, and some of us will be hit hard with PMQ (not me) rent increases come 2009, why in the world would you not have the PLD rates ready at the same time?  I checked for the new rates and could not find them today.  Poor management of the file.

In addition, to tell me that this will be beneficial over my career is not totally true as no one, even the CDS, can guarantee to me that the rules won't change in the next decade prior to my retirement.  The pension rules could change, PLD could be wiped out entirely for everyone, etc.  The statement of saying we need to look at the benefits over our career is simply a PR exercise, nothing more, nothing less.

This whole situation was poorly handled by DND and higher HQ.  In my opinion, they all should receive a failing grade.  The CANFORGEN put out today is nothing but an exercise in damage control.  How this can be fed down our throats as something good only insults my intelligence.  Give it to me straight and don't try to put a pile of **** on my plate and tell me to eat it!

 

[Northernguardian]

Most people posting here (except for my aircrew buddy CdnAviator and Scoobs ) seem to be taking the approach that its better than nothing. Well folks, yes, it is better than nothing, but its also a kick in the groin. I know that everyone at work is pissed off with it, and  I'm very disappointed as well. Not sure if the posters in these forums are afraid to speak their mind. I thought the whole point of these forums was to have a place where people can speak freely about military issues (within reason).

I thought the CANFORGEN sounded like an apology. No wonder why. Average wage increases in Canada are running between 3-5%. Inflation varies, but the true rate (when you factor in energy costs, etc) is well above the CPI, 2.5% to 4% or more depending on where you live. So this adjustment doesn't even cover inflation. Your spending power is decreasing. On top of that, our CPP contributions are continually going up. The country is running a record surplus, we are at war, we have a retention problem, and we aren't even getting enough to cover inflation.

Scoobs was bang on. You have to wonder what the pay gods were doing for the past 8 months....fighting for a good deal...and this is all they came up with. Even though they know what they've giving us now, we have to wait until March 08 for the money.  So much for our 21st century pay system. You'll see 9 months of your 2007 "raise" taxed along with your entire 2008 income- so you'll wind up with less than if you got it this year. Same thing happened a few years back.

Merry Christmas folks. 

 

[George Wallace]

......... You have to wonder what the pay gods were doing for the past 8 months....fighting for a good deal...and this is all they came up with. Even though they know what they've giving us now, we have to wait until March 08 for the money. 

If you didn't lie in your profile, you must have been hiding under a rock in a drunken stupor for 30+ years, because if you hadn't you would know that there are NO PAY GODS.  Our pay increases are tied into the Public Civil Service Pay Scales.  One Union has ratified their pay increase.  There are still two more to do so.  SO until ALL the Unions of the Public Service have ratified their contracts, our pay increase won't be finalized.  That is too simple to understand.  Stop bitching about something that is out of our (CF) control.  Patience...........and perhaps some of you should read the topic on Entering the CF and YOUR Money for some budgetary pointers in the meantime.

 

[armyvern]

OMG ... I sooooooooo plan on visiting this thread again on 01 April.

Some of you really need to query your CoC as to the reason for the delayed implementation of this raise onto your pay.

*cough cough*

Now you have to remember that the Public Service comprises of more than one UNION.  Until all have ratified their contractual concerns, we must wait.

 

[exgunnertdo]

When I was teaching in Manitoba, anytime we got a retroactive pay adjustment, we got the retro with interest (small, but still, it's the principle of it).  Anyone know if the public service, when they negotiate their contracts, do they get interest on their retro payments?  If they do, we should, right?

 

[cavalryman]

When I was teaching in Manitoba, anytime we got a retroactive pay adjustment, we got the retro with interest (small, but still, it's the principle of it).  Anyone know if the public service, when they negotiate their contracts, do they get interest on their retro payments?  If they do, we should, right?

There is no interest on retroactive pay adjustments in the Public Service.

 

[Bintheredunthat]

Housing is about the same here as it is in Ottawa, but the tax rate here is alot higher (3rd highest in Canada, Ontario is one of the lowest) and the price of everything from groceries, property tax, and fuel is significantly higher.

If an average canadian was required to move to Alberta, from let's say, the maritimes, the rate of pay in Alberta is significantly higher than it would be in other provinces. i.e. an electrician in Halifax making 18$ an hour and he would get 30-40$ an hour in Alberta (just for an example).
Later

Mind sharing where your facts come from WRT tax rates?  Here's all I could dig up because I thought you were a bit off:

http://www.halifax.ca/budget/documents/Whopays_0607.pdf - Result if you don't want to go to the link = Residential for Hfx is 1.29%
http://ottawa.ca/residents/proptaxes/general_info/tax_calculation_en.html - Result = Residential for Ottawa is 1.19% (unless my Math is off).

So 0.1 percent difference is what you are basing your argument on??  Which is 250 dollars a year on a $250,000 home.  For the record, I'm in Kingston.  Where the low end is 1.4%, if you can afford to live on the East side.   :

As for your comment about moving to Alberta, I'm sure you haven't done much shopping for groceries there.  Fly to Edmonton and buy yourself a block of cheese.  And really, do you think someone who makes double the pay in one place can afford a home double the price?

I guess for some, the grass really is greener on the other side of the fence.  Sorry, maybe I'm way off here - but I think the facts & figures are a bit misleading.

Bin

 

[Infantry]

Mind sharing where your facts come from WRT tax rates?  Here's all I could dig up because I thought you were a bit off:

http://www.halifax.ca/budget/documents/Whopays_0607.pdf - Result if you don't want to go to the link = Residential for Hfx is 1.29%
http://ottawa.ca/residents/proptaxes/general_info/tax_calculation_en.html - Result = Residential for Ottawa is 1.19% (unless my Math is off).

So 0.1 percent difference is what you are basing your argument on??  Which is 250 dollars a year on a $250,000 home.  For the record, I'm in Kingston.  Where the low end is 1.4%, if you can afford to live on the East side.   :

As for your comment about moving to Alberta, I'm sure you haven't done much shopping for groceries there.  Fly to Edmonton and buy yourself a block of cheese.  And really, do you think someone who makes double the pay in one place can afford a home double the price?

I guess for some, the grass really is greener on the other side of the fence.  Sorry, maybe I'm way off here - but I think the facts & figures are a bit misleading.

Bin

Here is what I had written : 
Just wondering why we would be getting 374$ a month PLD and your location isn't.  There must be a reason. 
Housing is about the same here as it is in Ottawa, but the tax rate here is alot higher (3rd highest in Canada, Ontario is one of the lowest) and the price of everything from groceries, property tax, and fuel is significantly higher. 


I was refering to the income tax rate, not the property tax.
Here is a link.
http://www.taxtips.ca/tax_rates.htm
as you will notice, it is higher in Nova Scotia than in Ontario.

As you stated, the property tax is higher in Halifax than in Ottawa.  Was I wrong?
(The price of fuel is also, on average about 5-10cents more a litre here.)


If an average canadian was required to move to Alberta, from let's say, the maritimes, the rate of pay in Alberta is significantly higher than it would be in other provinces. i.e. an electrician in Halifax making 18$ an hour and he would get 30-40$ an hour in Alberta (just for an example).

You got my comparison with Alberta misunderstood.  All I said was that civilians have a higher rate of pay there>!!>   Nothing about buying a house for double the price or going grocery shopping.  I was answering a question on PLD.  ie as a reason why Edmonton should get getting a higher PLD


I'm not comparing the color of grass.

 

[BinRat55]

Please correct me if i'm wrong (i'm sure someone will) but when I read the CANFORGEN, I understood "Cost of Living Increase".  See excerpt below, emphases mine:

"THIS ECONOMIC INCREASE IS EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007 AND IS ANTICIPATED TO BE DELIVERED IN YOUR END-MARCH 2008 PAY. REMEMBER THAT PAY ADJUSTMENTS LIKE THESE REMAIN AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN THE LONG-TERM CALCULATION OF YOUR PENSION AND BENEFITS."

Words like "Economic increase" and "Pay adjustment"... Couple that with the fact that it was stated in an earlier CANFORGEN that the "Pay Raise" will be announced when all tables ratify - which has not happened yet.

Is there still more to come?  ???  Just a question, not to cause any controversy...

 

[George Wallace]

"Rate of Inflation"

Is that what you are thinking of?

 

[Infantry]

Please correct me if i'm wrong (i'm sure someone will) but when I read the CANFORGEN, I understood "Cost of Living Increase".  See excerpt below, emphases mine:

"THIS ECONOMIC INCREASE IS EFFECTIVE 1 APRIL 2007 AND IS ANTICIPATED TO BE DELIVERED IN YOUR END-MARCH 2008 PAY. REMEMBER THAT PAY ADJUSTMENTS LIKE THESE REMAIN AN IMPORTANT FACTOR IN THE LONG-TERM CALCULATION OF YOUR PENSION AND BENEFITS."

Words like "Economic increase" and "Pay adjustment"... Couple that with the fact that it was stated in an earlier CANFORGEN that the "Pay Raise" will be announced when all tables ratify - which has not happened yet.

Is there still more to come?   ???  Just a question, not to cause any controversy...

I take economic increase as meaning an increase to compensate for the inflation? If that's the case, that's not the raise that we were waiting for.

 

[armyvern]

:

It's not like it hasn't been strongly suggested in this thread already ...

way back when. Some of you need to re-read.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

I agree with Northernguardian...this announcement is not going to please the majority of folks in the CF. Setting Ottawa as the Baseline is a way of diddling about 6700 people out of PLD...about 10 per cent of our numbers.....and it will reduce the rest of the bases as well. Edmonton will finally get something but it won't be anywhere near what they need to live there. I think it's cold comfort to ask people to think of pension benefits and longer term things when today's needs are more pressing for those with young families to house and feed etc.
I won't be sending the 2 per cent back but in the long run this adjustment is not beneficial me thinks.