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New Ontario Laws for Young Drivers

So, what have been the effect of these "Nanny State" laws on accident rates?

From this source given above.

1988

Ontario population - 9,439,600

Persons killed in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 13.1
Persons injured in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 1,251.7

2005

Ontario population - 12.558,669

Persons killed in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 6.1
Persons injured in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 572.1

Rates of killed and injured in vehicle accidents reduced by half over 17 years.  I wonder what that has done to help control the taxes we would have been paying to provide emergency and health services for all those others who would have been killed or injured without these changes?

It's not just a personal decision, it affects us all in some way. 
 
Michael O`Leary said:
So, what have been the effect of these "Nanny State" laws on accident rates?

From this source given above.

1988

Ontario population - 9,439,600

Persons killed in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 13.1
Persons injured in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 1,251.7

2005

Ontario population - 12.558,669

Persons killed in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 6.1
Persons injured in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 572.1

Rates of killed and injured in vehicle accidents reduced by half over 17 years.  I wonder what that has done to help control the taxes we would have been paying to provide emergency and health services for all those others who would have been killed or injured without these changes?

It's not just a personal decision, it affects us all in some way. 

Your right especially with our medical system coming out of the Taxpayers pockets. I grant you your point that the Stats show there is a direct decrease in the amount of deaths.  How much of that is directly due to increasing " Nanny Law's " is debatable.  For example how much of the deaths and injury were prevented by making the cars over all safer ( airbags, ABS, better headlamps, crumple tech the list goes on.) Sure allot of these improvements were legislated, ( a form of legislation I prefer over increased restrictions over people) Most of those improvements you could argue would of made it into mainstream eventually due to market demands by people wanting those improvements.  How much of those deaths were prevented due to increase " blitz's " by LEO's for existing laws,  such as increase in the ride program? Those were based on existing laws not creating new ones. 

Yes there are laws that can be termed Nany laws that are good ones,  and even most of them as I stated I agree with and follow.  Yet the overall trends we are at now, I can not say I am a fan of.  We have municipal laws that are banning tobogganing down certain hills, ( hey a kid got hurt or died lets ban it,) we have curfews in other jurisdiction ( well the kids will cause less problems.  The list goes on more then I have time to do a cursory search for.  Most of these laws boil down to basic responsibility.  Both on the individuals case and in the parental obligation. 

And as was brought up before by differant proponents, this can be viewed as age based discrimination.  I follow that line of thought but people don't vote, drive, drink until certain ages, we as a society have stated they are not developmentally mature enough to make those sound choices until a certain age.  And that will change depending on the province, country and culture.  Most teens may not agree with this until they are no longer a teen, but the reality is during that timeframe you are still developing, maturing and learning the basics of making sound decisions based on life skills you are learning.  That for driving doesn't really change as you get older.  The first time driver at any age is in the same boat.  They may be fully developed in maturity, but on the road for the first time it is a whole new ball game for anyone at any age.  To learn to drive safely it will take more then just laws to increase your safe driving experience.  It takes a good tutor, DDC or other such courses and experience with all driving conditions.  I don't think anyone should, 1st week of driving, try doing Montreal traffic on the highway.  ( I know may experienced drivers who still cringe at it) but use existing laws and enforce them fully, educate, motivate with incentives. lets slow down the creation new laws or you will have some soon saying that due to heart attacks occurring during snow removal no one over XX age can shovel snow in the winter, they must use those between the age of XX - YY or pay for a company to remove the dangerous snow.
 
Kyle Burrows said:
One issue I have is that I was taught by a licensed driving instructor to always go with the flow of traffic.  By cracking down on the speed laws, it becomes illegal for me to keep up with said flow if it happens to be driving faster than the speed limit.  By not going with the flow I am more likely to be involved in a collision.  Of course,  I'll have to die before anyone can change it back

So he told you to break the law?
 
Regulations of such trivial nature are a guide to the thinking person with common sense, not a straitjacket.
 
Michael O`Leary said:
So, what have been the effect of these "Nanny State" laws on accident rates?

From this source given above.

1988

Ontario population - 9,439,600

Persons killed in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 13.1
Persons injured in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 1,251.7

2005

Ontario population - 12.558,669

Persons killed in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 6.1
Persons injured in all classes, rate per 100,000 - 572.1

Rates of killed and injured in vehicle accidents reduced by half over 17 years.  I wonder what that has done to help control the taxes we would have been paying to provide emergency and health services for all those others who would have been killed or injured without these changes?

It's not just a personal decision, it affects us all in some way. 

I suppose it's also possible that a series of other things affected these rates too. I know my 1988 VW Golf is nowhere near as safe as a brand new 2008 Golf (think how much safer that '88 Golf is compared to a ten year old car of the time). How much of the statistics could be representative of that sheer change in automotive safety and new laws requiring air bags, ABS etc etc? It's a question none of us has the answer to. Likewise, I don't think anyone can say for certain that Graduated Licensing has had that big of an impact. Has it had one? Certainly.

Now, is a driving with a Zero BAC a good idea? Absolutely. Should we outlaw drinking whilst driving for everyone? To prevent accidents related to drinking and driving - we absolutely should.

Smoking kills people. We should ban it outright.

Drinking... ditto. Ban that too.

Obviously we can't do all that (well we COULD I suppose) so instead we design our laws around maximizing personal choice and public safety. Or at least we should.

The problem I have with this suggestion from Ontario is the sheer pointlessness of it. By 21 most drivers are likely still in Graduated licensing and are unable to drink and drive anyhow. Looking at the previous stats (licensed drivers by age) the significant MINORITY of drivers would be those who have completed the Graduated licensing program by 21. So now Timmy (a good random name) who has fully FIVE years of driving experience is now 21 years old. He can't have a beer at Fred's Grey Cup party but Sam, the 22 year old who just finished graduated licensing and has two years of experience (or whatever it would be in Ontario) can. It just doesn't make sense in my mind.

Now how about this odd scenario. Timmy is from Ontario but his 19 year old lab partner Jenny at York University is from Alberta. She has no restrictions on BAC on her license. Is she subject to the Ontario law even though she holds an Alberta license? Of course she is. Does she know that? Does it really matter? What about the thousands of young tourists who cross the border from the US for a weekend piss up in Canada? Guaranteed they don't know. So suddenly we are doing what exactly? Suspending licenses from out of province? Impossible. Impounding cars? Also sketchy, especially for our Southern Friends who have something called "property rights".

I'm just thinking out loud about the myriad ramifications of passing an age based law, rather than a law that rightfully should be applied to the appropriate area of provincial jurisdiction - the drivers license. Every province administers different rules for drivers. Ditto for alcohol. To mix the two outside the auspicies of the Criminal Code is a slippery slope IMO.

Imagine this. In BC you can't buy cigarettes unless you are over 19 (thats easy to imagine), now imagine the province bans smoking while driving for people under 21 since it is a proven distraction. Ridiculous? Yes. Is it actually dangerous? Absolutely, they are SMOKING and DRIVING - two things more or less guaranteed to kill you.

All this just to say that I don't think the goal - reducing deaths and injuries on the road by 19, 20 and 21 year old drunk drivers - is accomplished in any enforceable, reasonable way by the new restriction. The easiest and most legally correct solution is simply to extend the Zero BAC period on Graduated Licenses. This is also by far the cheapest way to administer this change and avoids the endless ream of paperwork that would be found requesting license suspensions from other jurisdictions - only to have those requests flatly denied.

That took too long... my apologies to all. :)


 
Cronicbny said:
I suppose it's also possible that a series of other things affected these rates too. I know my 1988 VW Golf is nowhere near as safe as a brand new 2008 Golf (think how much safer that '88 Golf is compared to a ten year old car of the time). How much of the statistics could be representative of that sheer change in automotive safety and new laws requiring air bags, ABS etc etc? It's a question none of us has the answer to. Likewise, I don't think anyone can say for certain that Graduated Licensing has had that big of an impact. Has it had one? Certainly.

Now, is a driving with a Zero BAC a good idea? Absolutely. Should we outlaw drinking whilst driving for everyone? To prevent accidents related to drinking and driving - we absolutely should.

Smoking kills people. We should ban it outright.

Drinking... ditto. Ban that too.

Obviously we can't do all that (well we COULD I suppose) so instead we design our laws around maximizing personal choice and public safety. Or at least we should.

The problem I have with this suggestion from Ontario is the sheer pointlessness of it. By 21 most drivers are likely still in Graduated licensing and are unable to drink and drive anyhow. Looking at the previous stats (licensed drivers by age) the significant MINORITY of drivers would be those who have completed the Graduated licensing program by 21. So now Timmy (a good random name) who has fully FIVE years of driving experience is now 21 years old. He can't have a beer at Fred's Grey Cup party but Sam, the 22 year old who just finished graduated licensing and has two years of experience (or whatever it would be in Ontario) can. It just doesn't make sense in my mind.

Now how about this odd scenario. Timmy is from Ontario but his 19 year old lab partner Jenny at York University is from Alberta. She has no restrictions on BAC on her license. Is she subject to the Ontario law even though she holds an Alberta license? Of course she is. Does she know that? Does it really matter? What about the thousands of young tourists who cross the border from the US for a weekend piss up in Canada? Guaranteed they don't know. So suddenly we are doing what exactly? Suspending licenses from out of province? Impossible. Impounding cars? Also sketchy, especially for our Southern Friends who have something called "property rights".

I'm just thinking out loud about the myriad ramifications of passing an age based law, rather than a law that rightfully should be applied to the appropriate area of provincial jurisdiction - the drivers license. Every province administers different rules for drivers. Ditto for alcohol. To mix the two outside the auspicies of the Criminal Code is a slippery slope IMO.

Imagine this. In BC you can't buy cigarettes unless you are over 19 (thats easy to imagine), now imagine the province bans smoking while driving for people under 21 since it is a proven distraction. Ridiculous? Yes. Is it actually dangerous? Absolutely, they are SMOKING and DRIVING - two things more or less guaranteed to kill you.

All this just to say that I don't think the goal - reducing deaths and injuries on the road by 19, 20 and 21 year old drunk drivers - is accomplished in any enforceable, reasonable way by the new restriction. The easiest and most legally correct solution is simply to extend the Zero BAC period on Graduated Licenses. This is also by far the cheapest way to administer this change and avoids the endless ream of paperwork that would be found requesting license suspensions from other jurisdictions - only to have those requests flatly denied.

That took too long... my apologies to all. :)

Were you actually trying to say something there?  If you were, I missed the point.
 
George Wallace said:
Were you actually trying to say something there?  If you were, I missed the point.

Wow - thank god I wasn't the only one.  Was starting to think I needed some real strong happy juice after reading it 3 times.
 
I'm totally for making our roads safer, because their not at all right now. However, these proposals are completely unfair for younger drivers (and I say younger because a 19, 20 or 21 year old is not a youth). They are based on age descrimination and in my opinion is not the best way to go about making our roads safer.
 
I have seen countless "experienced" drivers in the ditch or pulled over so far this season, and I have yet to see a "young" driver in the same situations during that same time.
Yet, somehow it is all the youngsters driving too fast and causing all the problems...BS.  I havent seen a young male driver tailgate me yet.  Lots of older drivers and young women though.  Not a slight towards ladies...just an observation from my experiences as a motorcyclist and driver.

I understand that they have to start somewhere in order to increase the safety of our roads, and make people more law abiding.  I also understand that new drivers are the easiest to start with (they can be molded like putty as they have not developed as many bad habits).  But I do hope that if the laws stay in place (I guess I mean only the speed one), they will begin to affect all age/experience groups.

So in short, the only new things I seem to agree with are the speeding and BAC ones to a degree.  I just hope that they extend the focus to everyone over time.
 
Koenigsegg said:
I have seen countless "experienced" drivers in the ditch or pulled over so far this season, and I have yet to see a "young" driver in the same situations during that same time.
Yet, somehow it is all the youngsters driving too fast and causing all the problems...BS.  I havent seen a young male driver tailgate me yet.  Lots of older drivers and young women though.  Not a slight towards ladies...just an observation from my experiences as a motorcyclist and driver.

OK, now explain insurance rates based on recorded accident statistics for young (in particular young male) vs. older drivers.

It would appear that your personal observations may not be statistical significant.

 
It looks like the Ontario Government is backing down on the one passenger restriction.

http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20081208/081208_driving_rules_hm/20081208/?hub=CP24Home

TORONTO — Ontario's Liberal government is backing down from its proposed passenger restrictions on teenage drivers.

The province introduced legislation designed to reduce the number of accidents by young drivers that included a limit of only one teen passenger for drivers 19 and under with a G2 graduated licence.



I think this is a great decision. You can't tell teenagers that they are only able to have one passenger and then encourage them to have a designated driver.
 
Perhaps you should have quoted this part instead:

Transportation Minister Jim Bradley told the legislature today that he is withdrawing the controversial passenger limits from the bill.
 
         I think this is a good move on the Government part . 
 
Sorry for the very late reply.
This is to Michael O'Leary.

I personally cannot explain the insurance rates.  But I can tell you that most of the problems today stem back to previous court cases, and the Bob Rae provincial government trying to change the way the insurance companies did things.  He cost the companies a tonne of money, and then in the end...with in days of the changes being implimented, the government changed their minds.  Huge waste of money.  The people who designed the insurance systems got buggered too, but that's beside the point.
The rates are not entirely based on the statistics, and some of the classes have almost no touch on reality.  I, not knowing much about it myself, will stop there because if I continue I could spout incorrect information, or mix up facts.
But I have it on very good authority that young people are getting screwed unneccessarily.  We've always been getting screwed, yes...no surprise there.  But is outrageous for in some cases no reason.
In order of the rates to be fair, you can't class insurance.  But in order for the insurance companies to stay afloat with our sad court system, insurance has to be classed.  It's a catch 22, and crap rolls down hill.
 
Reviving necrothread to remind you that as of today (1 Aug 10):
.... it will become an offence for any driver 21 or under, regardless of licence class, to have a blood alcohol level above zero. Those drivers who have a blood alcohol level above zero will face:
• an immediate 24−hour licence suspension,
• 30−day licence suspension,
• up to $500 in fines ....
More here.
 
This from the Canadian Press - highlights mine:
A young Toronto man has gone to court to challenge Ontario's new law prohibiting drivers 21 and under from having any alcohol whatsoever in their systems.

Twenty-year-old Kevin Wiener filed his application in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice today, alleging the law that took effect Aug. 1 is unconstitutional because it is based solely on age.

However, the government counters that its law requiring all drivers 21 and under to have a zero blood-alcohol content, regardless of their class of licence, is based on scientific evidence.

It says statistics show accidents involving drinking drivers fall off dramatically after age 22.

Wiener's application will get a hearing in court Nov. 1.

He doesn't have a lawyer yet, but Wiener is hoping all the media attention he's generated by challenging the drinking ban will prompt someone to step forward and offer him legal representation ....
 
I think the law change is a good thing. Most 18yr olds in Ontario look forward to the day they can go into a Liquor store legally and buy a 24 drive to the lake with some buddies and then try to come home. If the stats support the provinces case then too bad. It suck to be a young driver, but the fatalities speak for themselves.
 
As someone who works in an emergency room, I have to say that my anecdotal evidence supports these changes. While I see many MVCs involving alcohol, the under 21 age group is over represented, and tend to be involved in more catastrophic events.
 
Hopefully the Ontario Govt wins the challenge as there are enough issues with young drivers as it is. How will they balance speed, agressive driving, texting and booze?
 
Twenty-year-old Kevin Wiener filed his application in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice today, alleging the law that took effect Aug. 1 is unconstitutional because it is based solely on age.

OK, so let's make it for anyone who hasn't graduated High School and held steady employment for at least two years.  Better? 

And I'm sure the Government can come up with a testing method for those who wish to challenge the requirement, one that will be even more onerous that completing a GED (at least) and getting a job.

 
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