New CF Fitness Policies Coming

[Gunner]

Actually, according to CFAO-50-1 physical fitness is also a leadership responsibility

And your point is?

 

[KevinB]

Actually KevinB, according to CFAO-50-1 physical fitness is also a leadership responsibility - "Leadership is fundamental to program success and therefore the primary responsibility rests with the chain of command to ensure that all members actively participate in regular exercise programs."

:

I refuse to blame the Chain of Command for INDIVIDUAL failures -- if an ENTIRE UNIT is fats and worthless then I could accept that.
  Besides where does it say that they must make time -- just order people to do it at home...  24/7 BABY 

 

[ZipperHead]

Actually, according to CFAO-50-1 physical fitness is also a leadership responsibility - "Leadership is fundamental to program success and therefore the primary responsibility rests with the chain of command to ensure that all members actively participate in regular exercise programs."

This is the one catch-all that most lazy pooch-seducers use as their way out: "My CO didn't come into my office, dress me in PT gear, lead me by the hand on a run....... man, it's his fault that I'm a fat bastard!!!!"

I think the day that I see a CO who has a policy in writing that says: "No soldier in my unit will conduct physical fitness training, either during work hours, or off duty..." is the day that hell will truly freeze over. Until that day comes, they have their bases covered, as EVERY CO that I know of must follow the policy. And every OC. And every Troop Leader/Platoon Commander. Blaming "The Man" for what is a personal responsibility (and when they allocate the time/resources, it is a personal failing if an individual can't achieve the standard) is like blaming McDonald's for getting you fat.

Please stop blaming the system for not providing time/resources/direction. It's there. Use it. I'm begging you. If people spent the same time exercising their body as they did trying to get out of PT, we WOULD have an army full of Olympian's. I remember a saying from my days on the hangar floor: Avoiding work is work in itself...... Just do the work/PT!!!

Al

 

[combatcamera]

KevinB,

Um, if I'm your boss, and you're out of shape - it's in my job mandate, according to CFAO-50-1 and the CDS, to get you into it - period.

 

[ZipperHead]

KevinB,

Um, if I'm your boss, and you're out of shape - it's in my job mandate, according to CFAO-50-1 and the CDS, to get you into it - period.

OK, this where it gets good: how, pray tell, can you FORCE someone to do something that should be willing, ney, wanting to do????? The vision in my mind is the episode of the Simpson's where Homer wants to weigh over 300lbs so he can work at home (don't get any idea's, CADPAT wearing copycats....), and at the end Mr Burns is yelling at Homer, through the old fashioned "megaphone" to do a sit-up. Eventually, he gives up in disgust and says he'll pay for liposuction. Homer: "WOOHOO!!!!"

Please tell me that you would start administrative action. Next stop for tubby: the UMS. There the Golden Chit is handed out: PT at own pace/duration/direction because of an "injury". If you can tell me that there has been ANYBODY cast out of the CF (in the last 5 years) because of their poor physical fitness, I would be utterly and completely gobsmacked. And the Ombudsman's office would soon have a (large) shadow cast in their doorway by the distraught individual.

So what would you do, Combat Camera, to get an individual into shape??? Really, I'm curious. Quoting a CFAO will cause the individual's eyes to glaze over. Yelling will do wonders for their self esteem. Begging is never pretty. Telling somebody who is that far gone that it is their DUTY is going to be lost on them. Or using the word "pride".....

Hasn't it ALWAYS been the CDS's mandate, and his underlings (to have the CF in shape), and look where that has gotten us. Don't get me wrong: I have a lot of time for Gen Hillier (his predecessors, not so much) and he is taking us in the right direction, but words and letters on paper mean nothing if ACTION isn't taken. And how do we get there from here?

The following is an afterthought after my other ranting:

I have had to "counsel" a soldier on this very issue (lack of fitness), and I was careful in my choice of words, and I documented it on his PDR that I would not recommend him for leadership training if he doesn't improve his fitness level. This individual IS making an effort to improve, but he has ulterior motives for this (isn't that always the case: the stick/carrot only works so far). My thinly veiled threats helped speed up the process, I'm sure, but it shouldn't have come to this.

True story (for once): I was a youngish soldier back in the good old early 90's, when you could call someone a fatty and it didn't start a chain of events that ended with a complaint up on the Minister's desk. I was packing on the beef, due to my hard drinking, fast food eating ways. Anyway, I had to squeeze my carcass into my Cornwallis issue CF's for a parade. It was a little..... snug, shall we say. An older corporal looked at me, and said (or words to this effect): "You're a fat fuck. Lose some weight, will ya!!!". There were no tears, only a badly beaten teddy bear back in the shacks, but I stood back, looked at my corpulent figure in the proverbial mirror and said: "He's right. I am a fat fuck!!". So I hit the gym, ate healthy, and ended up in the best shape of my life (at the time). Moral of the story: sometimes the truth will set you free. Not huggy-kissy gobbledy gook about how people are big-boned, or have a genetic predisposition to gaining weight. Boo hoo!! Save it for Oprah.

Al

 

[combatcamera]

Allan,

Since the entire 60,000 Reg Force, as well as some Reserves, are to be PT-tested by this Spring - as directed by the CDS - you'll have to ask him what will follow.  Physical Fitness IS a leadership responsibility.  How can it not be??  Start running buddy.

 

[WogCpl]

Things need to change and hopefully this will do it. Is it a leader ship failure if a CO's troops are out of shape? Let me ask this, is it a leader ship failure if an infantry section can't do a proper quick attack, or should they just automatically go home and practice if they don't get enough time at work to become "fit" at section quick attacks?
First off the leadership needs to allot time for PT and ensure that it is being used to do just that, not soccer or ball hockey, PT!  train for sports, don't use sports to train.
Second it is an individuals responsibility to ensure that they use the time properly to stay fit or get fit.
The blame is not soley on one or the other for failing an express test, but both.
Getting people to take ownership of their fitness, now there is a whole other problem. Right from recruit school in this new CF troops are told what treatment they are entilted to, what kind of pay they are entilted to, they are entitled to play hockey instead of doing pt etc, etc. We have troops in schools that seem to have more "rights" than the instructors that are teaching them, and keep building this feeling of "entitlement" rather than fostering pride in service to country and your brothers and sisters in arms. Heck i even had pride in the disfunctional EME family when i was a young Pte/Cpl. We need to bring back some pride in the army as a whole and maybe some of that "infectious optimism" will bleed down and give troops who think they work for sears or canadian tire (in my trade anyway) some personal pride to stay fit, step up, and be a soldier.

 

[Bert]

This is the one catch-all that most lazy pooch-seducers use as their way out: "My CO didn't come into my office, dress me in PT gear, lead me by the hand on a run....... man, it's his fault that I'm a fat *******!!!!"

I think theres a few perspectives on this Al.  As KevinB and yourself state, it is an individual
responsibility to get into shape and maintain or improve the standard.  However, it is a
leadership responsibility to make sure the unit meets the standard.  

Collective unit PT training is a tool to make everyone work together, the fittest to the least
fit.  When they work together, the leadership can measure and monitor the level.  The
least fit will realize they may need extra training in order to meet the standard or the
standard the unit assumes.

PT left soley to the individual is a bad bad method.  Since everyone is different, they'll train
at different intensities, and achieve or fail to achieve various fitness levels.  Some will
train to be stronger, others faster, others for endurance, some not at all.  I won't get into
attitudes but it factors as well.  When it comes to working together, either deployed or part
of unit training, differences will be more apparent than similarities.  Collective unit training
sets the unit standard, identifies those requiring extra training, and the unit can meet the
requirements together.  This is a leadership issue and in my opinion incorporating a
continual and progressive intensive collective unit PT program is a sound course of action.  

 

[combatcamera]

I don't know what to tell you FatwogCpl, other than Physical Fitness IS a responsibility of leadership.  Hopefully, with this new CF policy/directive, some leaders hands won't be tied as much as they were in the past.  Let's hope it works.

 

[2Charlie]

Always liked this one for parades in S-3's:

"You look like 40 pounds of shit stuffed into a twenty pound Glad bag tied in the middle"

 

[Synthos]

CF members should be given something to aspire to by their leaders (lead by example)
CF members should be motivated to do PT through pride in their unit/Army/CF and the desire to do well/be fit/be ready
CF members should be given a set of standards they are required to acheive. Those standards are the standards of the CF, their occupation, and their unit.
CF members should give their -best- effort to perform PT if they're on chit (swimming, walking, tension bands)

(these are some of the sentiments that have been floating around on this thread)

It's the CO's responsibility to ensure that the fitness standard of the whole unit is at an acceptable level. However, he should also be observing to see whether there are individuals who aren't meeting the standard of the unit or more importantly the CF. The CO should then ensure that those individuals are trained up to the unit/CF's level.
If after continual attempts by the staff to bring the individual up to the CF standard then it is ultimately the individual's responsibility. At that point they had better take a hard look to see whether they want to save their employment in the CF. (at least that's what I think)

I think unit PT is -very- good way to ensure that all the sections/individuals in the unit are on the same page in terms of PT.

There's the unfortunate situation of chit magic working it's wonders, but that is something that may difficult to change. Suggestions have been made to change the wording on the chit.

Hey, but what do I know I'm a private, and it's not my job to think

 

[COBRA-6]

Physical Fitness IS a responsibility of leadership.  Hopefully, with this new CF policy/directive, some leaders hands won't be tied as much as they were in the past.

Physical fitness is a personal responsibility, enforcing physical fitness standards is a leadership responsibility, there's a difference.

 

[greydak]

I just seen the CTV News report on this PT issue...  It shows CF troops from like 1995, in the old helmets and combats; can't DND give them some newer footage to work with?

 

[orange.paint]

  I'm not sure if this is still on topic here,but I figured I'd drop it in here,if for nothing else a rant.

  I frequent the base gym every night ( and if i get home too late i run outside). Last night there was a very very large man approx 350 who must have seen the ATV news the night before on fitness testing.He gets on the treadmill beside me (the ones in the front lobby of the gym in gagetown) does 5 minutes.So I'm already laughing to myself but then he did it....walked over to the chip machine got a bag of lard and a bottle of healthy water, sat down and ate it.Ain't that unbelievable!

"male soldiers under 35 are required to sprint and then do 19 pushups and 19 sit-ups.
Roughly 10 to 15 per cent of those who take the test don't pass or are deemed medically unfit. "CBC news

  Received a phone call about this one,it was my 52 yr old father.Now I only tell him the good army stuff, and when my dad said "thats pathetic" I honestly felt ashamed.Not because I fall into the "triple digit BMI club" but to think if my own father is saying this, how does the rest of the country feel about their dollars going to us?

  Heres my thought on it.If your obese you get verbally warned and given 6 months to lose it.If at that time you cant lose it,marched into shacks,demoted to private,special meal and work out plan until you lose the weight.Then a year probation reassessed to make sure your keeping it up.Then if your fat bye bye.Does that not seem diplomatic enough to work?Maybe classify it as "remedial medical treatment" or some other cool catch phrase to duck under the human rights bulls***.

 Do they ever think this is why they cant get people into the army now?Young guys want adventure and a good hardcore unit/training.Plus if Cpl.Mcfatass goes home and tells his buddies hey man i make 50,000 dollars a year and I'm fat and lazy....why don't you join up guys? It's easy money! What do you think were going to get signing up? When fit soldiers go home on leave and look great and are hard as shit then lazy, fat, slugs, would think twice about signing up.

Just one guys opinion though.

 

[buzgo]

Allan,

Since the entire 60,000 Reg Force, as well as some Reserves, are to be PT-tested by this Spring - as directed by the CDS - you'll have to ask him what will follow.  Physical Fitness IS a leadership responsibility.  How can it not be??  Start running buddy.

Not the ENTIRE reg force:

ALL REG F PERSONNEL AND P RES PERSONNEL ON CONTINUOUS RESERVE SERVICE (CLASS B OR C) FOR A PERIOD EXCEEDING 180 DAYS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THOSE WHO ARE EXEMPT OR MEDICALLY EXCUSED, OR SUBJECT TO A LOCATION EXCUSAL, SHALL BE FITNESS TESTED IAW EXISTING POLICY BY 31 MAR 06 FOR THE 1 APRIL 05/31 MARCH 06 EVALUATION YEAR.

 

[pbi]

I'm shocked by some of the thinking here.

First of all, the post about the Marines is interesting but is in great danger of being triumphantly misused by the ignorant for the support of idleness. 'Overweight" by USMC standards looks NOTHING like the disgusting blimpery we see in our forces. I spent a year on the Quantico base surrounded by Marines of all ranks and MOCs, and another six months in Afgh seeing Marines every day, including travelling out to the Bde AOs. I have visited Lejeune and San Diego, and trained at Pendleton and Twentynine Palms. I never saw a fat, sloppy Marine, ever. Ever. So let's not, for one second, think that because the USMC lightens up on its VERY strict fitness standards (I did the USMC PT test when I was at Quantico: as far as I know there was no gradation for age, only for gender), that they would sink to allowing some of the rubbery, blubbery people we tolerate or justify.
The Marines, a force that is approximately three times the size of our entire CF, have successfully engendered a mentality that encourages Marines to take pride in themselves. That is why you don't see them wandering around with long hair, or sloppy uniforms, or guts sticking out like half-deflated weather balloons.

And, please note, even when they allow the deviation that they do in view of combat operations, they demand that the standard be re-established and hold Marines accountable. This where Gen Hillier wants us to go: the mentality and the accountability.

Next, the issue of fitness by senior officers/WOs. It's not about whether they are more fit than their troops, or whether they are "Olympians". It's about leadership, something that I fear is not fully understood in all quarters of our forces. If you want your people to be fit, you better be as fit as you can be, and they better see you working at it.  We have developed a very sick culture over the years of "do as I say, not as I do" and "I've done my time", both of which are used by people who have the power to do so (or the lack of personal integrity not to care...) to get out of being fit. It sucks, and it's not professional.

After that, let's bury this endlessly recurring argument that somehow, in a tiny, operationally focused force with an expeditionary present and probably even more expeditionary future, we can tolerate MOCs, branches, services or components who think that fitness does not apply to them. Physical fitness is fairly solidly proven to be a contributor to the ability to handle physical and mental stresses, to resist medical problems to a higher degree, to recover from injuries, and is IMHO probably a pretty damned good indicator of attitude toward the profession. Anybody who tries to hide their unfitness behind a capbadge, uniform colour, etc. should just get out IMHO.

Finally, what do I mean by fitness? I do not mean "one person's idea of fitness", and I would hope that this anarchic idea of PT standards was swept away, at least in the Army, some time ago. We have a really excellent Army PT manual. I have a copy, and I have used it for years. How many people here have even looked at it? I do not mean that we can all run 25km and do 50 chin ups. Who could do that? What I mean is that we put our collective chins up, embrace the Army standards (or CF Expres, which represents a BARE minimum of fitness...) and work to be as fit as our age and medical conditions permit. For too lomg too many people have hidden, evaded, malingered or otherwise gotten out of doing PT and PT tests, and as an institution we have done exactly zero in too many cases. Gen Hillier wants to fix that. He wants us to take fitness seriously.

That, IMHO, is what professionals, Regular or Reserve do.

Cheers

 

[FITSUMO]

As an outsider( for now, soon to be a member) looking in, I am saddened to hear about this lack of will to do PT( by some members), be it directed from your leadership or personally driven.  In my civvie job I work 10-16 hours a day 5-6 days a week, while working these hours I have found time to get my big big butt down from 310 to 240 and still am working on it( training for tri's, du's and marathons).  One of the top  reasons I am leaving a high paying  civvie job to join the forces is the PT, at civvie job management looks down on any form of PT.  Members should be striving to be in "fighting" shape ( ie TRAIN THE WAY YOU FIGHT, FIGHT THE WAY YOU TRAIN).  
 Group PT is a great way to improve yourself, if someone does more of something than you can do, try and beat them.  I train with skinnys and by nature they are much faster runners than I am, but because I am slightly competitive and always trying to improve the training with them has helped me get to a 27min 5k, but because they run it in about 23 mins, that is what I want.  

If you are fat( like I am), accept that you are fat, and make it your job to get to FIT, don't complain to the management because someone stated the truth, if it upsets you ( like it does me) and you need a "good cry", do it while you are running or while hitting the weights, people won't notice it as easy(    ).  

The Fitness test that is the policy is not hard.   The forces will help you get to the minimal(unit PT), but the drive has to come from within

Medical chits should only be used if really needed, not as a way to get out of PT.  If you are injured, get healthy and carry on, if you are using a chit to get out of some thing that may save your life one day( PT) then hang your head,  and get out of my way so I can get in faster.

Here is a concept, you should have to do the PT test every 6 months, but you should also be "ambushed" with a suprise test at any given time, that way you have to always be training, not just training for the 2 times a year.

rant done.

 

[Infanteer]

Bravo Zulu PBI - that was right on the money. 

 

[pbi]

Infanteer: Thanks. Methinks I delivered myself of a bit of a rant, but some people are missing the ******* point. They associate fitness and PT with "beasting".

FITSUMO: Good on you. Fight the good fight, and set the example. I have also been overweight and out of shape at one time (I speak with the zeal of the reformed) and I know that you can fight your way back if you want to.

Cheers

 

[trucker00]

I think the CF should dedicate 25% of the day to PT (mandatory). I don't think there is any reason for member to logged on the their computer any earlier than 1000hrs.