New CF Fitness Policies Coming

[Zell_Dietrich]

"No promotion, no pay raises and even the possibility of dismissal from the forces. "
I assume for extream cases.

"The intention isn't to punish those who fail the test. Those who fail will be assigned to fitness classes. "
Sounds like they don't want to loose the skills and talent if it is all possible to keep that person usefull. This is a fair compromise between doing what it takes to keep operational and keeping those in the service in the service.  (Did I just use the word fair to describe a regulation,  I must not understand) :-\

 

[GO!!!]

I can't wait to see the "fitness classes".

Although the CDS said "all soldiers" I have a sneaking feeling that there wont be anyone above the rank of Cpl in those classes. 

RHIP!!

 

[Sf2]

that's cuz officers pass the first time

 

[GO!!!]

Like the Colonel in Trenton who sits on two chairs?

 

[2Charlie]

Watching this from the side lines.

The problem is much deeper.  The CF has been subjected to mandated Social Engineering for over twenty years.  And domestic agenda control for almost thirty five.

The ‘We are a Microcosm of Canadian society’ has come full circle.

The leadership has grown from politically motivated agendas that have had the CF more worried about social engineering and addressing minority integration through business plans than SOLDIERING.

I understand a lot of the sentiment here and ironically, a lot of the folks who will be sitting in Ottawa passing judgment are offspring of the root causes of within the CF.

They have taken the stance of again re-engineering the CF and will do so without remorse.  How it touches them, I will surmise it will not.  Many of the hard liners hide in the Puzzle Palace or the JAG dungeon and will not be touched by something they consider BELOW them.

We seem to forget that it was not long ago that a lot of the hard charging vernacular was removed from the CF lexicon and replaced with business orientated word speak.  It created the environment that this was not a ‘State of Mind’ to be a soldier, but a Job.

And the people who will champion this newfound fitness image from great heights see it as a new business model, will ensure it is executed in a firm and fastidious fashion.  And being as they are just doing a job, it doesn’t affect them.  Good lord I hope they don’t dust off the BMI again…

For those who don’t see my point of view, ask anyone who has worked higher than the 15th floor how the world is seen?  Not to forget, but there are a lot of old dogs up there with ‘chits’ that most legs would kill for.

I miss the days of the WHOLE unit lining up for PT and heading out as a formed unit.  With the odd time the officers would form their own group and run with the CO, mostly because he was a runner and wanted to stress them without destroying the unit.  But that’s another story.

 

[Daidalous]

So pretty much it is summed up with.

Lets enforce what is already law.    Sounds like the liberals and handguns.

 

[armyvern]

So pretty much it is summed up with.

Lets enforce what is already law.    Sounds like the liberals and handguns.

And for those Units with no 'time', let's have the Leadership be accountable for ensuring that they get the personnel resources they require to ensure that they 'make time and enforce the time' to ensure a proper fitness standard.

 

[COBRA-6]

Thats because officers should be as fit, if not fitter then all their troops. Or at least thats how it should be (and from what I hear, its not).

That's the goal.

We had a phrase drilled into our heads at the infantry school - "YOU CAN'T LEAD FROM THE REAR!"

And how can you expect high fitness levels from your troops if you can't meet them yourself? That whole lead by example thing...

 

[AmmoTech90]

I miss the days of the WHOLE unit lining up for PT and heading out as a formed unit.  With the odd time the officers would form their own group and run with the CO, mostly because he was a runner and wanted to stress them without destroying the unit.  But that’s another story.

It was not that long ago (92-94) that all the base staff in Wainwright paraded for PT three days a week in the gym.  Duty pers too.  Once roll call was complete, they took off to their duties and everyone else broke down to groups.  If the duty pers was acually working someone from their section had to account for them.  There was a minivan accompanied by a PERI to take those excused running/walking to the pool, people with their release in formed their own group if they were in the last 30 days to go for a walk if they wanted.  Other than that you ran or circuit trained (-20 or below only).  Yes the running was broken down into three groups (fastest, fast, medium).  The groups were all lead by Sr NCO/WOs and you were only expected to stay in the medium group for a while after you arrived on camp, improvement was required.  The fastest group was lead by the RSM pretty much right up until the day he retired at 55 and only had 10-15 pers in it.

Anyway all this to say where there's a will there's a way.  This regime happened under a fairly weak CO (from my perception as a Cpl at the time) and a strong RSM who believed in PT.  Once the RSM retired the procedure carried on for a few months until the situation changed and we got a stronger CO and a RSM that only had a year to go and was just marking time.

It didn't take long for the normal mindset to take over.  In around a year and a half, when we are back to doing Platoon/Section PT and people are complaining about not having time to do I would mention the old regime and be met with the response, "Well we couldn't do that, there's no time, work to be done"  BS, there isn't a war going on and if one crops up, we should be fit.

So if a camp that had around 150 people on staff (not including the Battle School) could muster 100-120 on PT and support a Battle School and visiting units including constantly rotating British battlegroups it can't be that difficult.  Oh, and no problems with PT failures.

Just an real life example.

 

[buzgo]

Interestingly enough - this made CBC news:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/01/04/forces060104.html

I wonder where they got the info from?

 

[horsegunner353]

I think it's about time somebody decided to actually enforce the standards we claim to espouse. 

The Expres test cannot be considered difficult by any stretch of the imagination. In my opinion, if you consider yourself a soldier and cannot successfully complete it, you have so greviously lapsed in your personal physical fitness that there should be no warnings, no counselling, no remedial PT, just a warm hand shake and an escort to the door.  You would have to be in disgustingly poor physical condition NOT to pass the test!

PT has to be considered what Stephen Covey refers to as a Quadrant 2 activity.... namely something that is important, but not urgent.  His contention is that by focussing on Quadrant 2 activities (physical fitness, relationships with family, personal and professional development) you will establish a strong base of effectiveness that will make everything else easy.    All too often units are quick to cancel PT for various reasons, PER season etc etc. PT has to happen every day.... but not every day has to be a JTF2 fitness test.  It should be the LAST thing to be cancelled, even if that means, God forbid, we have to work until.... shudder....1600 hrs!

During a friends "depart with dignity" retirement speech, he unloaded a tonne of opinions he had been bottling up, inlcuding "Those same guys that are too busy to do PT in the morning, are usually the guys leaving for lunch at 1130 and going home at 1530"

Lets hope this practice sticks.

 

[Synthos]

be careful that you aren't too harsh for a failure of the test, everyone has bad days. A cold, allergies, and a missed meal could easily mean a terrible performance on the test (although you should be better prepared for it, shit happens). A retake of the test (at the least) should be administered before you shove someone out the door.

 

[Haggis]

A cold, allergies, and a missed meal could easily mean a terrible performance on the test (although you should be better prepared for it, crap happens).

The PSP folks issue instructions in advance of the test (no coffee, smoking 2 hrs prior etc.)

A retake of the test (at the least) should be administered before you shove someone out the door.

That is the present policy.  No one should get booted as a result of this "new" approach, unless they're already on C&P for fitness.  If so, kudos to their C of C.

This is a "shot across the bow" (belly?) of the chronically and lazily unfit folks:  You got three months to show you're making an effort and the rest of your career to keep it up.

 

[ZipperHead]

It's funny what the CBC (and all media) take as "news", and if you don't have any insight, it actually sounds impressive (the new policies). But when you read it, it sounds like an abject failure to enforce the BASIC tenets of the military: physical fitness and leadership. If I was an outsider, I would be disgusted by the 10-15% failure rate for the standards that they mention. As an insider, I am extremely disgusted, but that is another story. I think that the average civvy expects the PT standard to be much higher than it is. I'm sure that there are many 40+ year old personnel who see that, and say "Good god, I could do that!!!!". And the fact that young 20-somethings can't is quite disturbing, let alone old broken pers. We are a microcosm of society, but it should be the above average cross section, not the chronically ill, overweight, pathetic cross section.

In regards to someone having a bad day, and not being able to pass on that given day: when there is a minimal standard, the operative word is "minimal". That is the absolute lowest you should achieve. In the military, the standard for most tests is 60%. Anybody who strives for 60%, and no more, is a waste of skin and deserves to get the boot. You should always strive for 100%. Always. You can't be expected to achieve 100%, but that should be your goal. The low standards we have now are not the 100% solution. They are the 60% (I would argue about 25%, but that is my opinion) solution. In other words, if you can't make the standard you have FAILED. So, if you can only make 60% on a good day, what happens when you are sick??? Obviously you will be less than the standard: ergo, you fail. Same as studying for a test: if you only study to get 60%, and you forget the answer to one thing, or blow it, you will fail. Here is a rhetorical question: Your child/mother/girlfriend/whatever is deathly sick. You have a choice of two doctors: one is like Dr Nick from the Simpson's, and the other is the best doctor to ever come out of the best medical school ever. Who would you choose to look after your loved one???? Pretty simple to figure out who anybody would choose. Both are extreme examples of individuals, but the point is this: if the Canadian public wants someone to defend their nation, do they want the 60% (or worse) solution, or the one who strives for 100%??? Again, pretty simple to figure that out. Oh, and by the way, all things being equal, both personnel could be of equal pay grade and/or rank. So is the Canadian taxpayer getting their moneys worth out of the 60% solution??? I would argue no. But obviously, 60% is good enough for government work, so that's what we have come to expect/allow. Should the standard be higher???? Hell yeah!!!! Will people fail with that higher standard???? Hell yeah!!!! Can people try to improve above that standard?? Hell yeah. Remember: The 60% soldier of today is the 60% RSM/CO of tomorrow.....

When many of speak of "the good old days" in regards to PT (like AmmoTech), we had as many hours in the day then as we do now. I'm not really sure if the work load has increased (although some would argue that with the advent of a computer at every desk it has, but that can be mitigated by getting people the hell away from them, and/or educating them on using them effectively, but that is a completely different thread - maybe one worth starting to edumacate the masses). I think the biggest change is in ATTITUDE. When the mindset isn't there to enforce it/conduct it, it won't happen. One and a half hour lunches (or longer) happen all the time. People leave early all the time. Obviously if that can happen, we aren't all that busy. Someone posted a link in regards to Marines being exempt PT testing while in Iraq. Well they are at WAR, so I think they can get that exemption. What is our excuse. There are 24 hours in a day, and 7 days in a week. The hoary old line about being on duty 24/7 (for Reg F and applicable Res F members, anyway) is true: if you can't maintain what is expected of you during work hours, you use "you" time for it. There are reasons (being in a coma) and there are excuses (it's too sunny to go work out) for not doing PT: minimize the excuses, and work through the reasons. An example: Sgt Lorne Ford (a "victim" of the friendly fire bombing in Afghanistan in 02 - I don't consider him a victim, as my example will show, that's why I used quotations) received severe injuries from the incident. I can't remember how long it was after arriving back in Canada, but it couldn't have been more than 2 or 3 months (quite likely less), but I saw him in the Base gym in Edmonton, getting back into the swing of things, and he had/has a strong desire to stay in. He has/had a REASON to stay away from the gym, but didn't. I hear people using excuses like "I rolled my ankle in RV '92, and I just haven't been the same since...." Yeah, Tiger, you got that killer spirit. I mentioned it before, but I was talking with a Dr at the Base here awhile back, and they mentioned a newly posted in individual who had been on Light Duties for 12 YEARS!!!!!! No shit. That's a definite failure in the system (medical and administrative), and in leadership.

I'm sure that there are enough of us at the (somewhat) pointy end that are getting sick of the BS, and hopefully there will be enough at the Puzzle Palace on the Rideau to shake things up (though I won't hold my breath on that one....), and use the teeth that the policies have (actually always had) to change a few (thousand) attitudes.

Al

 

[Proud Canadian]

A cold, allergies, and a missed meal could easily mean a terrible performance on the test (although you should be better prepared for it, crap happens).

army mentality - suck it up and deal with it. Drive the body 100%

Be proud of the uniform you wear. I never joined the army for the money but for someone in their 20's at a corporal rank and above making more than 40 grand a year should be an incentive itself. Would you like to risk 40 grand and above, great medical, security and pension because your lazy and failed your very easy non-strenuous express test. Crap have you seen what other countries have for their tests. Makes our look like a joke.

 

[AmmoTech90]

I wasn't cheering the "good old days of PT".  I was cheering the attitude of that one person in senior leadership and how when that person left things changed in the blink of an eye.

If the CDS can provide that change of attitude things should improve for a few years.  But everything goes in cycles, all we need is change in leadership, either political or military and all these improvements will be gone faster than you can say RMA.

I agree with Allan that you should be able to pass the minimal standard at any time in any condition, barring serious injury.  I have to say that the EXPRES test is a minimal standard.  I did my first shuttle run express test a month ago and was amazed how easy it was.  However it is apparently a measure of people performance against the general population.  A pass is exceeding the 20th percentile of performance.  This means that if you get the bare minimum to pass 80 percent of the general (non-military) population is fitter than you.  If a hung-over, hay fever ridden, just been dumped soldier cannot do as well as 80% of the general population, well, then you better be looking for the broken leg he's dragging along.


PS

I for one would like to see where in Gagetown people have hour and half lunches and leave early.  If any of them are in Ops or Training I would like to have words because those are the cells who always caused us problems due to someones inability to plan.  Here I was blaming it on CO's deciding to have exercises at the last minute, maybe it's because you cant let work interfere with lunch.

 

[Spartan]

So if this is applicable (or the upcoming policies)to ALL CF members  - inclusive of type - does this mean that the Reserves  - subsection CIC - will be also affected equally across the board and enforced as such?

 

[KevinB]

PT is an INDIVIDUAL responsibility.

Don't have time at work - suck it up do it on your own. PERIOD.

I am no longer in the CF - I dont get time at work to do PT - but since my job requires me to wear body armour carry a carbine and handgun and remain effective while doing activites common sense dictates I do my own (and my team does) PT.

Suck it up Princesses - you want to be the in the CF - buck up and be FIT -- or hit the road.


IF Gen Hillier can run everyday down Col By Drive regardless of weather - I am sure the rest of the CF should be able to follow his inspiration.

 

[Gunner]

IF Gen Hillier can run everyday down Col By Drive regardless of weather - I am sure the rest of the CF should be able to follow his inspiration.

That's a key point Kevin, leadership by example.  Gen Hillier has been a consistent long distance runner for years.

General Hillier enjoys most recreational pursuits but, in particular, runs slowly, plays hockey poorly and golfs not well at all.

http://www.cds.forces.gc.ca/pubs/bio_e.asp

 

[combatcamera]

Actually KevinB, according to CFAO-50-1 physical fitness is primarily a leadership responsibility - "Leadership is fundamental to program success and therefore the primary responsibility rests with the chain of command to ensure that all members actively participate in regular exercise programs."