New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Harrigan]

I too, am fine with the PM (any PM) circumventing contracting and procurement rules. At the end of the day, he is the final arbtrar of those rules and wears the results- good or bad.

I will admit that I am surprised at these responses.  I would have thought that we would have expected our senior leaders to follow the same rules that we must operate under.  Apparently not. 

If "ends justifty the means", which is what you are saying, then I look forward to seeing the responses should the Liberal government announce that they have decided to do away with any selection process for a new fighter that would include the F-35, and just directly buy a hundred more old F-18's, or some more second-hand jets from somewhere that might benefit them politically.  op:

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I will admit that I am surprised at these responses.  I would have thought that we would have expected our senior leaders to follow the same rules that we must operate under.  Apparently not. 

If "ends justifty the means", which is what you are saying, then I look forward to seeing the responses should the Liberal government announce that they have decided to do away with any selection process for a new fighter that would include the F-35, and just directly buy a hundred more old F-18's, or some more second-hand jets from somewhere that might benefit them politically.  op:

My point is: the buck ultimately stops with the PM. Much (most?) of procurement rules in Canada are not "law". They are departmental procedure. Much of it is designed to give cover for bureaucrats, so no one gets blamed.

If the Governor in Council decides Canada needs to buy something (anything really) urgently enough, somebody in PSPC is going to say...what, exactly?

Sure, there may almost certainly be a price to be paid, politically (but not always. See: sole sourcing of C17s).

I stand by my original statement- if the PM and cabinet (of any political stripe) decide something needs to be bought urgently enough, PSPC rules are now to be damned.

 

[MarkOttawa]

The "buck", under the Westminster system, should not stop with the PM but rather the Governor-in-Council, i.e. the cabinet.  But over the last forty years or so our actually-existing system has in fact become de facto presidential though without the checks and balances that, at least normally (Trump), function within the US system.

In real terms the PCO/PMO is much more powerful/effective than the White House staff in controlling the day-to-day functioning as a whole and in detail of the respective governments.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MilEME09]

My point is: the buck ultimately stops with the PM. Much (most?) of procurement rules in Canada are not "law". They are departmental procedure. Much of it is designed to give cover for bureaucrats, so no one gets blamed.

If the Governor in Council decides Canada needs to buy something (anything really) urgently enough, somebody in PSPC is going to say...what, exactly?

Sure, there may almost certainly be a price to be paid, politically (but not always. See: sole sourcing of C17s).

I stand by my original statement- if the PM and cabinet (of any political stripe) decide something needs to be bought urgently enough, PSPC rules are now to be damned.

I agree, look at the leopard 2 or C17 purchase, if the system wants to move quickly it can. It's protecting peoples kingdoms,and justifying jobs by dragging things out even longer then necessary. As an example a friend pointed out to me, us and the British started a project to replace our service pistols at the same time. Two years later they had new pistols, and we are apparently 10 years away from new ones.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I stand by my original statement- if the PM and cabinet (of any political stripe) decide something needs to be bought urgently enough, PSPC rules are now to be damned.

There are actually rules for emergency procurement that basically bypasses the standard contracting process, but needs the right level of approval and circumstances. They fast tracked stuff for Afghanistan, but there is a separate procedure for an actual emergency where they can direct the contract and get work started before the details are finalized (ie the tow of ATH back in 2015 when it got stuck on a reef of Cape Breton).

All the Cons did for the Davie contract is adjust one of the exceptions to the normal rules at the Cabinet level and make it happen.  There was a huge amount of staff work that went into the background of that, but it was all according to the rules of the day.

Not really rocket surgery why they went after Norman; it was pure politics. Absolutely greasy dirty pool, and sounds like they selectively held back critical information that would have exonerated him, while the investigators put the blinders on and didn't chase threads to their obvious conclusions.

On the plus side, when it became apparent they had gotten sand bagged, the crown stayed the charges, but BS that it took years for that to come out.

Personally had a lot of respect for VAdm Norman, and he was someone that made me think that maybe it's not just koolaid. Watching him get run killed any vestige of loyalty to the institution, so just making things better for the sailors that keeps it from just being a job where you punch the clock.

 

[HB_Pencil]

There are actually rules for emergency procurement that basically bypasses the standard contracting process, but needs the right level of approval and circumstances. They fast tracked stuff for Afghanistan, but there is a separate procedure for an actual emergency where they can direct the contract and get work started before the details are finalized (ie the tow of ATH back in 2015 when it got stuck on a reef of Cape Breton).

All the Cons did for the Davie contract is adjust one of the exceptions to the normal rules at the Cabinet level and make it happen.  There was a huge amount of staff work that went into the background of that, but it was all according to the rules of the day.

Not really rocket surgery why they went after Norman; it was pure politics. Absolutely greasy dirty pool, and sounds like they selectively held back critical information that would have exonerated him, while the investigators put the blinders on and didn't chase threads to their obvious conclusions.

On the plus side, when it became apparent they had gotten sand bagged, the crown stayed the charges, but BS that it took years for that to come out.

Personally had a lot of respect for VAdm Norman, and he was someone that made me think that maybe it's not just koolaid. Watching him get run killed any vestige of loyalty to the institution, so just making things better for the sailors that keeps it from just being a job where you punch the clock.

Oh... the Davie Clause! Section 3.1 (G) of the GCR... Where if you need an urgent "Interim" capability, you can get something outside of the normal process.

Hmmm, urgent requirement to address a capability gap... "Interim" capability... where have I heard that before?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Oh... the Davie Clause! Section 3.1 (G) of the GCR... Where if you need an urgent "Interim" capability, you can get something outside of the normal process.

Hmmm, urgent requirement to address a capability gap... "Interim" capability... where have I heard that before?

I honestly am not really sure what you are getting at.

In context of the times, we went from two old AORs to zero very quickly when PRO had the fire and PRE was found to be rusted out and unseaworthy.

The Asterix is filling in while the JSS project is running through as part of the NSS, and only provides a portion of the full capability, so it is an interim capability.  It's a long time scale, but lets us get gas at sea while the project trickles it's way through the GoC process.  They've got the design mostly done, and are actively building portions of it, so unless we do something genius like cancel the project (and pay full ship cost for no ship) just playing the hurry up and wait game until we finally have an AOR of our own. We've already signed the ISSC for that as well, so given that we've bought the design, the steel, major systems, spare parts and a 20+ year maintenance/training plan, it's not exactly a pipe dream anymore.

 

[Good2Golf]

I honestly am not really sure what you are getting at.

In context of the times, we went from two old AORs to zero very quickly when PRO had the fire and PRE was found to be rusted out and unseaworthy...

^this :nod:

There is not even a fine line between:

AOR: 3 > 2 > 0 (with an extant cadre of AOR-skilled sailors to operate one or more vessels of type)

...and...

CF-188: 138 > 85 > 73 > 60-ish?  (with a shortage of pilots and techs to fully operate and sustain the current fleet)

Regards
G2G

 

[Stoker]

I honestly am not really sure what you are getting at.

In context of the times, we went from two old AORs to zero very quickly when PRO had the fire and PRE was found to be rusted out and unseaworthy.

The Asterix is filling in while the JSS project is running through as part of the NSS, and only provides a portion of the full capability, so it is an interim capability.  It's a long time scale, but lets us get gas at sea while the project trickles it's way through the GoC process.  They've got the design mostly done, and are actively building portions of it, so unless we do something genius like cancel the project (and pay full ship cost for no ship) just playing the hurry up and wait game until we finally have an AOR of our own. We've already signed the ISSC for that as well, so given that we've bought the design, the steel, major systems, spare parts and a 20+ year maintenance/training plan, it's not exactly a pipe dream anymore.

I always wondered in regards to the Asterix exactly what were the requirements from the RCN in the first place, we have over the top cabins, gyms, multi-configurable spaces etc that seems not in the list of requirements for the RCN or way over the requirements for an interim vessel.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

https://gcaptain.com/seaspan-delivers-first-large-vessel-built-under-canadas-national-shipbuilding-strategy/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Gcaptain+%28gCaptain.com%29

 

[HB_Pencil]

I honestly am not really sure what you are getting at.

In context of the times, we went from two old AORs to zero very quickly when PRO had the fire and PRE was found to be rusted out and unseaworthy.

The Asterix is filling in while the JSS project is running through as part of the NSS, and only provides a portion of the full capability, so it is an interim capability.  It's a long time scale, but lets us get gas at sea while the project trickles it's way through the GoC process.  They've got the design mostly done, and are actively building portions of it, so unless we do something genius like cancel the project (and pay full ship cost for no ship) just playing the hurry up and wait game until we finally have an AOR of our own. We've already signed the ISSC for that as well, so given that we've bought the design, the steel, major systems, spare parts and a 20+ year maintenance/training plan, it's not exactly a pipe dream anymore.

I think you've misread what I was trying to say here Pete, I didn't have a problem with the Asterix or how it was pushed through, although the story of how it came about still has a lot of pork sausage ground in than is generally understood in the public. Rather I find it funny how the Davie Clause was the method several years later to justify the purchase of a capability that was far more damaging to the RCAF and the military as a whole, in regards to the Super Hornet.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Maybe I'm just a bit sleep deprived, but I'm going to need a map to get from that point A to B and the link to the Superhornet (which I thought was shelved?).  They can use the same justification for anything that fits; whether or not the outcome makes the most sense is a different issue all together.

The JSS project is something like 40 years old and this is attempt no 3, so there were a whole lot of balls dropped before now that led to the AORs self retiring. Probably a common theme amongst most equipment where we replace it well after it's due for whatever reason, and sometimes it falls apart beforehand to leave us in with a big capability gap. There was a bunch of work beforehand when the two AORs were winding down and JSS was delayed by the failed procurement then  pushed right, but then we lost both AORs three or four years earlier than planned, so it got bumped up the priority list and got pretty quick approval from Cabinet.

 

[Underway]

I always wondered in regards to the Asterix exactly what were the requirements from the RCN in the first place, we have over the top cabins, gyms, multi-configurable spaces etc that seems not in the list of requirements for the RCN or way over the requirements for an interim vessel.

From what I understood it was essentially a list of only a few things.  RAS capability for DFO, JP5, Heavy Jackstay (for food, frozen and fresh).  VERTREP (flight deck) might have been on that list for the added transfer capability.  Everything else were add ons that Davie did on their own.  The cabins etc... were because those are the minimum standard for merchant marine.  The navy folks were wondering how they were going to get sailors off of the ASterix because the conditions were so plush, and the civilian Capt was wondering how he was going to retain civilian crew because the conditions were so primitive (no hot tub?  blasphemy!)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

CCG prefers the term "Hypothermia rewarming treatment device" to Hot Tub.  8)

 

[daftandbarmy]

The JSS project is something like 40 years old and this is attempt no 3, so there were a whole lot of balls dropped before now that led to the AORs self retiring.

That's a keeper  :nod:

 

[Swampbuggy]

From what I understood it was essentially a list of only a few things.  RAS capability for DFO, JP5, Heavy Jackstay (for food, frozen and fresh).  VERTREP (flight deck) might have been on that list for the added transfer capability.  Everything else were add ons that Davie did on their own.  The cabins etc... were because those are the minimum standard for merchant marine.  The navy folks were wondering how they were going to get sailors off of the ASterix because the conditions were so plush, and the civilian Capt was wondering how he was going to retain civilian crew because the conditions were so primitive (no hot tub?  blasphemy!)

Would it be reasonable to assume that Davie tricked the ship out in order to make it more appealing for a potential international buyer after the lease term is up with the RCN? It’s really also a floating showcase for Davie as well as gas and groceries for the Navy, right?

 

[Stoker]

Would it be reasonable to assume that Davie tricked the ship out in order to make it more appealing for a potential international buyer after the lease term is up with the RCN? It’s really also a floating showcase for Davie as well as gas and groceries for the Navy, right?

I was on the ship for an extensive tour just before it was unveiled to the public. Much was made of the accommodations with the Hudson bay blankets on the beds, the gym, wi-fi, laundry service and everything else. Much of it was over the top it seems as already mentioned. It was part of an aggressive marking campaign to sell the sister ship to the RCN and sell the ships to other countries like you said. Seeing what the PR rep for Davie is posting on other military forums, they expect the RCN to buy the ship. I can't really blame them I suppose. I also find it interesting that so far no landing craft was purchased for the ship yet, I assume the RCN looks to the ship to be only a floating gas can.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It would actually be good for Canada if people started buying our naval ship designs and if retention is a problem, having a comfortable ship is not exactly a curse.

 

[Swampbuggy]

I was on the ship for an extensive tour just before it was unveiled to the public. Much was made of the accommodations with the Hudson bay blankets on the beds, the gym, wi-fi, laundry service and everything else. Much of it was over the top it seems as already mentioned. It was part of an aggressive marking campaign to sell the sister ship to the RCN and sell the ships to other countries like you said. Seeing what the PR rep for Davie is posting on other military forums, they expect the RCN to buy the ship. I can't really blame them I suppose. I also find it interesting that so far no landing craft was purchased for the ship yet, I assume the RCN looks to the ship to be only a floating gas can.

It’s too bad they haven’t gotten around to the auxiliary craft for the ASTERIX. Between the landing craft and mexiflote options, I think they’re missing the boat (ha!) on a great HADR capacity. Maybe they’ll go that way when the JSS come online, if they retain ASTERIX.

 

[Stoker]

It would actually be good for Canada if people started buying our naval ship designs and if retention is a problem, having a comfortable ship is not exactly a curse.

Actually the comfort piece on Asterix is becoming a problem especially when young sailors rotate back to the fleet. The Asterix wasn't never going to be an export item with cheaper options out there with greater redundancy.