New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Colin Parkinson]

I note that Seaspan now has all 3 OSFV under construction and planning is underway for the OOSV. The First OSFV is about 75% complete, looks like they are just fitting her out and all major modules are attached. I suspect they will gain some time back on the next 2. The OOSV appears to be a longer version of the OSFV's so it should go well also. If things go right there should be 3 ships under construction at all times.

 

[jmt18325]

Maybe they can get some Australian management instead so we can run a shipbuilding program on time

Like the Hobart class.....

 

[MilEME09]

Like the Hobart class.....

Just saying at this point in time they do have more experience building ships

 

[jmt18325]

Just saying at this point in time they do have more experience building ships

Definitely true - on the other hand, it looks like this plan will soon produce a ship.  It's taken a while, but, funding contingent, this thing is finally doing what it's supposed to do.

 

[MarkOttawa]

jmt18325:

...it looks like this plan will soon produce a ship.  It's taken a while, but, funding contingent, this thing is finally doing what it's supposed to do.

At what ludicrously inflated cost and ridiculous delays?  And now need foreign workers for those Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!

BALLS-UP!

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jmt18325]

The reality is, most of the people working there aren't foreign workers.  I still would argue that it's good to have this industry.  I'd argue the same about Bombardier.

 

[NavyShooter]

*It would be good to have this industry as a competitive one, not one that can only survive on over-inflated government contracts.

 

[jmt18325]

*It would be good to have this industry as a competitive one, not one that can only survive on over-inflated government contracts.

I think it's valuable as a strategic asset and employment driver.  It's also important to remember that money spent here stays here.  It would be interesting to know the net cost of sending contracts out of Canada.

 

[Kirkhill]

I don't care if Canadian built ships cost 10 times Dutch built ships.  All you have to do is inflate the defence budget by a factor of 10.  After all the money is spent here in Canada.

The fact that we don't continues to suggest to me that governments, especially Liberal ones, love to inflate the costs so as to maximize the amount of money pumped into the economy while minimizing capabilities it might be expected to employ.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We need a ship building/repair industry, we don't "need" it to be Irving, or Davie, or Seaspan. The NSPS was a good idea, but it was 20 years late, so no matter what we do, it's not enough and it costs way more, because the yards had to catch up as well.

 

[jmt18325]

A little short term pain is worth some long term gain, I think.

 

[MarkOttawa]

We don't demand a jet fighter manufacturing industry in Canada, a tactical/strategic airlifter one, a medium-lift helo one--nor tank and artillery making.  What's so special about things that float on water (we don't demand U-Boat building either)?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Lumber]

We don't demand a jet fighter manufacturing industry in Canada, a tactical/strategic airlifter one, a medium-lift helo one--nor tank and artillery making.  What's so special about things that float on water (we don't demand U-Boat building either)?

Mark
Ottawa

Irving.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We don't demand a jet fighter manufacturing industry in Canada, a tactical/strategic airlifter one, a medium-lift helo one--nor tank and artillery making.  What's so special about things that float on water (we don't demand U-Boat building either)?

Mark
Ottawa

You can certainly argue the point, but if you don't build ships here, you will not have the ability to do any repair to them. That is the reality and then there is the political cost of spending that much outside of the country. As long as money is flowing into peoples pockets and into the local economy people will stomach quite the price tag. For very specialized equipment, people will accept the overseas argument, but for a ship they will ask "Why can't we do that?" 

 

[Kirkhill]

A ship is little more than a tin dugout with an inboard motor.  What differentiate ships is all the stuff that the dugout keeps afloat.

When looking at the supply chain for NSPS can anybody answer how many Canadian firms insert themselves along that chain between the foreign manufacturer and the finished vessel?  Each one of them taking their 25% and engineering?  How many foreigners? 

My sense of the possible markups are that Manufacturing sells to Distribution who sells to Marketing who sells to Region who sells to Agent who sells to Integrator who sells to System supplier who sells to shipbuilder who sells to end user.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The number of suppliers for a ship can be staggering, which is why a lot of smaller companies often orbit around a successful shipyard.

 

[Kirkhill]

Agreed there are a bunch of moving parts.

But I have told this tale before.

A plant in BC required a spare valve.  It talked to the vendor in Scarborough which talked to its marketing department in Sweden who talked to the After Sales Department in another Swedish town which talked to a European distributor in Belgium who talked to a supplier in Germany who went to US manufacturer who talked to the Canadian supplier in Brantford Ontario.

The original price of the valve was $1200.  The price to the BC client was $10,000.  The difference between the stock Canadian valve and the "European" valve was ASME flanges vs DIN flanges.

Supply chain management.

 

[chrisf]

A ship is little more than a tin dugout with an inboard motor.  What differentiate ships is all the stuff that the dugout keeps afloat.

That's a bit of an over simplification isn't it?

When looking at the supply chain for NSPS can anybody answer how many Canadian firms insert themselves along that chain between the foreign manufacturer and the finished vessel?  Each one of them taking their 25% and engineering?  How many foreigners?

My sense of the possible markups are that Manufacturing sells to Distribution who sells to Marketing who sells to Region who sells to Agent who sells to Integrator who sells to System supplier who sells to shipbuilder who sells to end user.

And? That's literally how any modern supply chain works.

Ships are delivered as a group of system, which each individual system delivered directly by the yard (Either the yard directly, or a division of the same company owning the yard) or by a sub contractor.

With the many of the major systems, the sub-contractor will also be the manufacturer (Engines, propulsion, generation, etc)

 

[chrisf]

We don't demand a jet fighter manufacturing industry in Canada, a tactical/strategic airlifter one, a medium-lift helo one--nor tank and artillery making.  What's so special about things that float on water (we don't demand U-Boat building either)?

Mark
Ottawa

Nothing, except a yard that can build warships can build pretty much any sort of civilian ship. Facilities, and skills of the craftsmen employed are common to pretty much any sort of ship building.

Requiring a ship to be built in Canada helps to ensure the industry exists to build other ships (I'm not saying it's particularly effective)

Any of the other industries you mention require changes in production facilities to produce other products.

 

[MarkOttawa]

We could do what Dutch do with Damen--build hulls in Romania and ship home for finishing (Aussies did same with Navantia LHD); but for some reason metal-bashing jobs at extortionate cost are deemed essential to  Canadian politicians.

http://www.damen.com/en/companies/damen-shipyards-galati?mId=10128

http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/ships-boats-craft/lhd

Mark
Ottawa